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Obama Boom (1 Viewer)

You mean the dirty coal jobs that Americans themselves are voting out of existence with their pocketbooks?

Or the Carrier jobs that Trump spent millions to keep here? You talk out of both sides of your mouth. It's ok to spend money on people when it's done by someone with an R- before their name, but if someone with a D- does it, it's nanny-stateism.

Coal was taxed and regulated to cost more. I know you couldn't have possibly noticed as you don't like coal and believe it deserved it as an industry. You cant expect any industry to make multi-billion dollar capital adjustments every 4 to 12 years and have it survive.
 
I especially liked the article that stated: "Saying a recession might occur within the next four years is a statement that contains almost no information. During the 20th century, there were 20 recessions, or one every five years on average.2 In other words, if you predict a recession within the next four years you will be accurate on average about 80 percent of the time."

And if you predict a recession in a Republican Presidents 1st term you would be right 100% of the time since Teddy Roosevelt. That is what Republicans do...cause recessions. It helps the 1% and keeps unemployment up so wages stay low, a win win for the GOP. The middle class suffers the most of course...another win for the GOP. That is what is so funny about Trump, he claims he will increase GDP growth and will do the opposite and blame Obama when it happens. It is like clockwork.

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You mean the dirty coal jobs that Americans themselves are voting out of existence with their pocketbooks?

Or the Carrier jobs that Trump spent millions to keep here? You talk out of both sides of your mouth. It's ok to spend money on people when it's done by someone with an R- before their name, but if someone with a D- does it, it's nanny-stateism.

Hey, I live in a coal state. Coal is big business and we sell a lot overseas.
 
How is he "letting them leave"? They're leaving on their own because they want more profits. If those jobs are gone, then service industry workers need to be paid a living wage.

So that is what you want, let the high paying jobs leave and force Walmart to pay more. Do you think these Carrier workers really want to lose their $24 per hour jobs and go work at Walmart for $15? And you wonder why you lost the election. Obama has done nothing to keep jobs here. Not one thing. Trump isn't even president yet and he did something. More to come. Stay tuned.
 
This fixation on Presidents, and overattribution of everything economic and financial in the world to them because they were the President during those years, annoys the ****ing **** out of me.

Presidents are not gods. Stop being stupid, everyone.

Moreover, the US economy is like a large oil tanker. It has incredible momentum in the direction it is heading. It can not be stopped or redirected easily, and the response to tweaks in the control inputs take time to see the result. There is only so much a captain can do.

And, even that simile gives to much credit to the captain.
 
Coal was taxed and regulated to cost more. I know you couldn't have possibly noticed as you don't like coal and believe it deserved it as an industry. You cant expect any industry to make multi-billion dollar capital adjustments every 4 to 12 years and have it survive.

Tell that to all the people who were earning $24 per hour and were and are going to lose their jobs and Obama and Hillary could not give a damn. This isn't rocket science. Lefties are more concerned with their liberal beliefs than they are about keeping good jobs in the country. Average Americans vote! Did you forget that?

Coal's demise has much to do with natural market forces rendering coal obsolete. Regulation has some role in this, but cheap (and cleaner) natural gas has a greater role.

The Future Of Coal | Inside Energy
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/apr/08/us-coal-industry-decline-natural-gas

It is interesting the Republicans suddenly despise the free market (or, more likely, wish to use this issue to rail on regulation, even though its a bad example).

Interesting that "lefties" are more willing to go with the economics here than go with the shallow, populist Republican plan to try to prop up high paying jobs with corporate welfare (see also Carrier).
 
Coal's demise has much to do with natural market forces rendering coal obsolete. Regulation has some role in this, but cheap (and cleaner) natural gas has a greater role.

The Future Of Coal | Inside Energy
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/apr/08/us-coal-industry-decline-natural-gas

It is interesting the Republicans suddenly despise the free market (or, more likely, wish to use this issue to rail on regulation, even though its a bad example).

Its laughable. You have an anti coal President come in 2009 and we have had 2 coal regulation adjustments within 8 years. That's not free market. That's a president seeking to penalizing coal for his own concerns. The President couldn't pass cap and trade so he sought to regulate it through the EPA on coal. That is NOT free market. Using regulation to increase cost of one product in a sector and than claiming its free market forces is laughable.
 
Its laughable. You have an anti coal President come in 2009 and we have had 2 coal regulation adjustments within 8 years. That's not free market. That's a president seeking to penalizing coal for his own concerns. The President couldn't pass cap and trade so he sought to regulate it through the EPA on coal. That is NOT free market. Using regulation to increase cost of one product in a sector and than claiming its free market forces is laughable.

So, you completely disregard the fact that natural gas is cheaper, easier to transport (and cleaner)....

Sorry, show a cite that tells is its all about regulation. 1) I did not say it was ALL economics, but the economics are a major driver 2) I provided multiple cites to back up my contention.

Your turn. No one is interested in your emotional argument from the voices in your head. You think its all about regulation, show us something.

In the meantime, I will double down on my contention: Republicans are fighting against economic realities, because, in this case, they want to be populists. Let's prop up the buggy-whip industry.

U.S. Coal Sector Faces Reckoning - WSJ
Trump Victory Raises Hopes of Coal Making a Comeback - WSJ
What Shape Is U.S. Coal In? - WSJ
Forbes Welcome

Do you need more? I can bury you in ton of coal with this stuff.... which might by the one thing coal is useful for *


* - it may have its place again some day...when the economics are right
 
So, you completely disregard the fact that natural gas is cheaper, easier to transport (and cleaner)....

Sorry, show a cite that tells is its all about regulation. 1) I did not say it was ALL economics, but the economics are a major driver 2) I provided multiple cites to back up my contention.

Your turn. No one is interested in your emotional argument from the voices in your head. You think its all about regulation, show us something.

In the meantime, I will double down on my contention: Republicans are fighting against economic realities, because, in this case, they want to be populists. Let's prop up the buggy-whip industry.

U.S. Coal Sector Faces Reckoning - WSJ
Trump Victory Raises Hopes of Coal Making a Comeback - WSJ
What Shape Is U.S. Coal In? - WSJ
Forbes Welcome

Do you need more? I can bury you in ton of coal with this stuff.... which might by the one thing coal is useful for *


* - it may have its place again some day...when the economics are right

No, you just implied it was all economics.

Inside the war on coal
http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2012/07/the-assault-on-coal-and-american-consumers
http://spectrum.ieee.org/energywise...a-issues-regulations-for-new-coalfired-plants
http://www.governing.com/gov-data/e...plants-to-shut-down-from-EPA-regulations.html
https://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/prog/energy/coal_and_non-energy.html
https://www.americanactionforum.org...costs-of-the-administrations-coal-moratorium/

Sure, its all economics.
 
The great economic genius doesn't see the difference between tariffs and tax policy/regulations? Partisanship seems to be corrupting your thought processes.

It doesn't take an economic genius to grasp the concept of intervention (nose where it doesn't belong). And just so you are aware... tariffs are a form of taxation/regulation!

The fail is getting a bit overwhelming.
 
Its laughable. You have an anti coal President come in 2009 and we have had 2 coal regulation adjustments within 8 years. That's not free market. That's a president seeking to penalizing coal for his own concerns. The President couldn't pass cap and trade so he sought to regulate it through the EPA on coal. That is NOT free market. Using regulation to increase cost of one product in a sector and than claiming its free market forces is laughable.

You do have a history of towing the party line, whatever it may be at the time:

employment_graph.jpg
 
So that is what you want, let the high paying jobs leave and force Walmart to pay more. Do you think these Carrier workers really want to lose their $24 per hour jobs and go work at Walmart for $15? And you wonder why you lost the election. Obama has done nothing to keep jobs here. Not one thing. Trump isn't even president yet and he did something. More to come. Stay tuned.

Right. It was the tooth fairy that saved the US auto industry and millions of jobs, Obama had nothing to do with it.
 
1) Actually, Both major parities cut funding to WIOA. Obama slashed it by $500m last year as part of his budget.
When the WIOA Congressional Budget Justification for 2016 boosted the annual request from $3.1bn to $3.4bn, that's an example of Obama lopping $500m off the budget? When it got enacted at $3.3bn, does that count? When the 2017 request went up to $3.5bn, was that also a cut?

Are Republicans now fans of the Department of Labor?


2) Unions are ABSOLUTELY useless when you are competing overseas.
We're not talking about overseas competition. We're talking about politicians working on behalf of their constituents, and that tends to happen when some of those constituents unionize, and try to exert influence on their behalf. Oh, that happens to include things like opposition to NAFTA, or going on strike against outsourcing... (Big Gains for Striking Verizon Workers in New Agreement | Communications Workers of America)


No, regulation is actually doing. Industries that survived for 20 years after NAFTA are now going out of business left and right. We are talking about jobs that can't be transplanted because of wages.
There's no evidence any companies left the US because of Sarbanes-Oxley. Banks didn't leave because of Dodd-Frank. Companies didn't even bust lots of workers down to part-time because of the ACA. Even you acknowledge that labor costs are the primary driver in that very same post.

Which regulations drove companies out? Perhaps it's the laws banning child labor? Or the ones stipulating proper fire safety codes? Or maybe you like it when companies can dump toxic waste on the side of the road?

The evidence indicates that regulation has little effect on jobs, and doesn't drive out companies. It mostly just shifts jobs around.
https://www.propublica.org/blog/item/whats-the-evidence-that-regulations-kill-jobs


Coal power plants are closing at rates unseen since EPA rule changing in 2011. AEP has closed 6,500 megawatts since 2011. Use to be for every two closed plant, one would be built. Now it's more like 4 to 1. Coal went from 50% of all MW provided in the US to less then 34% since 2008. That has meant 83,000 jobs lost in Appalachia.
Yes, that had absolutely nothing to do with increased automation, competition from cheaper coal mines in the Western US, China dropping coal consumption, and Appalachian mines having tapped out much of their easy-to-reach coal.

Wyoming produces 58,000 short tons per miner, per year. West Virginia produces 5,700 short tons per miner. Do you really think an increase in coal demand will benefit Appalachian coal miners?

You do know that coal production barely changed between 2010 and 2014? It dropped around 10% in 2015, and is looking lower in 2016. Did all those West Virginia coal miner jobs only evaporate 6 months ago?
https://www.eia.gov/coal/production/quarterly/pdf/t1p01p1.pdf

Answer: NO. In 1980, the US had 228,000 coal miners and produced 829m short tons. In 2013, it took 80,000 miners to produce 982m short tons. Individual productivity shot up from 3.6 to 12.25. I don't suppose THAT could have anything to do with the loss of mining jobs? Unpossible!

You do understand that as coal-related jobs dropped between 2008 and 2015, twice as many jobs were created in NG, and 1.5 times more jobs were created in the wind and solar industries? Oh, wait. Because those jobs were not all created in West Virginia, they don't count.


Appalachia doesn't have a weak educational system. We are talking about an area which Penn State, Pitt, VA Tech, WVU, Ohio University, University of Tennessee, University of Kentucky, and Clemson.
Yes, I'm sure the primary and secondary education in Appalachia is just as good as in Newton, MA or Mill Valley, CA.

C'mon, man. Most education funding is local; Appalachia is Not Rich. Since when is poverty, combined with low population density, the key to educational success?

You do know that Appalachia is at roughly half the US average for attending postsecondary education? That 17% of adults aged 25 and older have a college degree? That 27% of adults over 24 did not complete high school?


ARC budget varies and how it's calculated. I.E. Highway funding can come out of the Highway Trust Fund and not count against the ARC. But since 1965 $10b (not adjusting for inflation, it's close to $20b then) has been spent.
Uh huh.

We're talking about $20 billion spent over a 50 year period -- and that includes highway spending.

We're also talking about Appalachia going from 295 high poverty counties in 1965, to 110 in 2010. Someone must've done something right.

02-RD-ARC-maps-large.jpg
 
Right. It was the tooth fairy that saved the US auto industry and millions of jobs, Obama had nothing to do with it.

If you don't count all the jobs Obama saved, he didn't save any jobs!
 
Its laughable. You have an anti coal President come in 2009 and we have had 2 coal regulation adjustments within 8 years. That's not free market.
It's laughable. People have strong opinions, which are contradicted by the facts.

Coal production by year, in thousands of short tons
2010 = 1,084,368
2011 = 1,095,628
2012 = 1,016,458
2013 = 984,842
2014 = 1,000,049
2015 = 896,977

1980: Production 829 million ST || # of miners 228,569 || annual production per miner 3.63
2013: Production 982 million ST || # of miners 80,209 || annual production per miner 12.25

Price of thermal coal:
2011 = $80/ST
2016 = $40/ST

Yep.

That's coal production holding steady until 2015. Prices cut in half since 2011. Productivity quadrupling between 1980 and 2013.

You wanna know why coal miners are losing their jobs? It's not regulation. It's not that the price went up, as it did the opposite. It's automation and productivity gains. And that IS a free market.
 
Right. It was the tooth fairy that saved the US auto industry and millions of jobs, Obama had nothing to do with it.

What have you done for me lately? Nothing. As I said, you guys lost the election because blue collar voters in three blue states were taken for granted and ignored by the liberal machine who cared more about their liberal agenda than they did in the people who vote. But, keep on blaming Russia for hacking (not doctoring) and exposing factual information on how the Clinton Crime Syndicate works and don't listen to what the voters told you about jobs. Hint: they don't want to work at Walmart or McDonalds for $15 per hour.
 
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It's laughable. People have strong opinions, which are contradicted by the facts.

Coal production by year, in thousands of short tons
2010 = 1,084,368
2011 = 1,095,628
2012 = 1,016,458
2013 = 984,842
2014 = 1,000,049
2015 = 896,977

1980: Production 829 million ST || # of miners 228,569 || annual production per miner 3.63
2013: Production 982 million ST || # of miners 80,209 || annual production per miner 12.25

Price of thermal coal:
2011 = $80/ST
2016 = $40/ST

Yep.

That's coal production holding steady until 2015. Prices cut in half since 2011. Productivity quadrupling between 1980 and 2013.

You wanna know why coal miners are losing their jobs? It's not regulation. It's not that the price went up, as it did the opposite. It's automation and productivity gains. And that IS a free market.

You really don't understand the issue at all. Its not the cost of getting it out of the ground or the price of the end product or even the productivity gains. Its the cost of converting coal to energy where the cost has skyrocketed.

Supply isn't the problem, bottlenecked demand by increasing cost to burn it is the problem. Please source your numbers as well.
 
You do have a history of towing the party line, whatever it may be at the time:

employment_graph.jpg

We don't just have coal jobs leaving, we now have coal plant jobs leaving. Please source your graphs.
 
Its laughable. You have an anti coal President come in 2009 and we have had 2 coal regulation adjustments within 8 years. That's not free market. That's a president seeking to penalizing coal for his own concerns. The President couldn't pass cap and trade so he sought to regulate it through the EPA on coal. That is NOT free market. Using regulation to increase cost of one product in a sector and than claiming its free market forces is laughable.

I'm glad he did. Coal isn't good for breathing and people want more renewable cleaner burning sources. The government would have subsidize the coal industry to keep jobs, like they do for nuclear power (also banking, agriculture, military, etc.) ....and that's not free market, either. Laissez faire free market is a joke.
 
I'm glad he did. Coal isn't good for breathing and people want more renewable cleaner burning sources. The government would have subsidize the coal industry to keep jobs, like they do for nuclear power (also banking, agriculture, military, etc.) ....and that's not free market, either. Laissez faire free market is a joke.

I'm so glad you are for a President enacting policy through regulation that didn't pass congress. Post tagged for later evisceration.
 

How did you conclude that I said it was ALL economics from this statement?

Coal's demise has much to do with natural market forces rendering coal obsolete. Regulation has some role in this, but cheap (and cleaner) natural gas has a greater role.

Of course, blaming regulation is only appropriate when its EXCESSIVE regulation. Is that the case here?

The coal industry is heavily regulated for good reason: it is exceptionally exploitive: 1) its an extractive industry that wreck havoc with the environment; 2) abandoned mines are health and safety risks; 3) it is one of the most dangerous jobs one can have... the death rate amongst miners was 1 in 300 in the early 1900's, workers also had amongst the highest number or claims in workers compensation and workers were subjected to inhaling coal dust which often led to black lung disease.

The life expectancy of an underground coal miner that began work at 16 is 49.
http://arlweb.msha.gov/stats/centurystats/coalstats.asp
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9090281

Coal mining is the quintessential "dirty job". It needs a fair amount of regulation and oversite to exist. This is not an industry we should be "propping up" by government subsidies or looking the other way on safety and the environment, especially when we have cleaner and cheaper alternatives.
 
How did you conclude that I said it was ALL economics from this statement?



Of course, blaming regulation is only appropriate when its EXCESSIVE regulation. Is that the case here?

The coal industry is heavily regulated for good reason: it is exceptionally exploitive: 1) its an extractive industry that wreck havoc with the environment; 2) abandoned mines are health and safety risks; 3) it is one of the most dangerous jobs one can have... the death rate amongst miners was 1 in 300 in the early 1900's, workers also had amongst the highest number or claims in workers compensation and workers were subjected to inhaling coal dust which often led to black lung disease.

The life expectancy of an underground coal miner that began work at 16 is 49.
Coal Mining Fatality Statistics: 1900-2013
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9090281

Coal mining is the quintessential "dirty job". It needs a fair amount of regulation and oversite to exist. This is not an industry we should be "propping up" by government subsidies or looking the other way on safety and the environment, especially when we have cleaner and cheaper alternatives.

Please show where I was making that argument. I am asking that it not be regulated so heavily that it becomes impossible to compete. Besides that, it is not the mining that is being taxed or regulated, it is the burning or energy extraction.
 
I'm glad he did. Coal isn't good for breathing and people want more renewable cleaner burning sources. The government would have subsidize the coal industry to keep jobs, like they do for nuclear power (also banking, agriculture, military, etc.) ....and that's not free market, either. Laissez faire free market is a joke.
Trump is saying that he is going to bring back coal. I don't know how he is going to do it because once the coal is brought up (the hard way too, because they need to dig deeper. ) what are they going to do with it? Natural gas is a lot more cheaper and more people are switching over. :shrug:
 
Please show where I was making that argument. I am asking that it not be regulated so heavily that it becomes impossible to compete. Besides that, it is not the mining that is being taxed or regulated, it is the burning or energy extraction.

For the record, I did not mean to suggest that YOU were making that argument. I was arguing more with the general notion that the government should do things to rescue the industry other than roll back UNNECESSARY regulations. I do question, however, how many existing regulations fit in the "unnecessary" catagory, as I pointed out, its an industry that should be reasonably regulated (for health, safety and environmental considerations).

Severance taxes have existed for a long time on extractive industries (including petroleum and precious metals). It is, in essence, a royalty paid to the government for taking an unrenewable resource from the ground. Open pit mines typically also pay a reclamation tax to pay the cost of returning the land to its original state, like a good boy scout would. Each of those taxes have been part of the playing rules for decades. Severance taxes are also levied on natural gas extraction.

Right now, IMHO, we should let the natural gas bubble play out and leave the coal in the ground. The energy content of coal is not going away. There will be a time when coal is, once again, attractive economically. That may come because suddenly natural gas is depleted and further development expensive, but more likely, it will happen as a result of technology that makes coal extraction cheaper and safer and/or burning it, safer.

In the short run, the idea that we should be artificially saving the coal industry is unbecoming a free-market conservative; its just populist nonsense.
 
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