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Thread: Reverand Paul gives a sermon on the Book of Fiscal Conservatism

  1. #121
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    Re: Reverand Paul gives a sermon on the Book of Fiscal Conservatism

    Quote Originally Posted by Master PO View Post
    BOY YOU MADE YOURSELF LOOK SILLY!


    POINT 1, in article 1 section 8 clause 1, it states commerce taxes shall be the power of the federal government and they shall be used to pay the debts of the u.s....welfare is not a debt, because the government did not receive any goods or services.

    POINT 2 in article 1 section 8 clause 1 it states the federal can provide the common defense and the general welfare

    article 1 section 8 clauses 1 -10 -17 -18 are the general welfare

    article 1 section 8 clauses 11-16 are the common defense

    it time you start reading our constitution instead of not knowing about it and making false claims.

    Madison proposed and defended in Federalist 41, namely, that the general welfare clause is neither a statement of ends nor a substantive grant of power. It is a mere “synonym” for the enumeration of particular powers, which are limited and wholly define its content.
    https://academic.oup.com/publius/art...al-Welfare-the
    We're talking about the constitution, not Madison's opinion.

  2. #122
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    Re: Reverand Paul gives a sermon on the Book of Fiscal Conservatism

    Quote Originally Posted by Baralis View Post
    My opinion: to help maintain confidence in our currency by presenting a means in which the government can repay debts. Fiat currency only holds value as long as the currency has confidence since it has no tangible exchange as a backing. This is where I disagree with "debt does not matter" be it private or public. The perception of to much debt hurts currency confidence and when that confidence is lost the currency no longer holds value. This is the greatest threat to the US dollar imo and why we must keep debt in check.
    Currency holds value when it can buy stuff. Any other explanation is just a derivative of "being able to buy stuff." Production is the "tangible exchange." And if you like gold better, feel free to buy gold with your dollars. It's not difficult.

    Why would people lose confidence? Because there is nothing on the shelves to buy with their dollars. And bonds are just a temporary way to store dollars. Bonds hold their value because the dollars they are storing can still buy stuff. Bonds hold their value because dollars hold their value, and dollars hold their value because our economy produces a lot of stuff to buy.
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  3. #123
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    Re: Reverand Paul gives a sermon on the Book of Fiscal Conservatism

    Quote Originally Posted by Incisor View Post
    Because of inflation or deflation. Take your pick.
    Yep... which means that debt does matter.

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    Re: Reverand Paul gives a sermon on the Book of Fiscal Conservatism

    Quote Originally Posted by Fishking View Post
    You could say that, and it would be true, but you could also say that Obama added twice as much to the debt and it would also be true.
    You could also say that Obama left an economy on the upswing, while Bush left an economy ablaze. That would be true, and far more important than the amount of bonds outstanding.
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    Re: Reverand Paul gives a sermon on the Book of Fiscal Conservatism

    Quote Originally Posted by Incisor View Post
    The debt has grown significantly since Andrew Jackson paid it off.
    So?

    The debt still gets paid. The fact that we pay our debts is WHY we have been able to borrow and still have a strong currency.

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    Re: Reverand Paul gives a sermon on the Book of Fiscal Conservatism

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnfrmClevelan View Post
    Currency holds value when it can buy stuff. Any other explanation is just a derivative of "being able to buy stuff." Production is the "tangible exchange." And if you like gold better, feel free to buy gold with your dollars. It's not difficult.

    Why would people lose confidence? Because there is nothing on the shelves to buy with their dollars. And bonds are just a temporary way to store dollars. Bonds hold their value because the dollars they are storing can still buy stuff. Bonds hold their value because dollars hold their value, and dollars hold their value because our economy produces a lot of stuff to buy.
    That's patently false John.

    People don't lose confidence "because their is nothing on the shelves to buy with their dollars"....

    They lose confidence that people won't accept those dollars for the things on the shelves....

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    Re: Reverand Paul gives a sermon on the Book of Fiscal Conservatism

    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    Yep... which means that debt does matter.
    No, it just means that the economy cannot handle unlimited demand. That has always been the limit of how much the government can spend - can the economy meet the increased demand? I've explained that a hundred times already. Taxation is a means of decreasing private sector demand. If the government spent without taxing anything away from people, the economy might not be able to meet all of that demand. Debt has nothing to do with it.
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    Re: Reverand Paul gives a sermon on the Book of Fiscal Conservatism

    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    That's patently false John.

    People don't lose confidence "because their is nothing on the shelves to buy with their dollars"....

    They lose confidence that people won't accept those dollars for the things on the shelves....
    Currencies lose value when their economies don't produce enough. The whole "confidence" argument is baloney, at least at the start. Months or years into hyperinflation, sure, people are not going to have confidence in the currency, and for good reason. But currencies lose value for real, economic reasons, not because of the Confidence Fairy.

    Look at any incidence of hyperinflation. You can trace every one of them to a solid, logical reason or reasons. Lack of confidence is not a cause, it is a result. It's an easy explanation used by people who are too lazy or simply unable to figure out the real reason(s) for inflation.
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    Re: Reverand Paul gives a sermon on the Book of Fiscal Conservatism

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnfrmClevelan View Post
    No, it just means that the economy cannot handle unlimited demand. That has always been the limit of how much the government can spend - can the economy meet the increased demand? I've explained that a hundred times already. Taxation is a means of decreasing private sector demand. If the government spent without taxing anything away from people, the economy might not be able to meet all of that demand. Debt has nothing to do with it.
    Yeah.... again false. You keep explaining it and you keep failing because its simply not true. We have inflation now... yet we are well away from full production. Your premise doesn't explain that.

    And "taxation as a means of decreasing private sector demand".

    What a load of crap john. Crap man... 5 minutes from now you will be arguing that taxation increases private demand... the minute that argument suits your purpose. Because that's what you have argued in the past.

    Lets see... next it will be "taxation increases private sector demand by transferring money that would go into peoples savings and puts it back out into the economy in government wages, etc... that increase demand".

    Come on man.

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    Re: Reverand Paul gives a sermon on the Book of Fiscal Conservatism

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnfrmClevelan View Post
    Currencies lose value when their economies don't produce enough. The whole "confidence" argument is baloney, at least at the start. Months or years into hyperinflation, sure, people are not going to have confidence in the currency, and for good reason. But currencies lose value for real, economic reasons, not because of the Confidence Fairy.

    Look at any incidence of hyperinflation. You can trace every one of them to a solid, logical reason or reasons. Lack of confidence is not a cause, it is a result. It's an easy explanation used by people who are too lazy or simply unable to figure out the real reason(s) for inflation.
    currencies lose value when people don't have faith in the ability of those currencies to buy things. The whole confidence is completely true. Especially now that currency is not based on anything tangible and useful.

    The "confidence fairy" as you call it is a REAL ECONOMIC FACTOR. In fact.. its what economics is about.... peoples behavior. Not.. accounting identities as you seem to think it is.

    When you are looking back at incidence of hyperinflation John... your are seeing the reasons that people LOST CONFIDENCE. Lack of confidence is what results in hyperinflation.

    Thinking that economics is about accounting and not about human behavior.. is something used by people that well... either want to push and agenda.. or well have no clue about economics.

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