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Honest question, why do you support gun control? [W:244]

As I expected.

What's it like to live in fear all the time? Justifying it as 'just being prepared' is probably a nice psychological crutch, though.

What is like rejecting the world, its events, its history, its facts, and launching ad hominem at those that can?
 
So if they do not work, why ban open carry?

Criminals do not open carry, and it protected by not only the 2nd but also the 1st Amendment.

Why?

So at some point in time will your right to free speech be obsolete?

Again I do not consider 'the constitution says so' as a valid reason for doing or not doing anything. The constitution states what it says for various reasons that were debated lengthily hundreds of years ago. We should never stop looking at those reasons to decide whether the constitution should change. I am a proponent of a living constitution.

Stops or prevents a large major crimes from happening, saying you can prevent or stop all crime is not possible.

But you think it is better for people to be disarmed and helpless is better? Talk about inhuman.

There's no evidence that gun ownership reduces the amount of large major crimes from happening. I believe that it is better for the people when criminals are disarmed. In the UK and Australia this has been largely achieved. I don't think it would work in the US however.

Sounds like someone can not defend against the increase in crime against a disarmed public.

Nope, I'm someone who has had this same argument one zillion times before. I used to cite statistics about the US vs UK before realizing that the statistics are completely meaningless as the context in which they are taken is completely different. Obviously you haven't figured that one out yet.

Really?

So not having to put up with what a 3 dollar tax on a liter of petrol had nothing to do with?

Not living a nanny state had nothing to do with it?

Actually the main reason was that I can make more money in the states then I can in the UK due to the nature of my work. Weather genuinely does rank higher on my lists of reasons to move than gas prices or 'nanny state'. I mainly use uber to get around and the whole nanny state narrative never really affected me in the UK.

No it is a just equation, how are you free if you do not have the means of defending your life, freedom, rights, property against those that would usurp then.

Ask the people who have guns to protect their life/property/blah blah in Somalia how free they feel. I feel much free'r in a gunless society than a gun filled one.

Are we perfect? Not a chance in Hell, might that scale be biased? maybe.

Easy, do not buy one, everyone wins, you do not have the right to take the rights/freedom away from other people.

Wrong..

85% Of British Want Their Guns Back | InvestmentWatch

New Poll Shows England Wants Its Guns Back | TheBlaze.com

The poll was filled out by readers of the daily telegraph, a conservative newspaper that is in no way representative of the British population. It would be like asking Fox news viewers the same question. Britain in general is a very liberal country and the readership of that paper represents a ver

I guess having rape gang, and people beheading people in the streets makes you want to be able to defend themselves...

What an ignorant appeal to emotion. You've been trying to paint the UK has some terrible nanny state with beheadings, violent crime, gang rape, where the populace wants guns but is held away from them, but completely over exaggerated every claim. Sorry to tell you bud, but the US, with all it's freedoms and non-nanny stating and guns, hasn't done too well in the mass murders/nanny state nsa spying/homicide rate statistics.

Wrong, yet again

Well violent crime is a 50 year all time low, whole gun ownership grows higher and higher.

Having researched the question, I take my statement back. However, there's no clear evidence one way or the other really, gun sales aren't tracked well enough to point to an increase or decline in gun ownership rates. Funnily enough, violent crime in the UK is at a 50 year all time low, and gun ownership shrinks lower and lower.
 
What is like rejecting the world, its events, its history, its facts, and launching ad hominem at those that can?

The world is more peaceful then at any other time in history, technology is bringing the world closer together at a rapid pace and expanding our ability to feed the world, world income inequality is falling and the world as a whole is getting wealthier, we have managed to understand the necessity of conservation and the downside of pollution, and have included environmental costs in mosts of our calculations of future projects. Medicine and knowledge of public health are allowing our populations to live healthier lives than ever in all of human history before no matter if you are rich or poor, and education and equality has diffused to most regions on earth, and shows no sign of stopping.

So given the world, events, and especially its history, I think we can be realistically understood as living in a golden age. And every generation before us has said things will get worse, but it doesnt seem to happen in the long run.
 
Again I do not consider 'the constitution says so' as a valid reason for doing or not doing anything. The constitution states what it says for various reasons that were debated lengthily hundreds of years ago. We should never stop looking at those reasons to decide whether the constitution should change. I am a proponent of a living constitution
.

So you do not consider the Constitution, the Supreme Law of the Land, the law that restrains and restrictions the actions of the Government

The statist left`s idea of a "living, breathing Constitution" is on of just sugar-coating the Courts`s abandonment of the bedrock principals that the government is entitled to exercise only those powers specifically delegated to it. The practical results is that there is no Constitution at all. It`s a great way to play a game by the way,...make sure the referee is on your side, then give him a living breathing" rulebook so that the rules are whatever he says the are.

Our written Constitution was the Founders` reaction to the lack of one by the British. They were tried of having a citizen`a rights and liberties being a moving target, subject to the whim of the ruling class, so they codified them in a written compact between the citizen and their government. And they deliberately limited the power of that government...


There's no evidence that gun ownership reduces the amount of large major crimes from happening. I believe that it is better for the people when criminals are disarmed. In the UK and Australia this has been largely achieved. I don't think it would work in the US however.

Yes their is look at the crime rates in Chicago before CCW to other major cities, then to all others.


Chicago crime rate drops as concealed carry gun permit applications surge - Washington Times

CDC Gun Research Backfires on Obama - Guns & Ammo

Criminals are never disarmed, how can you not understand this?

They have pistols, SMG, Automatic rifles, ect, the only people to you disarm are the law abiding ciztens



Nope, I'm someone who has had this same argument one zillion times before. I used to cite statistics about the US vs UK before realizing that the statistics are completely meaningless as the context in which they are taken is completely different. Obviously you haven't figured that one out yet.

Well they prove that you have more violent crime in a disarmed nation so why would you accept it?

Actually the main reason was that I can make more money in the states then I can in the UK due to the nature of my work. Weather genuinely does rank higher on my lists of reasons to move than gas prices or 'nanny state'. I mainly use uber to get around and the whole nanny state narrative never really affected me in the UK.

So you are saying lower taxes, lower cost of living did play into your move to this nation.


Ask the people who have guns to protect their life/property/blah blah in Somalia how free they feel. I feel much free'r in a gunless society than a gun filled one.

You do know when you have to use memes you are losing the debate, right?

Somalia is the way it is not because of armed people, its because of their culture.

Furthermore we value Liberty, Unalienable rights and limited Government, not No Government, so why would we move to another nation?

I assume you live in the North East?




What an ignorant appeal to emotion. You've been trying to paint the UK has some terrible nanny state with beheadings, violent crime, gang rape, where the populace wants guns but is held away from them, but completely over exaggerated every claim.

I have just give you links and facts, how is that a appeal to emotion?

Some people what to be armed and have the means and ability to defend themselves and they are being denied from owning them.

That is not an opinion, that is a fact.

Sorry to tell you bud, but the US, with all it's freedoms and non-nanny stating and guns, hasn't done too well in the mass murders/nanny state nsa spying/homicide rate statistics.

Where did say were are perfect?

The NSA has got to go.

And outside of major cities and gangs crime rates are very low.


Having researched the question, I take my statement back. However, there's no clear evidence one way or the other really, gun sales aren't tracked well enough to point to an increase or decline in gun ownership rates. Funnily enough, violent crime in the UK is at a 50 year all time low, and gun ownership shrinks lower and lower.

Crime stats say other wise, and you would be shocked with what people have stored away.
 
The world is more peaceful then at any other time in history, technology is bringing the world closer together at a rapid pace and expanding our ability to feed the world, world income inequality is falling and the world as a whole is getting wealthier, we have managed to understand the necessity of conservation and the downside of pollution, and have included environmental costs in mosts of our calculations of future projects. Medicine and knowledge of public health are allowing our populations to live healthier lives than ever in all of human history before no matter if you are rich or poor, and education and equality has diffused to most regions on earth, and shows no sign of stopping.

So given the world, events, and especially its history, I think we can be realistically understood as living in a golden age. And every generation before us has said things will get worse, but it doesnt seem to happen in the long run.

So was Rome...We all know what happened.
 
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Constitution

Getting beyond the scope of the thread which I don't want to discuss here. If you want to see my thoughts on it I'd suggest you read the DP constitution convention subforum.

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Yes their is look at the crime rates in Chicago before CCW to other major cities, then to all others.

Chicago crime rate drops as concealed carry gun permit applications surge - Washington Times

CDC Gun Research Backfires on Obama - Guns & Ammo

Criminals are never disarmed, how can you not understand this?

They have pistols, SMG, Automatic rifles, ect, the only people to you disarm are the law abiding ciztens

Which is why I've said at the beginning that I don't support gun control in the US. The firearm laws in the UK and Aus were largely successful at getting guns out of the hands of criminals. I don't believe those same measures would work in the US however so I don't condone them.

.
Well they prove that you have more violent crime in a disarmed nation so why would you accept it?

No they don't prove that. What don't you understand that you cannot compare levels of violence in two different nations by those statistics? It's apples and oranges.

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So you are saying lower taxes, lower cost of living did play into your move to this nation.

Lower cost of living, yes. Although I have lived in some of the most highly taxed states and more expensive places.

.
You do know when you have to use memes you are losing the debate, right?

You do know that when all you parrot on about is how the other person is losing the debate you're a) losing the debate and b) don't really have an interest in having an honest debate.

.
Somalia is the way it is not because of armed people, its because of their culture.

Ah, we're getting somewhere. Funny how other differences between other countries is down to guns and nothing else. Truth is, as I've said repeatedly, comparing different countries is a fruitless exercise because of the differences in how different countries operate.

.
Furthermore we value Liberty, Unalienable rights and limited Government, not No Government, so why would we move to another nation?

I assume you live in the North East?

I've lived in a bunch of different places but most of my time has been spent in LA, Boston and Connecticut.

.
I have just give you links and facts, how is that a appeal to emotion?

Just as I said it was, it's that you paint England as some horrific wasteland nanny state with rapes and beheadings all because there are no guns, when really you have no clue of what the country is like. Have you even been?

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Some people what to be armed and have the means and ability to defend themselves and they are being denied from owning them.

That is not an opinion, that is a fact.

Where did say were are perfect?

The NSA has got to go.

And outside of major cities and gangs crime rates are very low.

Crime stats say other wise, and you would be shocked with what people have stored away.

Some people want to drive at 150mph and they are being denied from that. Some people want to take drugs in their own homes away from others and are denied that. Unfortunately, society often has to cater to the lowest common denominator for the safety of others. The bad drivers, and violent drug addicts, the crazy gun owner. Society by definition involves sacrifice of freedom. It's unfortunate but that's just how it is.
 
Getting beyond the scope of the thread which I don't want to discuss here. If you want to see my thoughts on it I'd suggest you read the DP constitution convention subforum.

Of course not, why would you want to defend a indefeasible position?

Which is why I've said at the beginning that I don't support gun control in the US. The firearm laws in the UK and Aus were largely successful at getting guns out of the hands of criminals. I don't believe those same measures would work in the US however so I don't condone them.

But you support banning open carry?

No they were not, they still have them and are better armed then disarmed public, hell they are making their own machine pistols.
More Australian motorcycle gang DIY firearms surface - The Firearm Blog
Illegal firearms seized by Sydney Police

It is an epic failure...

No they don't prove that. What don't you understand that you cannot compare levels of violence in two different nations by those statistics? It's apples and oranges.

Well that is your take on the matter, alot of people in both nations say other wise.

Lower cost of living, yes. Although I have lived in some of the most highly taxed states and more expensive places.

So North East?




You do know that when all you parrot on about is how the other person is losing the debate you're a) losing the debate and b) don't really have an interest in having an honest debate.

Really? We are having a "honest debate" which you seem to be losing.


Ah, we're getting somewhere. Funny how other differences between other countries is down to guns and nothing else. Truth is, as I've said repeatedly, comparing different countries is a fruitless exercise because of the differences in how different countries operate.

So you are saying culture, values, ect do not have any effect?





I've lived in a bunch of different places but most of my time has been spent in LA, Boston and Connecticut.

Wow, no wonder you have these views you have yet to live in a free state, Move to Texas, or Vegas, lower taxes, higher stranded of living, ect.

Just as I said it was, it's that you paint England as some horrific wasteland nanny state with rapes and beheadings all because there are no guns, when really you have no clue of what the country is like. Have you even been?

Hey I am not painting it, I am giving facts and stats, are you saying that rape gangs do not exist?

Are you saying that beheading are not happening?

All because of no guns? in some part yes, but it is do to mass immigration for nations who`s people and cultures allow and in some cases mandate it.

I do not have to visit the Sun to know it bright or visit Hell to know it is hot.



Some people want to drive at 150mph and they are being denied from that.

You can, some people do and are not caught on open stretches of highway, it is not a crime and does not harm anyone.

Some people want to take drugs in their own homes away from others and are denied that.

Some drugs, but the push to end the war on drugs is increasing, and it is victim-less crime that harms no one.

Unfortunately, society often has to cater to the lowest common denominator for the safety of others.

No, it has chosen to carter to the lowest common denominator, who have been holding back and punishing everyone else for their failures and stupidity for far too long. It is coming to an end.

We in this nation value Liberty over "safety".

The bad drivers, and violent drug addicts, the crazy gun owner. Society by definition involves sacrifice of freedom. It's unfortunate but that's just how it is.

A Free Society be definition involves sacrificing "safety" for Liberty, that is just how it is...
 
I'm guessing SOME of us know what happened....

And Rome wasn't the world. And took hundreds of years- or a thousand +, depending on your perspective, to collapse.

It did non the less collapse, and Golden ages end.
 
Well, let's just legalize guns in 2600, so you'll be ready then.

The fact that you think you can predict such events is a joke, the fact you can not see that all Golden Ages end and end with darkness, terror, poverty, and death and that such dark ages last for hunderds of years, in the year 2015 is very sad.
 
The fact that you think you can predict such events is a joke, the fact you can not see that all Golden Ages end and end with darkness, terror, poverty, and death and that such dark ages last for hunderds of years, in the year 2015 is very sad.

Your history expertise is as acute as the rest of your postings.
 
Your history expertise is as acute as the rest of your postings.

Are you saying that dark ages do not happen?

Are you saying empires do not collapse and power vacuums are not formed and filled by tyrants, thugs, and barbarians?
 
Your history expertise is as acute as the rest of your postings.

his understanding of firearms, the constitutional rights of gun owners and firearms laws is far far better than any of the gun banners
 
There is a reason for the allowing of guns as a right, that is the calling of the militia.

Remember around 240 years ago there was a monarchy trying to implement illegal taxes on the colonists abd then the colonists rebelled and called the militia to defend their home from tyrannical government? The first thing king George did was an attempted disarmament of the colonials. Well after that they decided the right for the citizens to arm themselves shall not be infringed due to the fact that society needs to regulate the Government. Not the other way around

Now let's fast forward to our time.

Our government has out produced illegal taxes, more so then the monarchy has done ten times the amount. Now they are, as in statists are banning our firearms. If California has regulations on firearms it is unconstitutional. Considering it's a delegated right to the citizens not the state. This is going on because the statists are expanding their power over the commons and attempting to restrict the ability to regulate government. It's nor about who's "left-wing, or right-wing" it's the fact that every one of the gun banners all fall in the same criteria. Limit individual freedom and expansion of the state.
 
Honest question, why do you support gun control?

What is Truth, Facts, Reason, Logic, and Liberty not precious?

I'm pretty committed to those, although I find the last tends to be overused by many who just never learned to get along with others.


Haven't seen evidence of the first four from you yet.
 
I'm pretty committed to those, although I find the last tends to be overused by many who just never learned to get along with others.

No you are not committed to them, And we have learned that being free and prosperous is more important then getting along with "others".


Haven't seen evidence of the first four from you yet.

You could not see a sunrise.
 
I'm pretty committed to those, although I find the last tends to be overused by many who just never learned to get along with others.


Haven't seen evidence of the first four from you yet.
What is your ideal of liberty?
 
What is your ideal of liberty?

Well, I can't tell you it's NOT cherishing the freedom to get shot walking down the street by a teenager who had the freedom to choose not to attend school because his parents were free to die from heroin overdoses.
 
Well, I can't tell you it's NOT cherishing the freedom to get shot walking down the street by a teenager who had the freedom to choose not to attend school because his parents were free to die from heroin overdoses.

What happens more, that? Or people losing their freedoms in the of "greater good"

Also you do not have the freedom or right to be free from having bad things happen to you.
 
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