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Counter Argument on NRA's "Good Guy with a gun" mantra[W:181:281]

Re: Counter Argument on NRA's "Good Guy with a gun" mantra

haymarket said:
It is NOT a persons technical expertise with firearms that I am concerned about as I have no way of putting that claim to the test on a website like this.

My concern is advocating policies to make American far more gun centric and increase the chances of scenarios like the ones described.
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Do you believe that everyone has a right to defend their life from attack by common threats with substantially the same means their attackers are likely to use?
 
Re: Counter Argument on NRA's "Good Guy with a gun" mantra

haymarket said:
It is NOT a persons technical expertise with firearms that I am concerned about as I have no way of putting that claim to the test on a website like this.

My concern is advocating policies to make American far more gun centric and increase the chances of scenarios like the ones described.
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Increase what scenarios that you describe? One in which a person with the means to defend themselves.. actually is able to defend themselves and save others?

What is wrong with being gun centric by the way? What exactly are you afraid of and why?
 
Re: Counter Argument on NRA's "Good Guy with a gun" mantra

haymarket said:
It is NOT a persons technical expertise with firearms that I am concerned about as I have no way of putting that claim to the test on a website like this.

My concern is advocating policies to make American far more gun centric and increase the chances of scenarios like the ones described.
Click to expand...

Increase what scenarios that you describe? One in which a person with the means to defend themselves.. actually is able to defend themselves and save others?

What is wrong with being gun centric by the way? What exactly are you afraid of and why?
 
Re: Counter Argument on NRA's "Good Guy with a gun" mantra

jaeger19 said:
You mean like calling people that believe in self defense and DOING something to protect themselves and the community as "true believers" and "my gun is bigger than your gun".. macho crap?

Or how about taking on airs about " as a person who believes in the rule of law".. as if gun owners that believe in self defense and others somehow don't "believe in the rule of law".


You act is if wanting to save another persons life.. and having the means to do it are something that only " macho guys" or "true believers" would believe. And that somehow that you are superior.. because you believe " in the rule of law"..

now you don't like the idea of being called a coward for not acting in trying to save someone else.. or even yourself. Well what would you call someone who fails to act because "I might get shot"? Call them "brave?".
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Cut the crap. If somebody has to defend themselves - I am supportive of that. In the final measure of a last line of defense.

What I strongly object to and will mock and belittle with my last breath is the effort to make it the first line of defense as a nation and as a people .... to render the police irrelevant and promote the delusional idea of a gun centric society where everyone is armed and can take the law into their own hands.

Got that?

I suspect not.
 
Re: Counter Argument on NRA's "Good Guy with a gun" mantra

Lutherf said:
Do you believe that everyone has a right to defend their life from attack by common threats with substantially the same means their attackers are likely to use?
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Yes - I support self defense. I have no idea what your last part means in real life practical everyday terms. Just how do you make sure that happens other than carrying around an arsenal?
 
Re: Counter Argument on NRA's "Good Guy with a gun" mantra

haymarket said:
Cut the crap. If somebody has to defend themselves - I am supportive of that. In the final measure of a last line of defense.

What I strongly object to and will mock and belittle with my last breath is the effort to make it the first line of defense as a nation and as a people .... to render the police irrelevant and promote the delusional idea of a gun centric society where everyone is armed and can take the law into their own hands.

Got that?


I suspect not.
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And who pray tell is advocating that... NO ONE HERE IS... I defy you to find any posters that believe that we need to render the police irrelevant that that " we can take the law into our own hands"..

Certainly no one here is saying it.. and certainly the NRA is not saying that.

so where are you getting this fantasy?
 
Re: Counter Argument on NRA's "Good Guy with a gun" mantra

jaeger19 said:
And who pray tell is advocating that... NO ONE HERE IS... I defy you to find any posters that believe that we need to render the police irrelevant that that " we can take the law into our own hands"..

Certainly no one here is saying it.. and certainly the NRA is not saying that.

so where are you getting this fantasy?
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Of course nobody would post exactly that. But it is the end result of advocating that we become a more gun centric society where open carry is the rule rather than the exception and the whole pushing this myth of the good guy with the gun is the answer. It is the logical application of that.
 
Re: Counter Argument on NRA's "Good Guy with a gun" mantra

haymarket said:
Yes - I support self defense. I have no idea what your last part means in real life practical everyday terms. Just how do you make sure that happens other than carrying around an arsenal?
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What it means is that if someone shoots at you with a handgun or a rifle should you be allowed to shoot back with your own rifle or pistol?
 
Re: Counter Argument on NRA's "Good Guy with a gun" mantra

haymarket said:
Actually I spoke as a person who believes in the rule of law and a society which has established many ways to properly carry that out and protect the greatest number of people.

Calling grade school names like cowardice is a sure sign of failure in your position. But that is a routine part of the "my gun is bigger than your gun" macho crap that pretends to pass for debate in too many of these discussions.
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Never said you were a coward. I stated I refuse to let fear of failure justify cowardice. You can try and rationalize doing nothing and you come up with all the what ifs you want in order to justify it, but it is not an admirable trait.
 
Re: Counter Argument on NRA's "Good Guy with a gun" mantra

Lutherf said:
What it means is that if someone shoots at you with a handgun or a rifle should you be allowed to shoot back with your own rifle or pistol?
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yes that sounds right to me
 
Re: Counter Argument on NRA's "Good Guy with a gun" mantra

BretJ said:
Never said you were a coward. I stated I refuse to let fear of failure justify cowardice. You can try and rationalize doing nothing and you come up with all the what ifs you want in order to justify it, but it is not an admirable trait.
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And that is not what I am advocating.
 
Re: Counter Argument on NRA's "Good Guy with a gun" mantra

haymarket said:
Of course nobody would post exactly that. But it is the end result of advocating that we become a more gun centric society where open carry is the rule rather than the exception and the whole pushing this myth of the good guy with the gun is the answer. It is the logical application of that.
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No its not. That's not a logical application of that at all. Where would you even get that from?

We have already become "more gun centric" using your terms... we have more concealed carriers than ever, gun purchases are up.. etc....and whats happened? Crime is lower..

AND there is no sudden huge increase in "taking the law into their own hands" , or whatever fantasy you are talking.

Sorry man.. but your premise is based on hysteria. and not logic. Wanting to own a firearm and carry it so you can defend yourself does not mean that you want to break the rule of law... or that you think you are macho etc..
 
Re: Counter Argument on NRA's "Good Guy with a gun" mantra

haymarket said:
yes that sounds right to me
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Should you be allowed to own and carry a pistol, a rifle or both just in case someone starts shooting at you?
 
Re: Counter Argument on NRA's "Good Guy with a gun" mantra

haymarket said:
And that is not what I am advocating.
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Maybe not but you realize that "good guys with guns" is a part of our rule of law; be it through law enforcement or otherwise. Stepping up should be applauded and not second guessed.
 
Re: Counter Argument on NRA's "Good Guy with a gun" mantra

Mr Person said:
The OP is about the "good guy with a gun" myth, not your constitutional right to believe in that myth.
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One mans myth is another mans reality. Have you not read the multitude of threads on this very forum showing where a "good guy with a gun" stopped a "bad guy with a gun" and saved many lives in the process?

BTW, you being in the need for an attitudinal adjustment regarding you posts doesn't affect the facts surrounding my Constitutional rights.
 
Re: Counter Argument on NRA's "Good Guy with a gun" mantra

jaeger19 said:
No its not. That's not a logical application of that at all. Where would you even get that from?
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I get that from people who want a more gun centric society.

I get that from people who love to tell us that the police have no obligation to protect you and cite a court ruling perverting and distorting what it actually says in an effort to scare the hell out of people and make them think its them against the world because the police will say screw you when push comes to shove.

I get from the push to allow citizens to have bigger and more powerful weapons and openly carry them even on places like where children go to school.

I get it from people who talk about guns like them are Miss December hanging over their bed bringing on thoughts of rapture and delight.

I get it from people who talk about using guns to eventually fight their own government and even murder their fellow US citizens if issues of public policy do not go their way.

For a start.

We have already become "more gun centric" using your terms... we have more concealed carriers than ever, gun purchases are up.. etc....and whats happened? Crime is lower..
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Correlation is not causation - or at least that is what I have read here hundreds of times in other arguments.

Can you prove with verifiable evidence that more guns is the reason for a decrease in crime?

Sorry man.. but your premise is based on hysteria. and not logic.
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Thats not hysteria. Its just paying attention and applying what is heard.
 
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Re: Counter Argument on NRA's "Good Guy with a gun" mantra

Lutherf said:
Should you be allowed to own and carry a pistol, a rifle or both just in case someone starts shooting at you?
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Own a weapon by going through legal channels - yes. Carry that same weapon by going through legal channels - yes .... with the use of the good common sense and decency that you should have and exercise in making such a decision in a society with other persons and the effect it could have upon them.
 
Re: Counter Argument on NRA's "Good Guy with a gun" mantra

haymarket said:
I get that from people who want a more gun centric society.

I get that from people who love to tell us that the police have no obligation to protect you and cite a court ruling perverting and distorting what it actually says in an effort to scare the hell out of people and make them think its them against the world because the police will say screw you when push comes to shove.

I get from the push to allow citizens to have bigger and more powerful weapons and openly carry them even on places like where children go to school.

I get it from people who talk about guns like them are Miss December hanging over their bed bringing on thoughts of rapture and delight.

I get it from people who talk about using guns to eventually fight their own government and even murder their fellow US citizens if issues of public policy do not go their way.

For a start.
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In other words you got no argument, no excuse and no evidence.

Anecdotal accounts for nothing.

haymarket said:
Thats not hysteria. Its just paying attention and applying what is heard.
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Hyperbole is not an argument.
 
Re: Counter Argument on NRA's "Good Guy with a gun" mantra

Black Dog said:
In other words you got no argument, no excuse and no evidence.

Anecdotal accounts for nothing.



Hyperbole is not an argument.
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I was asked where I got my observations from.

Do you deny the reality of all the things I mentioned?
 
Re: Counter Argument on NRA's "Good Guy with a gun" mantra

Black Dog said:
And it's not true. No surprise here.



Yes.
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Thank you for verifying that denial is not just a river in Egypt.
 
Re: Counter Argument on NRA's "Good Guy with a gun" mantra

haymarket said:
Thank you for verifying that denial is not just a river in Egypt.
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Your welcome. Enjoy your fantasy.
 
Re: Counter Argument on NRA's "Good Guy with a gun" mantra

Black Dog said:
Your welcome. Enjoy your fantasy.
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It is not me who lives in world of delusional belief apart from reality. It was you who denied that there are people whom I described in post 41.
 
Re: Counter Argument on NRA's "Good Guy with a gun" mantra

haymarket said:
It is not me who lives in world of delusional belief apart from reality. It was you who denied that there are people whom I described in post 41.
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Well post some proof... oh thats right you can't. LMAO!
 
Re: Counter Argument on NRA's "Good Guy with a gun" mantra

Black Dog said:
Well post some proof... oh thats right you can't. LMAO!
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There are none so blind as they who will not see.
John Heywood 1456

or if you prefer a more modern version

"a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest"
Paul Simon - The Boxer

The evidence has already been posted.... more times than can probably be counted without the aid of a calculator.
 
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