• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

A proposal to reduce gun deaths without denying rights or new gun restrictions

And you make the assertion based on...?

Suicides by firearm only account for 2/3rds of suicides in this country,so removing the firearm only changes the method of suicide used. There are 33 other countries with higher rates of suicide than ours despite the fact those other countries have a drastically lower rate of firearm ownership than ours,so obviously this proves my point that removing the weapon only changes the method of suicide used. Many of these people who committed suicide by guns didn't just run out to the store and buy a gun to blow their brains out. Many of them already had a firearm before they became suicidal and some may have even borrowed a firearm. Also your OP makes the assumption that people who commit suicide haven't really thought about suicide, like its was just a spur of the moment or impulse thing. So it will not have an effect on people who are determined to kill themselves. The only thing your suggestion does is pave the way to add another person to the list of persons prohibited from buying a firearm and possibly pave the waiting periods or mandatory psychological examinations before one can buy a firearm.
 
Last edited:
Suicides by firearm only account for 2/3rds of suicides in this country,so removing the firearm only changes the method of suicide used. There are 33 other countries with higher rates of suicide than ours despite the fact those other countries have a drastically lower rate of firearm ownership than ours,so obviously this proves my point that removing the weapon only changes the method of suicide used. Many of these people who committed suicide by guns didn't just run out to the store and buy a gun to blow their brains out. Many of them already had a firearm before they became suicidal and some may have even borrowed a firearm. Also your OP makes the assumption that people who commit suicide haven't really thought about suicide, like its was just a spur of the moment or impulse thing. So it will not have an effect on people who are determined to kill themselves. The only thing your suggestion does is pave the way to add another person to the list of persons prohibited from buying a firearm and possibly pave the waiting periods or mandatory psychological examinations before one can buy a firearm.

Excellent!

I understand your position on this, and it is not an uncommon understanding of the issue. Moreover, international comparison data does support your point of view.

So let me ask you this before jumping into the discussion of whether easy access to guns is a risk factor increasing the total number of successful suicides.

If you learned, to your satisfaction, that the presence of firearms significantly increases the likelihood of death by suicide for a person some mental illness (but not a mental illness that does or should be publically available), would you support a requirement that potential gun buyers be informed of this information?

I ask this because you have correctly identified the heart of the empirical question that must be asked and answered for a policy like this to be considered. If you are right, and I am wrong, then I would absolutely abandon this notion because above all, I am a pragmatist. But if you feel that this measure would somehow be a violation of your rights and would oppose it even if it could be empirically determined that easy access to firearms increases the likelihood of successful suicides, then there is no point in further discussion. Unfortunately, previous posters have come with this objection, but when pressed admitted it was a false objection and the answer to the question actually had no bearing on their position.

So will you support the proposal if I can show you it can make a difference?
 
Excellent!

I understand your position on this, and it is not an uncommon understanding of the issue. Moreover, international comparison data does support your point of view.

So let me ask you this before jumping into the discussion of whether easy access to guns is a risk factor increasing the total number of successful suicides.

If you learned, to your satisfaction, that the presence of firearms significantly increases the likelihood of death by suicide for a person some mental illness (but not a mental illness that does or should be publically available), would you support a requirement that potential gun buyers be informed of this information?

I ask this because you have correctly identified the heart of the empirical question that must be asked and answered for a policy like this to be considered. If you are right, and I am wrong, then I would absolutely abandon this notion because above all, I am a pragmatist. But if you feel that this measure would somehow be a violation of your rights and would oppose it even if it could be empirically determined that easy access to firearms increases the likelihood of successful suicides, then there is no point in further discussion. Unfortunately, previous posters have come with this objection, but when pressed admitted it was a false objection and the answer to the question actually had no bearing on their position.

So will you support the proposal if I can show you it can make a difference?
I suppose if we were to ignore reality I would still not support your proposal. Your proposal is a foot in the doorway for other anti-2nd amendment loons in the future to implement some other anti-2nd amendment ****. Like mandatory psych testing,waiting periods, product warning labels or anything else design to infringe or make difficult the peoples right to keep and bear arms. If you want to suicidal people to be preached to then use public service commercials to do it.
 
Okay, now you are being nothing but a troll. You have ignored the impulsivity and are simply trying to be annoying.

I don't get mad.

But I do get bored, and you bore me.
According to your link, impassivity is a symptom of mental illness. Your link said that the researchers never encountered a healthy person to impulsively killed themselves. All were ill.

Therefore any solution to suicide by gun must address mental illness. Your idea to hand out pamphlets and leaflets in new guns does not do that.
 
According to your link, impassivity is a symptom of mental illness. Your link said that the researchers never encountered a healthy person to impulsively killed themselves. All were ill.

Therefore any solution to suicide by gun must address mental illness. Your idea to hand out pamphlets and leaflets in new guns does not do that.

You are boring me again.

Mental illness and impulsivity are not mutually exclusive.

If you wrap your head around that, you may be able to particpate in the discussion, otherwise, you are either intentionally or unintentionally trolling.
 
I suppose if we were to ignore reality I would still not support your proposal. Your proposal is a foot in the doorway for other anti-2nd amendment loons in the future to implement some other anti-2nd amendment ****. Like mandatory psych testing,waiting periods, product warning labels or anything else design to infringe or make difficult the peoples right to keep and bear arms. If you want to suicidal people to be preached to then use public service commercials to do it.

No one is asking you to ignore reality, if you were not convinced that easy access to firearms is a significant contributing factor to successful attempts, then I would not expect you to support my proposal, in fact I would not support my proposal.

But the idea that you would oppose this proposal based not on your opinion that it is an infringement on your rights (because it is not), but rather because you fear that it would open some door to an actual infringement of your rights is sad, especially when we are considering the 20,000 people who die EACH YEAR as a result of suicide by gun. I know we can't save them all, but we can save some without infringing on anyone's rights. If you learned, and believed empirically, that we could save lives with this measure, how many would we have to save for this solution to be worth the slight inconvenience or irritation or inconvenience it might cause? One hundred? Five Hundred? One thousand? Five thousand? How many lives would you let slip away for your convenience?

Ironically, virtually 100% of these people are gun owners, or at least in a family with a gun owner. I would think gun owners would have a bit more compassion for fellow gun owners than opposing a measure that could provide them with life saving information.
 
Mental illness and impassivity are not mutually exclusive.
Your source made the link, not me.

To quote your source again:
Yet even mental-health experts have tended to regard these very different types of suicide in much the same way. I was struck by this upon meeting with two doctors who are among the most often-cited experts on suicide — and specifically on suicide by jumping. Both readily acknowledged the high degree of impulsivity associated with that method, but also considered that impulsivity as simply another symptom of mental illness. Of all the hundreds of jumping suicides I’ve looked at,” one told me, “I've yet to come across a case where a mentally healthy person was walking across a bridge one day and just went over the side. It just doesn’t happen. There’s almost always the presence of mental illness somewhere.” It seemed to me there was an element of circular logic here: that the act proved the intent that proved the illness.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/06/magazine/06suicide-t.html?pagewanted=all&_r=1&
We see from your link that the core problem is mental illness, not access to guns.

Your solution needs to address mental illness. Even if leaflets were useful in combating mental illness, then said leaflets should be more broadly distributed then just gun owners. Such leaflets should be distributed throughout highschools and employment meetings just like sexual harassment and discrimination awareness. This way it won't matter if someone owns a gun or not, as they will have received your leaflet either way. Here again your argument has no internal consistency.

The many dysfunctions within your argument include:
  • Leaflets are not a proven method for combating mental illness.
  • Leaflets are not a proven method in combating impulsivity, a side effect of mental illness.
  • Leaflets are not a proven method of combating suicide, one of many impulses the mentally ill can experience.
  • Even if we were to assume that leaflets were a proven method in combating any of the above, your targeting only a narrow sub-demographic, when you should be targeting as wide a population as possible.
  • Your link disputes your own argument.
  • You show hostility when a problem with your argument is pointed out.

*******
My ideas for solving the problem:
  • Initiate a national "Broken Windows Theory" campaign; a program which worked miracles in NY.
  • Remove programs which brake up households.
  • Re-stigmatize pregnancy outside of marriage.
  • Require homes which house someone with mental health problems to temporally disarm until the person is cleared by their doctor or leaves the home.
  • Pass Federal Castle Doctrine eliminating 90% of all gun free zones, allowing anyone who can legally carry a gun a t all, to carry wherever that person has a legal right to be, such as to work, to collage, to their children's school, to a theater, or to the mall; and exempting them and the property owner from all liability if a shooting is otherwise lawful.
 
Last edited:
No one is asking you to ignore reality, if you were not convinced that easy access to firearms is a significant contributing factor to successful attempts, then I would not expect you to support my proposal, in fact I would not support my proposal.

But the idea that you would oppose this proposal based not on your opinion that it is an infringement on your rights (because it is not), but rather because you fear that it would open some door to an actual infringement of your rights is sad, especially when we are considering the 20,000 people who die EACH YEAR as a result of suicide by gun. I know we can't save them all, but we can save some without infringing on anyone's rights. If you learned, and believed empirically, that we could save lives with this measure, how many would we have to save for this solution to be worth the slight inconvenience or irritation or inconvenience it might cause? One hundred? Five Hundred? One thousand? Five thousand? How many lives would you let slip away for your convenience?

Ironically, virtually 100% of these people are gun owners, or at least in a family with a gun owner. I would think gun owners would have a bit more compassion for fellow gun owners than opposing a measure that could provide them with life saving information.

I don't even see this as a gun issue but as a right of privacy issue. What you propose violates these suicidal peoples privacy rights. I am guessing you would argue that their lives are more important than their privacy. I think the same way about people with AIDS. I don't think their right to privacy should supersede the public's right to know about a potentially fatal disease. If public health was a constitutional right like gun ownership we might actually agree.
 
Ironically, virtually 100% of these people are gun owners, or at least in a family with a gun owner. I would think gun owners would have a bit more compassion for fellow gun owners than opposing a measure that could provide them with life saving information.
Both of my sisters have clinical mental health problems which keep them from owning a firearm. I, on the other hand, am clean and am licensed to carry in 37 states.

How does giving me (the gun owner) a leaflet about suicide keep either of my sisters from harming themselves with any gun of mine?
 
I have a proposal. Stop looking At gun deaths. Look at all deaths.
 
I have a proposal. Stop looking At gun deaths. Look at all deaths.
But how will that advance Capt'n S's liberal agenda of disarming civilians so that more imposing economic policies can be broadly placed on all citizens?
 
But how will that advance Capt'n S's liberal agenda of disarming civilians so that more imposing economic policies can be broadly placed on all citizens?

I would go so far as to lay out a clearly thought out agenda at the feet of liberals. That requires foresight. I think it is more likely a severe case of ADD. They can focus on guns...but not when they are contextualized and the whole concept of violence is thought out...that would take too long.
 
No one is asking you to ignore reality, if you were not convinced that easy access to firearms is a significant contributing factor to successful attempts, then I would not expect you to support my proposal, in fact I would not support my proposal.

I wouldn't support your proposal even if I believed it would help.

But the idea that you would oppose this proposal based not on your opinion that it is an infringement on your rights (because it is not), but rather because you fear that it would open some door to an actual infringement of your rights is sad, especially when we are considering the 20,000 people who die EACH YEAR as a result of suicide by gun. I know we can't save them all, but we can save some without infringing on anyone's rights.

I am well aware that the anti-2nd amendment side uses incrementation. You people can't ban firearms outright so or people like you create little laws here and there that chip away away at the 2nd amendment. This is why the right to keep and bear arms and a handful of other states is a state granted privilege. So anything you propose I have to look at how will you people use this to later infringe on the 2nd amendment.
I am sure that when the list of persons prohibited from buying a firearm was created no one imagined that it would evolve into mandatory background checks at licensed dealers and waiting periods that some states have.



If you learned, and believed empirically, that we could save lives with this measure, how many would we have to save for this solution to be worth the slight inconvenience or irritation or inconvenience it might cause? One hundred? Five Hundred? One thousand? Five thousand? How many lives would you let slip away for your convenience?

I do not believe any amount of people committing suicide with firearms justifies requiring firearm sellers to preach to customers about suicide regardless if it would or wouldn't save those who commit suicide.

Ironically, virtually 100% of these people are gun owners, or at least in a family with a gun owner. I would think gun owners would have a bit more compassion for fellow gun owners than opposing a measure that could provide them with life saving information.

If they didn't have a gun they would use some other means, just like the 1/3rd of people who committed suicide did and all the other people in countries where firearms are severely restricted did.
 
I don't even see this as a gun issue but as a right of privacy issue. What you propose violates these suicidal peoples privacy rights. I am guessing you would argue that their lives are more important than their privacy. I think the same way about people with AIDS. I don't think their right to privacy should supersede the public's right to know about a potentially fatal disease. If public health was a constitutional right like gun ownership we might actually agree.

Please explain how my proposal invades the privacy of anyone.

Do you know what my proposal is?

I suspect ou don't, otherwise you wold recognize that my proposal is no more intrusive than a label on a can of soup.
 
Both of my sisters have clinical mental health problems which keep them from owning a firearm. I, on the other hand, am clean and am licensed to carry in 37 states.

How does giving me (the gun owner) a leaflet about suicide keep either of my sisters from harming themselves with any gun of mine?


If you cannot answer that question for yourself, think about why you might choose not to bring a loaded gun over to your sisters house and leave it on her nightstand on a particularly bad day.
 
I would go so far as to lay out a clearly thought out agenda at the feet of liberals. That requires foresight. I think it is more likely a severe case of ADD. They can focus on guns...but not when they are contextualized and the whole concept of violence is thought out...that would take too long.

Stone, I can't speak for liberals or their agenda, but I can tell the evolution of my thinking. Frankly, I have never spent a lot pondering gun policy. I have spent far more time shooting, cleanings, and shopping for guns. When the national conversation turned to guns, being a political junkie, I listened to the rhetoric and considered the various proposals. I don't have some absolutist notion about he 2nd Amendment (and neither do most gun owners who approve of the full-auto ban) but neither would I accept a gun ban. My knee jerk reaction was to support the mag limit, but the Assad weapons ban never made any sense to me. But when I looked past the rhetoric and into the facts, it became clear that the mag limit proposal, even it could prevent 100% of mass murders, would not even register a .006% reduction in gun deaths. However, in my research into gun deaths, it became clear that 2/3 of all gun deaths were suicides. So being a pragmatist, I felt that if people want to reduce gun deaths, it makes sense to address the kind of gun deaths that are most prevalent (suicides 20000 per year) not the kind of gun deaths that are least prevalent (mass murders 20 per year), regardless of the fact that mass murders get all of the attention.

First I had to see if a difference could be made and there are three areas that one must understand to consider this question. 1. Underlying mental health issues 2. Are gun suicides merely a method choice that would be substituted if guns were not available. 3. Can anything be done to reduce gun suicides that would reduce overall suicides.

What I learned, and you can peruse the information across the thread, is that if guns are easily accessible for a person experiencing suicidal impulses, in many cases, if they do not have a gun handy, they get past the impulse before acting on it, and live on, usually happy that they did not kill themselves. This is all empirically researched statistically supported fact in the US.

But how do you translate this information into policy that would save lives? The obvious answer is that if guns are not available o anyone, then they would not be available for people experiencing suicidal impulses. But I don't like that solution. As much as I would like to prevent suicides, I am not willing to I've up my guns, nor support denying anyone else's right to own guns. From there, I attempted to find a way to reduce suicides by reducing gun suicides, by without infringing on the rights of anyone.

Basically, it became apparent that many people who commit suicide do not want to die before or after the periods of suicidal impulse and if they were aware of certain facts about people who experience suicidal impulses, they could make decisions get that could better allow them to survive the impulse. So I suggested that people who were contemplating a gun purchase be provided with this information. It would be completely up to them whether they made any decision using this information.

And that is the evolution of my thinking on this, a way to address gun deaths, the supposed goal of our national discussions, without infringing on anyone's right to own or buy a gun.

If someone would use this information to try and push policy proposals farther is out of my hands and would not receive my support. But I hardly think that a possible future bad policy is a good reason to oppose an immediate good policy.
 
If you cannot answer that question for yourself, think about why you might choose not to bring a loaded gun over to your sisters house and leave it on her nightstand on a particularly bad day.
You're trying to dodge the question.

Just answer it.

How does giving me (the gun owner) a leaflet about suicide keep either of my sisters from harming themselves with any gun of mine? I know how maintaining positive control of my gun keeps either of my sisters from harming themselves with any gun of mine. I know how using a trigger lock keeps either of my sisters from harming themselves with any gun of mine.

I don't spend the night at their homes nore would I place an unsecured gun on any night stand if I did. Even if I my gun were laid unsecured on their nightstand, how does a pamphlet in the gun case back at my house, assuming it wasn't tossed out after I bought the gun, prevent an incident?
 
Last edited:
Stone, I can't speak for liberals or their agenda, but I can tell the evolution of my thinking. Frankly, I have never spent a lot pondering gun policy. I have spent far more time shooting, cleanings, and shopping for guns. When the national conversation turned to guns, being a political junkie, I listened to the rhetoric and considered the various proposals. I don't have some absolutist notion about he 2nd Amendment (and neither do most gun owners who approve of the full-auto ban) but neither would I accept a gun ban. My knee jerk reaction was to support the mag limit, but the Assad weapons ban never made any sense to me. But when I looked past the rhetoric and into the facts, it became clear that the mag limit proposal, even it could prevent 100% of mass murders, would not even register a .006% reduction in gun deaths. However, in my research into gun deaths, it became clear that 2/3 of all gun deaths were suicides. So being a pragmatist, I felt that if people want to reduce gun deaths, it makes sense to address the kind of gun deaths that are most prevalent (suicides 20000 per year) not the kind of gun deaths that are least prevalent (mass murders 20 per year), regardless of the fact that mass murders get all of the attention.

First I had to see if a difference could be made and there are three areas that one must understand to consider this question. 1. Underlying mental health issues 2. Are gun suicides merely a method choice that would be substituted if guns were not available. 3. Can anything be done to reduce gun suicides that would reduce overall suicides.

What I learned, and you can peruse the information across the thread, is that if guns are easily accessible for a person experiencing suicidal impulses, in many cases, if they do not have a gun handy, they get past the impulse before acting on it, and live on, usually happy that they did not kill themselves. This is all empirically researched statistically supported fact in the US.

But how do you translate this information into policy that would save lives? The obvious answer is that if guns are not available o anyone, then they would not be available for people experiencing suicidal impulses. But I don't like that solution. As much as I would like to prevent suicides, I am not willing to I've up my guns, nor support denying anyone else's right to own guns. From there, I attempted to find a way to reduce suicides by reducing gun suicides, by without infringing on the rights of anyone.

Basically, it became apparent that many people who commit suicide do not want to die before or after the periods of suicidal impulse and if they were aware of certain facts about people who experience suicidal impulses, they could make decisions get that could better allow them to survive the impulse. So I suggested that people who were contemplating a gun purchase be provided with this information. It would be completely up to them whether they made any decision using this information.

And that is the evolution of my thinking on this, a way to address gun deaths, the supposed goal of our national discussions, without infringing on anyone's right to own or buy a gun.

If someone would use this information to try and push policy proposals farther is out of my hands and would not receive my support. But I hardly think that a possible future bad policy is a good reason to oppose an immediate good policy.

It sounds like the problem is suicide. You can talk about access all you want. There are 33 other nations with higher suicide rates...all of which have strict gun control policies. So what makes people commit suicide? Certainly the availability of the method...but clearly there is another factor that causes it.

Is there no reason to check into the multi billion dollar pharmaceutical industries and their medications? No reason to look at collapsing mental health care? Returning veterans? Etc?

I don't see "legislation" on guns being a fix to suicide. If people want to die...they will. How would any kind of legislation stop them? You have to declare someone unfit. How can a doctor do so if he doesn't have the patients or time?
 
It sounds like the problem is suicide. You can talk about access all you want. There are 33 other nations with higher suicide rates...all of which have strict gun control policies. So what makes people commit suicide? Certainly the availability of the method...but clearly there is another factor that causes it.

Is there no reason to check into the multi billion dollar pharmaceutical industries and their medications? No reason to look at collapsing mental health care? Returning veterans? Etc?

I don't see "legislation" on guns being a fix to suicide. If people want to die...they will. How would any kind of legislation stop them? You have to declare someone unfit. How can a doctor do so if he doesn't have the patients or time?
Most military suicides are caused my family problems. In fact, the demographic of soldiers who commit suicide is more associated with fob'ets, not combat troops. That's a negative correlation between access to arms and suicide.
 
Please explain how my proposal invades the privacy of anyone.

Do you know what my proposal is?

I suspect ou don't, otherwise you wold recognize that my proposal is no more intrusive than a label on a can of soup.

So if I put your name on a list it doesn't invade your privacy?
 
You're trying to dodge the question.

Just answer it.

How does giving me (the gun owner) a leaflet about suicide keep either of my sisters from harming themselves with any gun of mine? I know how maintaining positive control of my gun keeps either of my sisters from harming themselves with any gun of mine. I know how using a trigger lock keeps either of my sisters from harming themselves with any gun of mine.

I don't spend the night at their homes nore would I place an unsecured gun on any night stand if I did. Even if I my gun were laid unsecured on their nightstand, how does a pamphlet in the gun case back at my house, assuming it wasn't tossed out after I bought the gun, prevent an incident?

First, I have not said that my proposal is a pamphlet, that may be part of it, but not necessarily all it, so your question includes a strawman objection.

Second, although I did say that providing this information could help prevent suicides by family members, I meant family members in the household. If you need to have it explained to you how this information could potentially save a family member (or any household member), let me know.

Third, this information could potentially be used to save anyone known to someone who has learned this information by understanding the often impulsive nature of suicide, even your sisters.
 
First, I have not said that my proposal is a pamphlet...
That's correct, you offer predictably few details about your "proposal" which only betrays your true intent. If you don't want people filling in the blanks for you, stop leaving the blanks to be filled. We aren't so terribly interested in your thoughts and opinions that we want to interview you. If you have an idea it's up to you to flesh it out.

Second, although I did say that providing this information could help prevent suicides by family members, I meant family members in the household.
So you don't care about non-family in the household.

Third, this information could potentially be used to save anyone known to someone who has learned this information by understanding the often impulsive nature of suicide, even your sisters.
So you don't know that this 'information' actually will help anything, you're only making a wild guess. This explains why you ignore debating the topic of your own thread.
 
I have a proposal. Stop looking At gun deaths. Look at all deaths.

What makes you think I do not and have not looked at all deaths?

There are numerous groups that attempt to prevent suicides, I currently support Suicide Prevention of Colorado which offers a helpline, suicide prevention training, survivor resources to prevent further attempts, and information on how to deal with future suicidal impulses.

However, if you are a looking at a problem that affects 40,000 people directly (suicide deaths) and they are using hundres of different methods, but one method accounts for half of all successful suicides, it would be foolish NOT to look at that method. It may be that considering the method would yield no viable policy proposals to mitigate the problem, but it should be looked at to make that determination.

In this case, there ARE proposals that could prevent some suicides. Some of these proposals would be unacceptable to me as well as politically impossible, like taking all guns out of all houses so that the 20,000 people out of 320,000,000 won't have a gun to kill themselves with. But there are also steps that could be taken that would not deny anyone (not prohibited under the background check) to own or purchase a gun. The least invasive of these steps would be to broadcast public service announcements with this information. A slightly more invasive method, but more specifically targeted method would be to require that certain information be provided to potential gun buyers.

The suggestion that one should not look at gun suicides specifically is ridiculous.
 
You cannot enforce it without registration.

Yes, you can.

Right now, today, in order to purchase a gun, you must complete and sign the ATF form 4473, adding this information would not change that in the slightest, except to add potentially life saving information to the process.

Form 4473 is NOT gun registration.

If it is, then we already have gun registration, and still, this requirement changes nothing.
 
Back
Top Bottom