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Bill Clinton's advice on gun control [W:41]

Grant said:
"It sounds like" disgusting things we're going on so lets kill them all?

You have drifted dangerously close to the left, Tigger, and they're crazier that a wet sack of wildcats.
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I have ALWAYS made the case that the Government is the only organization left capable of enforcing Morality on the population. It's just that simple. We're unwilling to do it for ourselves and our neighbors, and there is no other organization to do it except the Government.

joko104 said:
Your second paragraph is the first track and emotional pitch the government made - "OMG, I mean they were polygamists and Koresh had children by more than one woman!!!" So kill him! Kill those women and children too!! And that is exactly what the government did.
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That was probably the one thing they did correctly in the whole episode. Not the women and kids but him and the other men.

joko104 said:
Nor would the government like your attitudes, would they?
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I don't really care what the Goverhment thinks of me or my attitudes, joko. I firmly expect that one of these days there will be a knock on my door, a hail of gunfire and I'll be leaving in a bodybag. It's pretty much that simple.
 
Tigger said:
I have ALWAYS made the case that the Government is the only organization left capable of enforcing Morality on the population. It's just that simple. We're unwilling to do it for ourselves and our neighbors, and there is no other organization to do it except the Government.



That was probably the one thing they did correctly in the whole episode. Not the women and kids but him and the other men.



I don't really care what the Goverhment thinks of me or my attitudes, joko. I firmly expect that one of these days there will be a knock on my door, a hail of gunfire and I'll be leaving in a bodybag. It's pretty much that simple.
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Wanting all polygamists to be killed - but only the men - is your having murderous wishes towards hundreds of millions of men in the world. That definitely falls into the loon category.

What are you doing that the government will kill you over?
 
joko104 said:
What are you doing that the government will kill you over?
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I'm a gun owner who will NOT give up my guns. It's that simple. They can have them when they pry them from my cold, dead hands. Considering the legislation that is being put forth here in the Communistwealth, I can pretty much guarantee that some of my firearms will be illlegal within the next 3-6 months, and I will not part with them politely or quietly.
 
Tigger said:
I have ALWAYS made the case that the Government is the only organization left capable of enforcing Morality on the population. It's just that simple. We're unwilling to do it for ourselves and our neighbors, and there is no other organization to do it except the Government.
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I believe this to be wrong, and dangerously wrong. What sort of 'morality' has government ever displayed that we should ever emulate?

Certainly the founders came up with an a well thought out design for government where it would be difficult for one person or party to ever gain long term control, but these notions were based on the teachings and morals of the Christian philosophy, not through any inspiration from previous governments. It could well be argued that the British government was also a model, and certainly it was, but again it was based on the moralities of Christianity also. It doesn't seem necessary to mention the frequently immoral conducts of governments throughout the ages, especially those which do not have the teachings of Christianity at the their base.
That was probably the one thing they did correctly in the whole episode. Not the women and kids but him and the other men.
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Well it certainly assures that these people will never be able to testify as to what really happened. Only the survivors get to tell the story.
 
To clarify....

There was NO IRS related search warrant.

Rather, the entire matter was based upon wanting to search to find out if there were automatic weapons - not that there were automatic weapons - and nothing more. Under the affidavit for the search warrant, the government could search the residence of ANYONE who owns an AR15.

At the same time, the Waco newspaper was running a daily series about the "sinners" at the "compound," which had existed since 1959 and 3 generations of members were there.

Waco siege - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Grant said:
Well it certainly assures that these people will never be able to testify as to what really happened. Only the survivors get to tell the story.
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The first lesson of history.... It's always written by the people who WON the battle/war.
 
Tigger posted a lot of known falsities.
In fact, Koresh not only allowed women and children to leave, he instructed many to.

As to why the rest of women and children wouldn't come out? It was as I stated:

"However, as the siege went on, the children were aware that an earlier group of children who had left with some women were immediately separated, and the women arrested."

It was known that the government was going to take the children from their mothers. The children, videotaped, who stayed stated they wanted to stay on those videotapes.
 
Tigger said:
The first lesson of history.... It's always written by the people who WON the battle/war.
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It was Janet Reno who talked Clinton into supporting an armed raid. Fortunately, Reno's goal of seeming the hardcase against non-Christian polygamists in her race for Florida governor failed.
 
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joko104 said:
Tigger posted a lot of known falsities.
In fact, Koresh not only allowed women and children to leave, he instructed many to.

As to why the rest of women and children wouldn't come out? It was as I stated:

"However, as the siege went on, the children were aware that an earlier group of children who had left with some women were immediately separated, and the women arrested."

It was known that the government was going to take the children from their mothers. The children, videotaped, who stayed stated they wanted to stay on those videotapes.
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Any idea of where those survivors are now? Or their children? Did any of the survivors write a book or are there some restrictions on them?

It seems like it would make a helluva movie but with the lean in Hollywood I'm not sure it will ever be done in our lifetimes.
 
Tigger said:
I'm sorry but once you realize that the Federal Agents aren't going away even the most blindered individual has to realize that there are only two ways the siege ends.... with you surrendering or with them kicking in the door. Koresh would have had to be an imbecile not to realize that. If he had any care for the women and children he should have immediately negotiated for their safe release from the compound, and in fact demanded that they leave; for their own safety if nothing else.

joko, I have no love for the Clinton Administration, Janet Reno, or any other Democrat but I believe you're being horribly one-sided on this one and I just can't go as far down that road as you apparently are willing to go with the consipiracy theory on this one.
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This was a horribly-one-sided crime. It was agents of the government committing a crime against American citizens, with no provocation and no justification.

Your attitude of blaming the victims is entirely uncalled-for.
 
joko104 said:
It was Janet Reno who talked Clinton into supporting an armed raid. Fortunately, Reno's goal of seeming the hardcase against non-Christian polygamists in her race for Florida governor failed.
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How could Janet Reno ever talk a US President into doing something like that? It seems to me that while she was for it, Clinton had to be just as much for it as well. This placing the blame elsewhere is pure Clinton, and more than a little suspicious. I can't see any person who takes an oath to serve and protected would attack his own people but that would seem to be the case here.
 
Bob Blaylock said:
This was a horribly-one-sided crime. It was agents of the government committing a crime against American citizens, with no provocation and no justification.

Your attitude of blaming the victims is entirely uncalled-for.
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What is really bizarre is that Tigger, at the same time, said he is willing to die for exactly why the BATF was there - illegal weapons allegation. And Tigger says he'd fight to the death if they tried to take HIS firearms.
 
Bob Blaylock said:
Your attitude of blaming the victims is entirely uncalled-for.
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I find your attitude of defending polygamist loons quite uncalled for as well. Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.
 
joko104 said:
What is really bizarre is that Tigger, at the same time, said he is willing to die for exactly why the BATF was there - illegal weapons allegation. And Tigger says he'd fight to the death if they tried to take HIS firearms.
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Big difference.... I'm not a polyagmist, cultist moron who shouldn't have been allowed outside a mental institution.

Remember that I'm not a "Freedom and Liberty for ALL" type. Never have been and never will be.
 
Bill knows cigars, not guns. Ask Monica.
 
Tigger said:
I find your attitude of defending polygamist loons quite uncalled for as well. Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.
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Tigger said:
Big difference.... I'm not a polyagmist, cultist moron who shouldn't have been allowed outside a mental institution.

Remember that I'm not a "Freedom and Liberty for ALL" type. Never have been and never will be.
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Then you're in the wrong country.

Can I assume that you would have happily been among those who were violently attacking my ancestors in the mid 19th century, for their religious beliefs, which included, at the time, the practice of polygamy; who murdered many of their associates in cold blood, and ultimately drove all the survivors thereof out of what, at the time, constituted the United States?
 
Tigger said:
I find your attitude of defending polygamist loons quite uncalled for as well. Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.
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The US has been called the home of the brave and the land of the free but it seems that 'free' thing applies to some more than others.

Shooting polygamists, or loons, is probably not the way to go. Same with Gays.

But if you advocate shooting lawyers and Leftists then you may develop some support..
 
Tigger said:
I find your attitude of defending polygamist loons quite uncalled for as well. Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.
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remind me of the jurisdiction of the ATF-polygamy or child abuse doesn't cut it

what really happened was that the ATF was facing a big funding cut in congress and wanted to do something that would garner a photo op
 
Grant said:
The US has been called the home of the brave and the land of the free but it seems that 'free' thing applies to some more than others.
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Remember that I'm not a big believer in Freedom and never have been. It's a Privilege, not a Right in my mind.

Grant said:
Shooting polygamists, or loons, is probably not the way to go. Same with Gays.
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We'll have to disagree on that.

Grant said:
But if you advocate shooting lawyers and Leftists then you may develop some support..
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I've advocated for getting rid of most of the lawyers and all the Leftists for quite a while.




Thrilla said:
what did the Branch Davidians ever do to you for you to want them dead?
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Religious nuts/cultists and polygamists. Bad mix, though either one would be good enough for me.
 
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