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This Is Not The Time For Stimulus Spending[W:279]

Re: This Is Not The Time For Stimulus Spending

Fifteen million, full-time, private sector jobs added. Unemployment cut in half. Deficit cut seventy percent. Very low inflation. Household debt as a percentage of GDP down twenty percent. Consumer and business confidence up by two-thirds. Twenty million more Americans with health insurance. Working-class wages up and poverty down substantially last year.

Wasn't the disaster 2008-09? Wasn't it produced by GOP SSE policies you continue to support?

>Sounds like a plan.

Avoiding a return to what you call for and continuing with Obummerism sound lile a plan I can support.



Lol ! Donna, is that you ?

WikiLeaks: Donna Brazile Shreds Obama Economy | LifeZette
 
Re: This Is Not The Time For Stimulus Spending

Now is the time for a fifteen dollar an hour minimum wage and unemployment compensation simply for being unemployed.


People already get compensated for being unemployed in many different ways. Why would anyone want to work at all if they could make the same amount sitting on their ass at home playing video games?
 
Re: This Is Not The Time For Stimulus Spending

equality is a Social concept not a Capital concept. only the right never gets it.

I get it just fine. I just reject it.
 
Re: This Is Not The Time For Stimulus Spending

Now is the time for a fifteen dollar an hour minimum wage and unemployment compensation simply for being unemployed.

Lol......Yep, its time to destroy whats left of a economy thats already on life support.

Lets just finish the job so we can morph into a beautiful Socialist paradise.
 
Re: This Is Not The Time For Stimulus Spending

See the 1993 Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act and the 2009 American Recovery and Reinvestment Act.
Now explain how those two pieces of legislation turned the US economy around and worked the magic you claim they did.
 
Re: This Is Not The Time For Stimulus Spending

Taxes are not a crime. The crime is shortsighted greed that mortgages our future in order sock away money in amounts that individuals can never spend. We had the tax rates right before Reagan slashed them.

The wealth of your neighbor doesn't belong to you. That you simply refer to as 'taxes' the robbing of your neighbor to provide you with an unearned benefit, doesn't alter the fact that you are robbing your neighbor. You want free stuff paid for by the labor of others and you want to elect people into power to get those things for you. I understand that. That doesn't somehow make it right.
 
Re: This Is Not The Time For Stimulus Spending

It's difficult to engage in a debate on issues when you inject statements not based on fact. I have never heard anyone involved in the Trump campaign speak of rolling back technology, a central part of your #1 option. In fact, I've heard many on the far left suggest that very thing, hand wringing over the impact of automation on job opportunities.

Some of the most iconic moments of the Trump campaign come when he stands somewhere in the rust belt, and shouts that he will bring back the jobs of the hapless unemployed or underemployed in the audience. The jobs they have lost are moderate to low skilled manufacturing, warehouse, and similar positions for the most part. He of course has no clue on how to do this, and offers no suggestions, other than tariff walls and trade wars, which historically have been disastrous, and have been studiously avoided since WW2. The point of my question was to bring this issue to stark relief: either one is going to do something nonsensical, like roll back technology, or isolate the nations with trade and literal walls, or else....face the fact that they are not going to come back, unless they come back to robot employees. And if you had read anything from realistic progressive sources, they would not have advocated destroying technology, but facing reality, and changing our views on work and compensation.

Globalism has caused significant job loss in the United States. It is impossible to claim its "not nearly to the extent that many imagine". Which economists are you referring to? I suppose if someone went from a $25/hr job in a manufacturing facility, and then went to work for Autozone at $13/hr, they could make such a claim, but what of the economic impact?

Yes, some unemployment is attributable to globalization, but it is not as simple as exporting job X to China, and telling the US worker X he is fired. US manufacturing output has continued to rise since the advent of the globalized economy, although employment in that industry has dropped. That tells us that we do not need nearly as many people any more to produce items, something we hardly needed to hear when contemplating cars being built by robots, ATMs instead of live bank tellers, internet travel booking instead of real travel agents, and on and on. And at any rate, these are jobs are not going to "come back", short of building walls and initiating a command economy, where the purchase of various goods and services is mandated by nationalism rather than economics.


You claim that "no one, not even Donald, is going to bring back low skilled manufacturing jobs...." is nothing but your own opinion colored by your embrace of a globalist agenda. At least that is what it appears like to me.

My answer follows in many ways that echoed by Trump. It is not in the National interest, nor in the interest of individuals, to allow the dumping of goods into the United States from countries with vastly different economic standards.

OK, then you tell me. Bring back low skilled manufacturing jobs, pay a good living wage, and then do what? Compete with the rest of the world, or wall off the US? The US will hardly be a powerhouse of the world if it cannot compete on price with items made by cheap labour, or increasingly, even in places like China, computers. Selective tariffs tend to produce countermoves, which can spiral out of control.

At one point the United States was the manufacturing powerhouse of the world. Through pathetic trade policy, regulatory overreach, labor policies lacking any degree of foresight, and tax policies ignoring investor demand, we gave that advantage away. This must be reversed. I've owned manufacturing companies for over 30 years, and I have deep experience on these issue, and their impact.

When it comes to solving this problem in order to benefit American citizens, only Trump speaks of reversing this long march to obscurity. Clinton will exacerbate it.

Actually, he doesn't speak to these issues at all. He tends to avoid or change the subject when challenged, after he has delivered a couple of cliche one-liners, and for good reason. His exhortations have been roundly condemned by economists and those others with some knowledge in the field. I've included a couple of links from prominent economists who have something to say on the subject.

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/12/08/rise-of-the-robots/?_r=0

Economist's View: Stiglitz: A Progressive Response to GlobalizationEconomist's View: Stiglitz: A Progressive Response to Globalization
 
Re: This Is Not The Time For Stimulus Spending

The wealth of your neighbor doesn't belong to you. That you simply refer to as 'taxes' the robbing of your neighbor to provide you with an unearned benefit, doesn't alter the fact that you are robbing your neighbor. You want free stuff paid for by the labor of others and you want to elect people into power to get those things for you. I understand that. That doesn't somehow make it right.

Actually, a portion of my neighbour's wealth does belong to me, in both an economic and a moral sense. My neighbour would not have whatever he has without his fellow citizens, that is quite clear. No one in history has amassed a home, SUV, wide screen TV, schools for his kids, and myriad other things without belonging to an interlocking economy and society, in which he depends on the value added by previous generations, and present individuals who provide what he cannot by himself. Taxes are the dues that need to be paid to live in a civilized society. The amount paid may be subjective, but the fact of contributing is not.

Rates paid for labour, or other payments for service, are also very subjective, and in may cases highly unfair, distorted by various factors beyond one's control, the result of power imbalances, or inefficient or undesirable from a macroeconomic sense. That's another reason taxes are valuable to society, they provide a check on the worst, or most fumbling and destructive human endeavors.

The reason libertarians like to think of taxes as theft I believe goes back to the mental image of a Daniel Boone type out in the wilderness, providing everything for himself from the land. It's a philosophy that is all imagining and fantasizing and idealizing a past that never really was, as the current comic in chief Mr Johnson is illustrating so vividly right now in the campaign.
 
Re: This Is Not The Time For Stimulus Spending

People already get compensated for being unemployed in many different ways. Why would anyone want to work at all if they could make the same amount sitting on their ass at home playing video games?

because, it is disingenuous to claim they would.

however, that is not what i am suggesting.
 
Re: This Is Not The Time For Stimulus Spending

Lol......Yep, its time to destroy whats left of a economy thats already on life support.

Lets just finish the job so we can morph into a beautiful Socialist paradise.

by increasing demand through labor having more to spend?
 
Re: This Is Not The Time For Stimulus Spending

It is the Republicans who forced Obama to adapt policies that have been working.

Completely unsupported. What "policies"?

Congress authorised one percent less in federal spending than Barry requested 2009-14, and through tight management under his guidance, actual outlays were reduced by a further five percent.

>>What happened his first two years when Democrats had complete control? Things got worse.

No, they got a lot better. We went from losing several hundred thousand jobs a month to the start of now seventy-nine straight months of job growth. In 2008, GDP fell by 2.8%, was basically flat in 2009, and in 2010 expanded by 2.7%.

you don't realize that the comment uncovers the lack in work you put in to understanding the subject?

Oh no, I realise it was very easy for me because it's stuff I posted before. I do that fairly often here because members from the Right keep posting the same nonsense. I just run a search on a few keywords and repost replies I've put up before.

Donna, is that you?

A comment by a Democratic official doesn't change the data. Show us where the jobs added are low-quality. You can't. All you can do is post links to lying, RW hate media and LOL. A complete loser.

People already get compensated for being unemployed in many different ways.

So many that you fail to mention even a single one.

>>Why would anyone want to work at all if they could make the same amount sitting on their ass at home playing video games?

Not everyone's a lazy slug. Ask yerself why you look at things like one.

'taxes' the robbing of your neighbor

Just the same worthless, rhetorical crap. As expected.

Now explain how those two pieces of legislation turned the US economy around and worked the magic you claim they did.

Magic? Nah. just sound economic policy.

I'll be happy to explain them to you, but let me ask, why is it that yer so ignorant of them and yet feel qualified to comment on them?

Try a Google search and you'll come up with a lot of stuff for the first about changing the tax code — both individual and corporate income taxes, payroll taxes, the EITC, etc, and about public investments in several areas (e.g., infrastructure, education, healthcare, and renewable energy) in the second.
 
Re: This Is Not The Time For Stimulus Spending

Completely unsupported. What "policies"?

Congress authorised one percent less in federal spending than Barry requested 2009-14, and through tight management under his guidance, actual outlays were reduced by a further five percent.

>>What happened his first two years when Democrats had complete control? Things got worse.

No, they got a lot better. We went from losing several hundred thousand jobs a month to the start of now seventy-nine straight months of job growth. In 2008, GDP fell by 2.8%, was basically flat in 2009, and in 2010 expanded by 2.7%.



Oh no, I realise it was very easy for me because it's stuff I posted before. I do that fairly often here because members from the Right keep posting the same nonsense. I just run a search on a few keywords and repost replies I've put up before.



A comment by a Democratic official doesn't change the data. Show us where the jobs added are low-quality. You can't. All you can do is post links to lying, RW hate media and LOL. A complete loser.



So many that you fail to mention even a single one.

>>Why would anyone want to work at all if they could make the same amount sitting on their ass at home playing video games?

Not everyone's a lazy slug. Ask yerself why you look at things like one.



Just the same worthless, rhetorical crap. As expected.



Magic? Nah. just sound economic policy.

I'll be happy to explain them to you, but let me ask, why is it that yer so ignorant of them and yet feel qualified to comment on them?

Try a Google search and you'll come up with a lot of stuff for the first about changing the tax code — both individual and corporate income taxes, payroll taxes, the EITC, etc, and about public investments in several areas (e.g., infrastructure, education, healthcare, and renewable energy) in the second.

Repetition might insert it more firmly in your brain, but it does not change the falsehood of your statements at all.
 
Re: This Is Not The Time For Stimulus Spending

Some of the most iconic moments of the Trump campaign come when he stands somewhere in the rust belt, and shouts that he will bring back the jobs of the hapless unemployed or underemployed in the audience. The jobs they have lost are moderate to low skilled manufacturing, warehouse, and similar positions for the most part. He of course has no clue on how to do this, and offers no suggestions, other than tariff walls and trade wars, which historically have been disastrous, and have been studiously avoided since WW2. The point of my question was to bring this issue to stark relief: either one is going to do something nonsensical, like roll back technology, or isolate the nations with trade and literal walls, or else....face the fact that they are not going to come back, unless they come back to robot employees. And if you had read anything from realistic progressive sources, they would not have advocated destroying technology, but facing reality, and changing our views on work and compensation.



Yes, some unemployment is attributable to globalization, but it is not as simple as exporting job X to China, and telling the US worker X he is fired. US manufacturing output has continued to rise since the advent of the globalized economy, although employment in that industry has dropped. That tells us that we do not need nearly as many people any more to produce items, something we hardly needed to hear when contemplating cars being built by robots, ATMs instead of live bank tellers, internet travel booking instead of real travel agents, and on and on. And at any rate, these are jobs are not going to "come back", short of building walls and initiating a command economy, where the purchase of various goods and services is mandated by nationalism rather than economics.




OK, then you tell me. Bring back low skilled manufacturing jobs, pay a good living wage, and then do what? Compete with the rest of the world, or wall off the US? The US will hardly be a powerhouse of the world if it cannot compete on price with items made by cheap labour, or increasingly, even in places like China, computers. Selective tariffs tend to produce countermoves, which can spiral out of control.



Actually, he doesn't speak to these issues at all. He tends to avoid or change the subject when challenged, after he has delivered a couple of cliche one-liners, and for good reason. His exhortations have been roundly condemned by economists and those others with some knowledge in the field. I've included a couple of links from prominent economists who have something to say on the subject.

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/12/08/rise-of-the-robots/?_r=0

Economist's View: Stiglitz: A Progressive Response to GlobalizationEconomist's View: Stiglitz: A Progressive Response to Globalization

Two trains on different tracks, heading away from each other, will never meet. We will never meet. No agreement or common ground exists.

I will continue to apply my resources to derail the train you are on before it takes everyone over the cliff.
 
Re: This Is Not The Time For Stimulus Spending

it does not change the falsehood of your statements at all.

If my statements are false, why do you fail to point to anything false about them? I say it's because they're not false, and that yer simply claiming that they are and then offering nothing at all to back that up as a rather pathetic dodge.

No agreement or common ground exists.

Another comment with no substance. It's like Frump leaning into the mike and saying, "Wrongah."

>>I will continue to apply my resources to derail the train you are on before it takes everyone over the cliff.

Resources? I don't see any. You offer nothing to refute Ganesh's argument. Yeah, you disagree. Who cares? Looks like you got run over by the train.
 
Re: This Is Not The Time For Stimulus Spending

If my statements are false, why do you fail to point to anything false about them? I say it's because they're not false, and that yer simply claiming that they are and then offering nothing at all to back that up as a rather pathetic dodge.



Another comment with no substance. It's like Frump leaning into the mike and saying, "Wrongah."

>>I will continue to apply my resources to derail the train you are on before it takes everyone over the cliff.

Resources? I don't see any. You offer nothing to refute Ganesh's argument. Yeah, you disagree. Who cares? Looks like you got run over by the train.

LOL

So you're doubling down on ZERO? That would result in ZERO, the grand total of the substance in your post.
 
Re: This Is Not The Time For Stimulus Spending

because, it is disingenuous to claim they would.

however, that is not what i am suggesting.


You were saying give people money even if they can work but have no desire to.
 
Re: This Is Not The Time For Stimulus Spending

Actually, a portion of my neighbour's wealth does belong to me, in both an economic and a moral sense.
That is not only wrong on every conceivable level, it is idiotic on every conceivable level. And the idea that you attempt to argue that your position is a moral one might be the greatest assault on morality I can remember. All you are doing is attempting to provide a rationalization for you robbing what belongs to others.

But hey, if this is what you believe, please send to me what you owe me. And if that check isn't forthcoming and equal to exactly what you owe me, I will come over your house and take it from you by force. After all, it is you who laid out the moral argument for me to do just that. I will PM you my address and a bill for what you rightfully owe me and await my check. Thanks.
 
Re: This Is Not The Time For Stimulus Spending

Just the same worthless, rhetorical crap. As expected.
Its fact. Your leftist dreams require the confiscation of the property of others. You cannot succeed any other way.



Magic? Nah. just sound economic policy.

I'll be happy to explain them to you, but let me ask, why is it that yer so ignorant of them and yet feel qualified to comment on them?

Try a Google search and you'll come up with a lot of stuff for the first about changing the tax code — both individual and corporate income taxes, payroll taxes, the EITC, etc, and about public investments in several areas (e.g., infrastructure, education, healthcare, and renewable energy) in the second.

I see. So you, the person who will ramble on endlessly here, suddenly wants me to go to Google. That tells me you cant back up your hacking nonsense. But what else is new.
 
Re: This Is Not The Time For Stimulus Spending

You were saying give people money even if they can work but have no desire to.

That would be one effect of actually solving for simple poverty on an at-will basis.

It would be unemployment compensation simply for being naturally unemployed via capitalism's natural rate of unemployment, on an at-will basis.

I am saying we should abolish, "wage slavery" in modern times.
 
Re: This Is Not The Time For Stimulus Spending

Its fact. Your leftist dreams require the confiscation of the property of others. You cannot succeed any other way.





I see. So you, the person who will ramble on endlessly here, suddenly wants me to go to Google. That tells me you cant back up your hacking nonsense. But what else is new.


What MMI said is both hilarious and hypocritical. If we told him to go google something he would be all over us or if we presented a bunch of the first googled links that came up in a search he would dismiss them, saying that all kinds of irrelevant information comes up but then if he steers us in the direction he wants then all of a sudden that information is not irrelevant. He would also say that he does not take reading assigments but is perfectly fine with it when he dishes them out. These are but a few of the reasons I have MMI on ignore. He is not an honest and fair debater.
 
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Re: This Is Not The Time For Stimulus Spending

How would we be worse off, with a fifteen dollar an hour minimum wage and fourteen dollars an hour for unemployment compensation, simply for being unemployed?
 
Re: This Is Not The Time For Stimulus Spending

Two trains on different tracks, heading away from each other, will never meet. We will never meet. No agreement or common ground exists.

I will continue to apply my resources to derail the train you are on before it takes everyone over the cliff.

Hmmm. So no ideas, no rebuttals to any of this, just a gut feeling, one that is better left unexplored?

If I were you, I'd wait until your train slowed for a curve, take all the sharp items out of your pockets, protect your face with your jacket, and jump. Jump and then start running. Because you may think your final station will look like '50s America, but in fact it will be more like a new Gilded Age, not as crude as the last, it will have high tech and the best spin doctors that money can buy, but it will not be comfortable for you, or anyone that doesn't have an income with plenty of zeros trailing it.
 
Re: This Is Not The Time For Stimulus Spending

As a form of stimulus spending,

How would we be worse off, with a fifteen dollar an hour minimum wage and fourteen dollars an hour for unemployment compensation, simply for being unemployed?
 
Re: This Is Not The Time For Stimulus Spending

At one point the United States was the manufacturing powerhouse of the world.

True enough. At that time, other manufacturing nations were in full rebuild after war decimated their productive capacity, while U.S. productive capacity remained untouched. American manufacturing, aided by unparalleled capital investment to support its war machine, was retooled to meet the post war global demand. American reconstruction efforts in Europe and Asia were extremely beneficial to exporters.

In order for the U.S. to remain a global economic powerhouse, we have to harness our competitive capacity... low-skill/low-wage manufacturing is never coming back. The developing world has a labor cost advantage that can never be dissuaded without invoking negative ramifications that do far more harm than good.
 
Re: This Is Not The Time For Stimulus Spending

Hmmm. So no ideas, no rebuttals to any of this, just a gut feeling, one that is better left unexplored?

If I were you, I'd wait until your train slowed for a curve, take all the sharp items out of your pockets, protect your face with your jacket, and jump. Jump and then start running. Because you may think your final station will look like '50s America, but in fact it will be more like a new Gilded Age, not as crude as the last, it will have high tech and the best spin doctors that money can buy, but it will not be comfortable for you, or anyone that doesn't have an income with plenty of zeros trailing it.

You know when the opposition is out of ammunition (defeated) when they pull out anecdotes and then covertly retreat.
 
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