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Thread: National Debt Nears 20 Trillion Just in Time for Election

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    Re: National Debt Nears 20 Trillion Just in Time for Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    Why do you think our debt meaningfully is hurting growth?
    I just posted it. There are billions a year being taken out of the economy to service debt. It reduces savings and causes pressure on policy.

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    Re: National Debt Nears 20 Trillion Just in Time for Election

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    You know? You're right. The campaign has been negligent. But it is not as much the political folk that is responsible. We the people let them do it. IT is our fault and nobody else's.
    Just not so much mine, since I have voted for any of them in a long time.

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    Re: National Debt Nears 20 Trillion Just in Time for Election

    Quote Originally Posted by OrphanSlug View Post
    Conversations like this usually miss the point. The "$20 Trillion" mark is not the only stat worth looking at, neither is the breakdown between Intergovernmental Debt and Debt held by the Public without any other context.

    What is wise here is placing Total Debt (or "Total Public Debt") in relation to something, like GDP. To get the below by trend...

    Attachment 67209390

    That is roughly the time frame of the past 2 Presidents, and the 107th to 114th Congresses. By *trend* *(always look at the trend, any one number absent context does not help the discussion) the reason for concern is going above Debt being 100% of GDP and staying there. Probably developing an economic model dependent on continued government spending else another recession and pushing Fiat Money systems closer to MMT conclusions on debt valuation. One thing in our favor is the Fed has been keeping interest rates very low making borrowing inexpensive. Another thing in our favor is the US Dollar in competition against the basket of International Currencies, and for now the US Dollar as done quite well all things considered. In the negative column is Debt held by the Fed has jumped some 500% from 2008 to now (really over QE1 to QE3.) Another negative is if we experience more economic concerns there will be pressure on Government economic policy to spend even more (pushing Debt as a percentage of GDP higher.)

    All that said, for now it appears we are leveling off. Over Obama's last 6 years dealing with a Republican Congress the trends on Debt to GDP have leveled off (influenced by deficit trends year on year.)

    What we should no do is overreact and come up with something asinine like a balanced budget amendment. And forget about Paul Ryan being some savior here, one of the first things he did as Speaker was push through Congress an "everyone gets what they want" spending bill with tax protections, deficits are headed back upward slightly with this and the next President and 115th Congress will inherit a budget concern. Noted by the blip on that graph from 2015 to 2016. At this point it is debatable on Trump or Hillary doing more damage, they both are likely to face a Republican Congress (or at least a split Congress.)
    Im more concerned with the amount of taxes I have to pay to service the debt rather than some graph of some number compared to another number. The fact is the debt keeps going up, and with it the taxes I have to pay.

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    Re: National Debt Nears 20 Trillion Just in Time for Election

    Quote Originally Posted by jonny5 View Post
    Sadly we're talking about sex scandals and email mismanagement, when we should be talking about how our elected representatives (who we keep relecting) have managed to run up 20 trillion in monetary obligations, about 25% to intragovt agencies like Social Security, and the rest to citzens, local govts, mutual funds, of which 35% is owned by foreign countries, with China being the largest holder. This means we pay about 300 billion in interest every year, with about 100 billion being paid to foreign countries.
    Firstly, foreign nations do not hold 35% of our debt. They hold close to 20% of the debt, but you're leaving out that we hold the debt of some of those countries too. And they hold our bonds, but that doesn't necessarily mean they hold our debt. When we had a surplus back in 2000, Greenspan said "paying off the debt too soon wouldn't be fair to the bondholders". I kid you not, that is what he said. Bush said "surpluses mean we're being overtaxed", and that is why the Conservatives passed the tax cuts...because of those reasons (and the real reason...to manufacture a debt crisis). So it's hard to see how you have a problem with debt today when you didn't 15 years ago.

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    Re: National Debt Nears 20 Trillion Just in Time for Election

    Quote Originally Posted by jonny5 View Post
    Im more concerned with the amount of taxes I have to pay to service the deb
    Where was all this concern back in 2001 when you guys passed tax cuts that erased a surplus that could have paid the debt off by 2010, and instead produced four record deficits that doubled the debt by 2009?

    And what is the concern about debt today? We already know it doesn't affect our economy. All it affects are borrowing rates, and the borrowing rates are already low. So all your concern about debt seems to be a red herring for something else.

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    Re: National Debt Nears 20 Trillion Just in Time for Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Incisor View Post
    Firstly, foreign nations do not hold 35% of our debt. They hold close to 20% of the debt, but you're leaving out that we hold the debt of some of those countries too. And they hold our bonds, but that doesn't necessarily mean they hold our debt. When we had a surplus back in 2000, Greenspan said "paying off the debt too soon wouldn't be fair to the bondholders". I kid you not, that is what he said. Bush said "surpluses mean we're being overtaxed", and that is why the Conservatives passed the tax cuts...because of those reasons (and the real reason...to manufacture a debt crisis). So it's hard to see how you have a problem with debt today when you didn't 15 years ago.
    How do you know I didnt have a problem with the debt 15 years ago?

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    Re: National Debt Nears 20 Trillion Just in Time for Election

    Quote Originally Posted by jonny5 View Post
    Im more concerned with the amount of taxes I have to pay to service the debt rather than some graph of some number compared to another number. The fact is the debt keeps going up, and with it the taxes I have to pay.
    So you are discarding economics. Which is fine but it ignores why we are at this point and how we got here... just to make a political point devoid of that reality.
    "Every time something really bad happens, people cry out for safety, and the government answers by taking rights away from good people." - Penn Jillette.

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    Re: National Debt Nears 20 Trillion Just in Time for Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Incisor View Post
    Where was all this concern back in 2001 when you guys passed tax cuts that erased a surplus that could have paid the debt off by 2010, and instead produced four record deficits that doubled the debt by 2009?

    And what is the concern about debt today? We already know it doesn't affect our economy. All it affects are borrowing rates, and the borrowing rates are already low. So all your concern about debt seems to be a red herring for something else.
    What do you mean you guys? Did you know me 15 years ago?

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    Re: National Debt Nears 20 Trillion Just in Time for Election

    Quote Originally Posted by OrphanSlug View Post
    So you are discarding economics. Which is fine but it ignores why we are at this point and how we got here... just to make a political point devoid of that reality.
    How is the FICA taxes I pay not reality? Its more reality than some chart.

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    Re: National Debt Nears 20 Trillion Just in Time for Election

    Quote Originally Posted by jonny5 View Post
    How do you know I didnt have a problem with the debt 15 years ago?
    No one did.

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