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National debts of countries.

imagep said:
Peter Schiff? Really? That's the guy who always predicts financial collapse every year, and who was only right once out of the last 20 years of predictions.



And threads on DP, many of which you and I contributed to? I didn't find anything convincing in them either, but if I had been convinced when I originally read those threads, I suppose we wouldn't be having this conversation.
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Exactly! You see what you want to see. You read what you want to read. You hear what you want to hear. There are many detailed explanations and papers from many economic experts with much more knowledge than all of us on DP added together who debunk the minority theory MMT and yet the handful of you on here, with one thousandth the education of the experts, believe in the tooth fairy and only see what you want to believe and dismiss the many experts who call MMT bunk. Peter Schiff was only one of many. There are many well known economists who call it bunk. They are all listed throughout those threads for anyone who wants to take the time.
 
imagep said:
You don't see the hypocracy in that statement?

First you say that liberals should declare something totally good or bad. Then you compare that to liberals who claim that something was 100% Bush's fault. If they say that the mortgage bubble was 100% Bush's fault, then it sounds to me like they are doing exactly what you wish them to do - they have taken an absolute position.

You don't see the irony there?
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What I say is that liberals pull things out of their asses to prove their points. They say that Reagan is the father of all evil and then they turn around and claim that Reagan proved that deficits don't matter. If Reagan is so evil then they are saying that deficits are evil to or, if deficits don't matter, then Reagan wasn't so evil after all. They are the ones who are hypocrites in any number of things, from A to Z, with the most recent one being attacking Trump before the election for refusing to say he would accept the election results and claiming that they agree with Michelle Obama that when the opposition goes low we go high, and yet here we are after the election and they are the ones crying foul and doing recounts and taking the low road.
 
imagep said:
I have never ever seen or heard an MMT'r make that claim.

When MMTers say that the government can print all the money that it wants to print, they are absolutely correct. They aren't making the claim that doing so is a good thing, or that there are no mal-consequences to doing so.
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Here we go with that stupid ass **** again. Why on Earth would an MMT'r claim that we can print all the money we want and then turn right around and say that we shouldn't do it? That's just ridiculously stupid. What's the point in saying it in the first place? I can say that we can wrap toilet paper around the earth a thousand times to but that we really shouldn't do it. What would be the point of me saying it in the first place? MMT'rs say that there are no limits but when pressed then they say that well, yes, there are limits, but then when pressed again they repeat what they said the first time that there really are no limits and refuse to answer what the limits are when they said there were limits. Anyone who wants to take the time can look through all of those links I posted and I and many others keep on pressing them for what their limits are and they never answer even once. The main problem with MMT is it assumes that nothing can ever go wrong anywhere to anything. In order for MMT to work without blowing up, nothing bad can ever happen. That's not reality. MMT is not reality. It is for the perfect planet where nothing ever goes wrong anywhere, anytime.
 
Mach said:
I know of none that claim that. I'm being serious, I looked for that too for a while. I have seen some be sloppy and they seem to imply it, but on direct question, they don't claim that. What they generally mean is that in the current realm of spending/debt, its largely irrelevant, because we have under-utilization of labor (among other things). But if we cranked it up dramatically, yes, I would think everyone would assume there could be dramatic negative consequences...maybe there would be, maybe not, but I don't think they advocate that.
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All you have to do is look through the threads. Yes, they get to the point where they claim that they never meant that there are no limits but when pressed further they can't ever say what the limits are. It is a type of brainwashing that they do, a big con. First they sucker people in thinking that we can spend all we want, have as much debt as we want, print as much money as we want and don't talk about limits at all. When confronted with their nonsense then they pull out all the vagueness by saying that they never said there were no limits and hope the brainwashed don't ask for more. When more knowledgeable people press them for what the limits actually are then they pull out a bunch of vague gobbledygook and slick talking salesman talk and never really answer the question. Because they can't without continuing the big con and playing people for suckers.
 
Moderate Right said:
Exactly! You see what you want to see. You read what you want to read. You hear what you want to hear. There are many detailed explanations and papers from many economic experts with much more knowledge than all of us on DP added together who debunk the minority theory MMT and yet the handful of you on here, with one thousandth the education of the experts, believe in the tooth fairy and only see what you want to believe and dismiss the many experts who call MMT bunk. Peter Schiff was only one of many. There are many well known economists who call it bunk. They are all listed throughout those threads for anyone who wants to take the time.
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Your "experts" don't even agree with each other, so what they say is no more convincing than what MMT scholars say. And if there is one person on Planet Earth who is completely unqualified to make any kind of judgment about who is right and who is wrong, it's you. In over a year of posting here, you have demonstrated zero ability for critical thought. If there isn't a political position to be taken on something, then you don't even know how to approach a problem and come to your own conclusion. If I said that liberals like hamburgers, you would claim to be a vegetarian.

If you ever bother to look honestly back on your posting history, you (like us) will find no substance, only argumentative rants about liberals and unsupported claims that you have already made substantial arguments (which you definitely have NOT). This thread is no different. You are incapable of discussing economics with other posters because, by all evidence, you are incapable of understanding economics. So once again, you link to some website or video that you yourself don't understand, then claim that everybody on DP is unable to understand what these economists (or whatever Peter Schiff is) say, so we should all just accept what you think is the "majority view."

Well, no. There are plenty of posters here who are very well able to both understand what all of these economists are saying and make qualitative judgments about who/what is correct and who/what is wrong, and further, are capable of formulating their own unique arguments all by themselves. You, unfortunately, are not one of those people. Sorry, but not everybody has what it takes to participate in this. Now, do everybody here a favor and retreat to some forum where you can discuss SEC football, NASCAR, or WWF wrestling without dragging the rest of the forum into your idiotic orbit.
 
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Moderate Right said:
Here we go with that stupid ass **** again. Why on Earth would an MMT'r claim that we can print all the money we want and then turn right around and say that we shouldn't do it? That's just ridiculously stupid. What's the point in saying it in the first place?
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It's not stupid. It generally comes up when Republicans claim we need to pay down the national debt, that the debt is killing the economy/nation, etc. That some "bad thing will occur" if we don't get it under control. And the answer is, no, we don't need to pay it down, and nothing bad will happen if we continue to kick the can, just as we have for the last X years. NOtice this is in context of today's growth/debt. It does not mean any debt load is good to carry...
. The main problem with MMT is it assumes that nothing can ever go wrong anywhere to anything.e.
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But in good debate you should find someone who claims that. Otherwise you created ye old strawman, and you're beating up that strawman. It may look like you're fighting the good fight, but you're not fighting anyone that we can see. Everyone I have seen on the forums, will at some point agree something bad could happen if we imposed no self limitations. Keep in mind, when they say "there are no limits", again, they may mean legally/conceptually. Which is true, there are no hard limits imposed on the ability to take on such debt or create money to pay it off...as a legal matter. In reality, doing so past certain boundaries, as you are correct to recognize, could have real effects
 
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JohnfrmClevelan said:
Your "experts" don't even agree with each other, so what they say is no more convincing than what MMT scholars say. And if there is one person on Planet Earth who is completely unqualified to make any kind of judgment about who is right and who is wrong, it's you. In over a year of posting here, you have demonstrated zero ability for critical thought. If there isn't a political position to be taken on something, then you don't even know how to approach a problem and come to your own conclusion. If I said that liberals like hamburgers, you would claim to be a vegetarian.

If you ever bother to look honestly back on your posting history, you (like us) will find no substance, only argumentative rants about liberals and unsupported claims that you have already made substantial arguments (which you definitely have NOT). This thread is no different. You are incapable of discussing economics with other posters because, by all evidence, you are incapable of understanding economics. So once again, you link to some website or video that you yourself don't understand, then claim that everybody on DP is unable to understand what these economists (or whatever Peter Schiff is) say, so we should all just accept what you think is the "majority view."

Well, no. There are plenty of posters here who are very well able to both understand what all of these economists are saying and make qualitative judgments about who/what is correct and who/what is wrong, and further, are capable of formulating their own unique arguments all by themselves. You, unfortunately, are not one of those people. Sorry, but not everybody has what it takes to participate in this. Now, do everybody here a favor and retreat to some forum where you can discuss SEC football, NASCAR, or WWF wrestling without dragging the rest of the forum into your idiotic orbit.
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There you go again, arrogantly thinking that someone such as yourself who only does economics as a hobby knows more than every economist in the world.
 
Moderate Right said:
Here we go with that stupid ass **** again. Why on Earth would an MMT'r claim that we can print all the money we want and then turn right around and say that we shouldn't do it? ...
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Because we can, but we shouldn't. Seems pretty clear to me.

It's probably because a lot of people don't realize that the government creates the US dollar. Seriously, some people think we borrow all our dollars from China, or some other nonsense like that - I know because I watch Watters World on Fox News.
 
Moderate Right said:
All you have to do is look through the threads. Yes, they get to the point where they claim that they never meant that there are no limits but when pressed further they can't ever say what the limits are. ...
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I've never seen an MMTer who couldn't explain what the limits are. Never Ever. And if their are any, then they haven't spent more than a few minutes studying mmt.
 
JohnfrmClevelan said:
... retreat to some forum where you can discuss SEC football, NASCAR, or WWF wrestling without dragging the rest of the forum into your idiotic orbit.
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Hey, I take offence to that. SEC football is importanant. You must be an ignant Yankee.

Go Cocks!
 
imagep said:
Because we can, but we shouldn't. Seems pretty clear to me.

It's probably because a lot of people don't realize that the government creates the US dollar. Seriously, some people think we borrow all our dollars from China, or some other nonsense like that - I know because I watch Watters World on Fox News.
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Why say it at all? Why should I say we can wrap toilet paper around the world but we shouldn't? There's not point to it. The answer is MMT'rs say we can print all the money we want and don't say the part about we shouldn't until someone presses them further. This way they can brainwash the dwebes into believing we can run up as much debt as we want because we can print as much money as we want.
 
imagep said:
I've never seen an MMTer who couldn't explain what the limits are. Never Ever. And if their are any, then they haven't spent more than a few minutes studying mmt.
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What are the limits then?
 
Moderate Right said:
What are the limits then?
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Excessive spending in any area of the economy can lead to inflation. Critics of MMT cite a lot more limits/criticisms, the inflation remark is just from MMTers.
 
Moderate Right said:
What are the limits then?
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the only limit is inflation. But you also have to realize that printing money in itself doesn't necessarally cause inflation. Inflation can be caused by lots of things, mostly by lack of availability of resources (human or natural).

As long as inflation is under control, there is not a single reason we can't or shouldn't create more money, right up to the point that our resources are pretty much being fully utilized (particularly human labor).

Money is a motivator used to get people to do work, and work creates wealth, and more wealth creates a larger pie, and as long as our pie is growing as fast as the money supply is, then demand-pull inflation is exceptionally unlikely to occur.
 
Moderate Right said:
What are the limits then?
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This will be about the 100th time the limits have been explained to you. Will it ever sink in? I doubt it. Other people have no such trouble comprehending the answer.... I wonder why that is?
 
imagep said:
the only limit is inflation. But you also have to realize that printing money in itself doesn't necessarally cause inflation. Inflation can be caused by lots of things, mostly by lack of availability of resources (human or natural).

As long as inflation is under control, there is not a single reason we can't or shouldn't create more money, right up to the point that our resources are pretty much being fully utilized (particularly human labor).

Money is a motivator used to get people to do work, and work creates wealth, and more wealth creates a larger pie, and as long as our pie is growing as fast as the money supply is, then demand-pull inflation is exceptionally unlikely to occur.
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If you have been watching the news lately, forest fires can get out of control pretty quickly. MMT creates an environment of very dry conditions where just one match can get out of control in the blink of an eye. I am against creating this environment where inflation may take off and can't be stopped. That's what's wrong with MMT. It assumes that no bad outside variables will ever happen. Everything needs to be perfect forever in order for it to work.
 
JohnfrmClevelan said:
This will be about the 100th time the limits have been explained to you. Will it ever sink in? I doubt it. Other people have no such trouble comprehending the answer.... I wonder why that is?
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I think you mistyped. Once again, for about the 100th time, you avoided answering the question.
 
Moderate Right said:
If you have been watching the news lately, forest fires can get out of control pretty quickly. MMT creates an environment of very dry conditions where just one match can get out of control in the blink of an eye. I am against creating this environment where inflation may take off and can't be stopped. That's what's wrong with MMT. It assumes that no bad outside variables will ever happen. Everything needs to be perfect forever in order for it to work.
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MMT is simply a description of the monetary system which we already have. While you may disagree with the economic prescriptions that some MMTers advocate for, MMT itself isn't really debatable, it is what it is.

MMT has worked fairly well for nearly 50 years, so if "everything has to be perfect forever in order for it to work", then everything must be pretty much perfect. But personally I disagree that everything has to be perfect for it to work. Our monetary system needs to constantly tweaked because everything isn't perfect. At times the fed may need to drop rates or raise rates a tad, or purchase more or less treasuries, or tighten or loosing the bank ratio requirements, etc. That's one of the reasons that the Fed has monthly meetings and press releases.
 
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imagep said:
MMT is simply a description of the monetary system which we already have. While you may disagree with the economic prescriptions that some MMTers advocate for, MMT itself isn't really debatable, it is what it is.

MMT has worked fairly well for nearly 50 years, so if "everything has to be perfect forever in order for it to work", then everything must be pretty much perfect. But personally I disagree that everything has to be perfect for it to work. Our monetary system needs to constantly tweaked because everything isn't perfect. At times the fed may need to drop rates or raise rates a tad, or purchase more or less treasuries, or tighten or loosing the bank ratio requirements, etc. That's one of the reasons that the Fed has monthly meetings and press releases.
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That's as much of a crock as someone saying that SSE is simply a description of how things work. Funny how it is only MMT'rs who think MMT is just a description of how things work. No one else believes that crap. It is a liberal policy, just as SSE is a conservative policy. Both sides use them as a justification for their agendas.
 
Moderate Right said:
That's as much of a crock as someone saying that SSE is simply a description of how things work. Funny how it is only MMT'rs who think MMT is just a description of how things work. No one else believes that crap. It is a liberal policy, just as SSE is a conservative policy. Both sides use them as a justification for their agendas.
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If MMT is incorrect, then can you explain to me how US dollars are created?
 
BrettNortje said:
Where does the money come from for countries to lend from? all the time, i am guessing that they lend from each other, yes?
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Nope. For the US, for example, our main lender is ourselves. Ditto Japan, et. al.

:) Glad I could help. /Thread.
 
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