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Background Check? What About Form 4473 Part 2, Section D?

Captain Adverse

Captain Adverse

Classical Liberal Sage
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People tend to focus on the background check as a useful tool in identifying people who should not own guns, and preventing them from purchasing guns through licensed dealers.

I've always argued against this practice because it serves to identify citizens who are seeking to own a weapon, since the forms are kept as a record by the Federal government.

Not having any interest in buying a gun, I never really looked into the requirements. When I did for the sake of informed debate, I also focused on the value (negligible IMO) of the Buyer's form: Part 1.

Did anyone notice that the Seller also fills a form out; Part 2? Or that Part 2 Section D requires the Seller to list the Make, Model, Serial Number, Type and Caliber of each weapons sold? This is also kept as a record by the Federal government.

This means that every time a person buys a gun from a licensed dealer, the government gets a record of the weapon(s) purchased!

Here I thought it was just a method to limit gun ownership, which was bad enough. Finding out they know who has what too? Makes me all the more opposed to Background checks.
 
The dealer does not keep the name of the buyer, simply the gun that they owned and sold. The Feds are not allowed to retain the records as it would smack of Registration which they are not allowed to do. If they attempted to keep and use any "lists" it would be them that would be in hot water legally speaking.
 
Casper said:
The dealer does not keep the name of the buyer, simply the gun that they owned and sold. The Feds are not allowed to retain the records as it would smack of Registration which they are not allowed to do. If they attempted to keep and use any "lists" it would be them that would be in hot water legally speaking.
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Really? Then where does this Part 2 go if not to the ATF? I am honestly ignorant of the process.

I would never follow the program anyway if I ever felt the need to arm myself. I consider the whole process an unnecessary infringement.
 
Captain Adverse said:
Really? Then where does this Part 2 go if not to the ATF? I am honestly ignorant of the process.

I would never follow the program anyway if I ever felt the need to arm myself. I consider the whole process an unnecessary infringement.
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They keep them for a set time per law then destroy them.
 
Casper said:
They keep them for a set time per law then destroy them.
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Why? What's the purpose if there is no monitoring or reporting requirement? Why the need to fill one out at all?

Well after some research...

The dealer also records all information from the Form 4473 into a required "bound-book".[3] A dealer must keep this on file at least 20 years, and is required to surrender the log to the ATF upon retirement from the firearms business. The ATF is allowed to inspect, as well as request a copy of, the Form 4473 from the dealer during the course of a criminal investigation.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Form_4473

So it DOES give the Feds the information, eventually.
 
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Captain Adverse said:
People tend to focus on the background check as a useful tool in identifying people who should not own guns, and preventing them from purchasing guns through licensed dealers.

I've always argued against this practice because it serves to identify citizens who are seeking to own a weapon, since the forms are kept as a record by the Federal government.

Not having any interest in buying a gun, I never really looked into the requirements. When I did for the sake of informed debate, I also focused on the value (negligible IMO) of the Buyer's form: Part 1.

Did anyone notice that the Seller also fills a form out; Part 2? Or that Part 2 Section D requires the Seller to list the Make, Model, Serial Number, Type and Caliber of each weapons sold? This is also kept as a record by the Federal government.

This means that every time a person buys a gun from a licensed dealer, the government gets a record of the weapon(s) purchased!

Here I thought it was just a method to limit gun ownership, which was bad enough. Finding out they know who has what too? Makes me all the more opposed to Background checks.
Click to expand...

Why, exactly, is it a problem for the government to be able to identify the owner of a firearm? It doesn't impede anyone's ability to own one, so as far as I can tell, it only is problematic for people who use them criminally.

Similarly, with background checks, what's the problem for people who are allowed to own firearms?
 
Captain Adverse said:
People tend to focus on the background check as a useful tool in identifying people who should not own guns, and preventing them from purchasing guns through licensed dealers.

I've always argued against this practice because it serves to identify citizens who are seeking to own a weapon, since the forms are kept as a record by the Federal government.

Not having any interest in buying a gun, I never really looked into the requirements. When I did for the sake of informed debate, I also focused on the value (negligible IMO) of the Buyer's form: Part 1.

Did anyone notice that the Seller also fills a form out; Part 2? Or that Part 2 Section D requires the Seller to list the Make, Model, Serial Number, Type and Caliber of each weapons sold? This is also kept as a record by the Federal government.

This means that every time a person buys a gun from a licensed dealer, the government gets a record of the weapon(s) purchased!

Here I thought it was just a method to limit gun ownership, which was bad enough. Finding out they know who has what too? Makes me all the more opposed to Background checks.
Click to expand...

actually you are right and wrong. more right then wrong. The 4473 stays with the dealer. If the dealer shuts down, then the Dealer has to send records of a certain amount of years to the ATF. the Government doesn't have a record of those 4473 and cannot go around and collect that information stored in thousands of gun dealers offices. The NICS check only gets a name and the type (pistol or longer) gun someone is buying.

However, here is how there is some "registration"

years ago, a boy I helped coach made the Olympic team as a shooter. He set two world records. At some point-maybe when he graduated college or maybe when he set the record, I gave him a Beretta pistol I bought from a dealer friend of mine. The boy at the time worked at a bar as security and carried the pistol as part of his duties.


years later (maybe twenty) I get a call from my buddy who owns the shop. He said a Beretta I had bought had been recovered by the Police during a traffic stop for DUI and minor weed possession. They called the ATF who called Beretta and Beretta gave them the wholesaler where the gun was shipped, the wholesaler gave the ATF the retail dealer and the dealer had my 4473. He told the ATF that he believed I had given the gun as a gift and probably no longer had an interest in it. The guy who was stopped said he had bought the pistol from my friend and the ATF wanted proof that was true. SO I called my friend and he confirmed that when he quit working at the bar, he ended up selling it to another guy who worked at the bar. SO I called the ATF and told them that I no longer had an interest in the gun (or I might have told the dealer who told the ATF-I cannot recall exactly). what happened after that, I don't know

Now that means the ATF has the means of at least tracking a retail gun sale to the retail buyer from the dealer. But after that, no. If I had said I DO NOT RECALL who I gave the gun or sold the gun to, the ATF wouldn't know if the guy found with it was a legitimate owner. but in this case-because I keep records and have a good memory, I know exactly what happened to the gun and the second owner confirmed it
 
Paleocon said:
Why, exactly, is it a problem for the government to be able to identify the owner of a firearm? It doesn't impede anyone's ability to own one, so as far as I can tell, it only is problematic for people who use them criminally.

Similarly, with background checks, what's the problem for people who are allowed to own firearms?
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If they know you own one, they can come get it as soon as they can have it placed on a proscribed list.
 
Captain Adverse said:
If they know you own one, they can come get it as soon as they can have it placed on a proscribed list.
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Sure. And if they want your car, they have it on a list and can come get it. If they have your SSN, they could seize your assets if they saw fit, etc.

Should we abolish all government records?
 
TurtleDude said:
actually you are right and wrong. more right then wrong. The 4473 stays with the dealer. If the dealer shuts down, then the Dealer has to send records of a certain amount of years to the ATF. the Government doesn't have a record of those 4473 and cannot go around and collect that information stored in thousands of gun dealers offices. The NICS check only gets a name and the type (pistol or longer) gun someone is buying.
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Well, you mean not yet. The fact that the records are required, and must be maintained for 20 years, means that at any time Congress feels it has sufficient support from a growing gun control population...they can amend the law.
 
Captain Adverse said:
Well, you mean not yet. The fact that the records are required, and must be maintained for 20 years, means that at any time Congress feels it has sufficient support from a growing gun control population...they can amend the law.
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true enough
 
Paleocon said:
Sure. And if they want your car, they have it on a list and can come get it. If they have your SSN, they could seize your assets if they saw fit, etc.

Should we abolish all government records?
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Are you really supplying a short list of Statist rules to a Libertarian and expect agreement with your position? :)
 
Captain Adverse said:
Are you really supplying a short list of Statist rules to a Libertarian and expect agreement with your position? :)
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So you're against driver licensing?

And answer yes or no to my earlier question.
 
Paleocon said:
So you're against driver licensing?

And answer yes or no to my earlier question.
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Another "car issue" compared to gun rights? Driving is a privilege, self-defense is a right. Personal arms defend that right and should not be infringed.

I did not answer your original question because it is meaningless in this debate. I am not about to go down a "which records would you" trail.

It never fails to amuse me when I run across forum members who demand an answer as if they were the boss of me. :roll:
 
TurtleDude said:
actually you are right and wrong. more right then wrong. The 4473 stays with the dealer. If the dealer shuts down, then the Dealer has to send records of a certain amount of years to the ATF. the Government doesn't have a record of those 4473 and cannot go around and collect that information stored in thousands of gun dealers offices. The NICS check only gets a name and the type (pistol or longer) gun someone is buying.

However, here is how there is some "registration"

years ago, a boy I helped coach made the Olympic team as a shooter. He set two world records. At some point-maybe when he graduated college or maybe when he set the record, I gave him a Beretta pistol I bought from a dealer friend of mine. The boy at the time worked at a bar as security and carried the pistol as part of his duties.


years later (maybe twenty) I get a call from my buddy who owns the shop. He said a Beretta I had bought had been recovered by the Police during a traffic stop for DUI and minor weed possession. They called the ATF who called Beretta and Beretta gave them the wholesaler where the gun was shipped, the wholesaler gave the ATF the retail dealer and the dealer had my 4473. He told the ATF that he believed I had given the gun as a gift and probably no longer had an interest in it. The guy who was stopped said he had bought the pistol from my friend and the ATF wanted proof that was true. SO I called my friend and he confirmed that when he quit working at the bar, he ended up selling it to another guy who worked at the bar. SO I called the ATF and told them that I no longer had an interest in the gun (or I might have told the dealer who told the ATF-I cannot recall exactly). what happened after that, I don't know

Now that means the ATF has the means of at least tracking a retail gun sale to the retail buyer from the dealer. But after that, no. If I had said I DO NOT RECALL who I gave the gun or sold the gun to, the ATF wouldn't know if the guy found with it was a legitimate owner. but in this case-because I keep records and have a good memory, I know exactly what happened to the gun and the second owner confirmed it
Click to expand...
Well, true the gun is not registered to the current owner with a paper trail, but getting to the original retail purchaser is a pretty big deal, IMO.

Gun crimes are often very serious, so if the authorities lean on the original retail purchaser I suspect they will cough-up the new buyer pretty quick.

If a gun I bought and later sold was used in a crime, you'd better believe I'd be cooperating!

I've been out of the buying/selling/shooting scene for quite a while, but whenever I sold a gun I went out of my way to document the sale well, and I saved the detailed bill of sale in my safety deposit box.

I may trust my buyer (I wouldn't sell if I didn't), but who knows where that gun will be 2 or 3 sales down the road?
 
Captain Adverse said:
Why? What's the purpose if there is no monitoring or reporting requirement? Why the need to fill one out at all?

Well after some research...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Form_4473

So it DOES give the Feds the information, eventually.
Click to expand...

No because if the dealer is still in business after 20 years they destroy the records and the feds also still have to destroy them after 20 years
 
Captain Adverse said:
Another "car issue" compared to gun rights? Driving is a privilege, self-defense is a right. Personal arms defend that right and should not be infringed.
Click to expand...

Another "gun issue" compared to car rights? Shooting is a privilege, work is a right. Personal cars defend that right and should not be infringed.

You are confusing tools with natural rights.

I did not answer your original question because it is meaningless in this debate. I am not about to go down a "which records would you" trail.

It never fails to amuse me when I run across forum members who demand an answer as if they were the boss of me. :roll:
Click to expand...

It's called honest debate. If you weren't so petulant and immature (IOW, a libertarian), you wouldn't react to everything, including a question posed to you in a debate, with "you're not the boss of me".
 
Captain Adverse said:
Why? What's the purpose if there is no monitoring or reporting requirement? Why the need to fill one out at all?

Well after some research...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Form_4473

So it DOES give the Feds the information, eventually.
Click to expand...
It is only retained while the background check is being performed and once completed is supposed to be removed.
 
Paleocon said:
Another "gun issue" compared to car rights? Shooting is a privilege, work is a right. Personal cars defend that right and should not be infringed.

You are confusing tools with natural rights.



It's called honest debate. If you weren't so petulant and immature (IOW, a libertarian), you wouldn't react to everything, including a question posed to you in a debate, with "you're not the boss of me".
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Lol because YOU called someone immature :lamo
 
Casper said:
Once a check is completed the paperwork is destroyed, or is supposed to be, it is a violation to retain it. It is why even though you may have bought a gun last week if you want to buy another this week you have to go through the entire process again, otherwise it would be on record and not needed.
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That (bolded above) is absolute and complete BS. Why do you spew such nonsense?

All FFLs shall retain each Form 4473 and 4473(LV) for a period not less than 20 years from the date of sale or disposition of the firearms. Forms 4473 obtained by FFLs where the NICS check was initiated, but the sale, delivery, or transfer of the firearm was not completed must be retained for a period of not less than 5 years.
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https://www.atf.gov/file/58176/download
 
ttwtt78640 said:
That (bolded above) is absolute and complete BS. Why do you spew such nonsense?



https://www.atf.gov/file/58176/download
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You seem to be correct in that the ATF is retaining the docs, strange since they play no part in the background check, those are done by the FBI which does not retain the records and the sellers get rid of theirs.
 
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