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Thread: Total taxation in the US is one of the lowest in the developed world

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    Re: Total taxation in the US is one of the lowest in the developed world

    Quote Originally Posted by Incisor View Post
    I'm just gonna stop you right there. When Conservatives fall back on the rhetoric of what is common sense and what isn't, it's usually an indication that they're about to say something completely wrong and/or unsupported by empirical evidence.




    And right on cue, there ya go.




    ????? It's Friday, and I think you're out of gas.
    I can see you are stuck in full partisan mode. There are no truths but your truths. And you wonder why you lost the election. Voters were tired of seeing their high paying manufacturing jobs leave the country and liberals telling them there is nothing they can do about it but they have a $15 per hour job at McDonalds reserved for them. Don't listen. I actually love the fact that liberals can't even listen to their own blue states. The dominoes will continue falling on into 2018 and beyond.

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    Re: Total taxation in the US is one of the lowest in the developed world

    I don't mind being below the curve with Australia, New Zealand, Switzerland, and a host of other extremely well run countries.

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    Re: Total taxation in the US is one of the lowest in the developed world

    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy View Post
    You are all over the map in your retort here. We are discussing taxes imposed on the person. A person is usually a separate entity from a business.
    The purpose was that you selected a person with a high income an income associated with either extremely highly compensated individuals short of professional athletes, and of course incomes associated with business ownership.

    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy View Post
    A person is usually a separate entity from a business.
    Usually? Usually not actually. And even if it were its not the distinction that makes a difference. Vast majority of businesses are sole proprietorships or LLCs and if owned by one person which is exceedingly common, that income is a 'disregarded entity' for federal tax purposes and one fills out a Schedule C.

    My point though was much simpler which is that, irrespective of whether the LLC is considered 'separate' or not.....the income flows to the individual and is taxed, and we're looking at that of course, but we shouldn't forget that, before we get to the profit, the legitimate business expenses include expenses, that themselves constitute some important tax payments themselves, WHICH YOU ARE NOT COUNTING.

    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy View Post
    If you want to suddenly talk about businesses here you skew the conversation.
    Unfortunately you contemplate an income strongly associated with business ownership.

    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy View Post
    The discussion is about personal income taxes. Business income is a whole 'nother matter.
    Putting aside C Corps for a second here, business income flows through to the personal return. In the LLC I had, it was right on the Schedule C, let's say that you and I were partners in an LLC, the LLC would file, the profit would result in a K-1 being reported as our respective share of that profit.

    We could even IGNORE the profit altogether and simply create a situation where the business pays the owner(s) a salary sufficient to make the business' income ZERO.

    You're exempting the unexemptable.

    What do you think a business owner's income on his personal tax return is?

    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy View Post
    BTW... I can most certainly disagree as its not what people are paying. You think they are, let us see a specific example. I don't think you can show one. I gave you a specific scenario; one in which I attempted to maximize the taxes to be paid... I am happy to do a New Jersey example. I have a hard time believing it much different than the California example.
    Like I noted, property tax plus Social Security tax is getting really ordinary incomes from median up to the ceiling itself up to 30% and at that point its just a question of how you're similarly situated. After that in NJ you still have to pay gas tax, sales tax, state income tax, and federal income tax itself.

    (FYI in NJ sales tax is currently 7% and was just lowered slightly to accommodate for a higher gas tax, the ultimate goal is to lower sales tax to 6% which is said to save each NJ family $500 from $3,500 to $3,000 in sales tax payments)
    Last edited by newpublius; 01-06-17 at 08:06 PM.

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    Re: Total taxation in the US is one of the lowest in the developed world

    Quote Originally Posted by Lafayette View Post
    The caption is best understood by this infographic from the Tax Policy Center:



    Which means quite simply that (due to a ridiculous flat-rate taxation of top revenues) more Income escapes taxation and moves upwards to build the Wealth of a comparatively select few (from here):



    My Point: Is this the sort of nation you want for your children, and your children's children? One where the far greater share of the Wealth-pie (that we all work to generate in our economy) goes to an aberrationally minuscule percentage of American families?

    Well, it is the one they have now and will be getting in the future as well ...
    As with all statistics, there is always more to the story. These statistics are meaningless without knowing what percentage of taxes are actually collected by the government.

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    Re: Total taxation in the US is one of the lowest in the developed world

    Quote Originally Posted by fmw View Post
    As with all statistics, there is always more to the story. These statistics are meaningless without knowing what percentage of taxes are actually collected by the government.
    Nope, wrong again. (Try harder.)

    It is however interesting to know HOW the taxes are collected.

    And in regard to the US and most of Europe in that infographic, the latter gathers most of its taxation from the Value Added Tax (VAT) on the sale of goods/services, whilst the former relies more on Income Taxation. Were the US to have a national Sales Tax, there would be no more competition between states and the states would be relieved of the collection-burden.

    The government could then share the proceeds of the VAT with each state in relation to their volume. The states would be relieved of the cost burden to collect the tax. It's a win-win for the states ...
    Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them; then neither persons nor property will be safe. (Frederick Douglass)

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    Re: Total taxation in the US is one of the lowest in the developed world

    Leave it to a Krugmanite to complain that taxes are too low.

    'Tax the Rich!!!'
    'They are taxed at a 99% rate'.
    'That's not enough...make it 100%!!!'.


    In other words...'I resent the rich having so much more than I do. And since I cannot figure out a way to get rich myself, then I want the government to take their money from them. Then I won't feel like a failure anymore.'

    AND/OR

    'My prof/an author/an economist/a politician told me that the rich must be taxed more...and I believe everything my prof/an author/an economist/a politician tells me...blindly'.'


    Krugmanite mantra for the 2010's...'higher taxes, higher inflation, bigger deficits, bigger government'.


    What a bunch of macroeconomic idiots.
    Last edited by DA60; 01-14-17 at 01:52 PM.

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    Re: Total taxation in the US is one of the lowest in the developed world

    Quote Originally Posted by Lafayette View Post
    Nope, wrong again. (Try harder.)

    It is however interesting to know HOW the taxes are collected.

    And in regard to the US and most of Europe in that infographic, the latter gathers most of its taxation from the Value Added Tax (VAT) on the sale of goods/services, whilst the former relies more on Income Taxation. Were the US to have a national Sales Tax, there would be no more competition between states and the states would be relieved of the collection-burden.

    The government could then share the proceeds of the VAT with each state in relation to their volume. The states would be relieved of the cost burden to collect the tax. It's a win-win for the states ...
    How can my comment be wrong? How well a government collects taxes affects the rates it sets. This information is not available in your chart so I question its value. I'm reminded of a statistic I read once that 90 some odd percent of auto accidents occur within 25 miles of home. It failed to mention that 90 some odd percent of driving occurs within 25 miles of home. Statistics need to be put into a context and they rarely are because people use them support their own position. I don't know if the chart is valid or not. It doesn't tell me enough to judge it.

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    Re: Total taxation in the US is one of the lowest in the developed world

    Quote Originally Posted by fmw View Post
    Statistics need to be put into a context and they rarely are because people use them support their own position. I don't know if the chart is valid or not. It doesn't tell me enough to judge it.
    That's exactly what I did. By distinguishing the two major ways in which taxation is applied in countries.

    The US national tax collection is Income Based, and on the state level it is sales-tax based. The EU national taxation is both Income and Sales based, with most coming from the latter. It the EU "VAT" (Value Added Tax) is around 20% on each product or service that consumers buy. No questions asked. No declarations. No "deductions".

    Moreover, no finagling with upper-income taxation rates that allows people like Milt Romney to declare $30M and pay 14% on it. Upper income taxation in the US is a boondoggle. Just ask your New Prez why he wont declare his taxes and what percent did he actually pay.

    Then maybe he will want to explain why some of the lowest taxes in the world should be AGAIN REDUCED just to satisfy a Plutocrat Class that supported his election and is the major beneficiary of Income that shifts up to Wealth. As seen in this infographic:



    You know, a car runs on gas. And a nation runs on taxes. That rule is fixed and unchangeable. All you can do is finagle taxation and expenditures such that one class benefits more than others. Which is precisely what the US has done for its Plutocrat Class ...

    NB: And I wont even mention the hundreds of millions of dollar-wealth held by Yanks that is sitting in Swiss banks avoiding taxation in the US - not to mention the billions that Apple (and other countries operating internationally) has in its Overseas Treasure Chest ...
    Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them; then neither persons nor property will be safe. (Frederick Douglass)

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    Re: Total taxation in the US is one of the lowest in the developed world

    Quote Originally Posted by fmw View Post
    As with all statistics, there is always more to the story. These statistics are meaningless without knowing what percentage of taxes are actually collected by the government.
    You are quite right that the gdp shares of taxes does not allow the conclusion about the dynamic of wealth distribution. So the graph only says, what it says. And there seems no reason apriori to believe that government should have a larger portion of a society's economic activities. There probably aren't even that many sensible public goods.

    The article linked is another matter. But I don't have the time to read it on a mobile handset.

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    Re: Total taxation in the US is one of the lowest in the developed world

    Quote Originally Posted by Lafayette View Post
    That's exactly what I did. By distinguishing the two major ways in which taxation is applied in countries.

    The US national tax collection is Income Based, and on the state level it is sales-tax based. The EU national taxation is both Income and Sales based, with most coming from the latter. It the EU "VAT" (Value Added Tax) is around 20% on each product or service that consumers buy. No questions asked. No declarations. No "deductions".

    Moreover, no finagling with upper-income taxation rates that allows people like Milt Romney to declare $30M and pay 14% on it. Upper income taxation in the US is a boondoggle. Just ask your New Prez why he wont declare his taxes and what percent did he actually pay.

    Then maybe he will want to explain why some of the lowest taxes in the world should be AGAIN REDUCED just to satisfy a Plutocrat Class that supported his election and is the major beneficiary of Income that shifts up to Wealth. As seen in this infographic:



    You know, a car runs on gas. And a nation runs on taxes. That rule is fixed and unchangeable. All you can do is finagle taxation and expenditures such that one class benefits more than others. Which is precisely what the US has done for its Plutocrat Class ...

    NB: And I wont even mention the hundreds of millions of dollar-wealth held by Yanks that is sitting in Swiss banks avoiding taxation in the US - not to mention the billions that Apple (and other countries operating internationally) has in its Overseas Treasure Chest ...
    That looks like the European populist envy tool that is causing problems for them now.

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