According To Liberals The Living Wage Should Be $7.50 Per Hour [W: 676]

Re: According To Liberals The Living Wage Should Be $7.50 Per Hour

upsideguy said:

The fact that the government picks up the tab for health care and food for low wage workers is indeed a subsidy to Walmart. It allows Walmart to continue to hire at minimum to slightly above minimum wage, with the government bridging the gap to actually havinig a "living". That is corporate welfare as Walmart does not have to pay the true cost of labor.

The reason people can live under the living wage is because we have a social safety net to make the difference. The living wage is based on self-sustainment.

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That argument doesn't actually make sense. Are you saying that if the living wage were paid then we could drop all safety nets to the employed because they wouldn't need them anymore, even if these wage earners wind up making the same amount of money anyway because whatever extra money they earn in wages is decreased in less government benefits? Is that what you want, these lower tier people earning the very same as what they were earning before but just transferring the monies spent by government to businesses instead? The poor are left exactly where they were before!

Re: According To Liberals The Living Wage Should Be $7.50 Per Hour

Critter7r said:

The buyers of labor should pay as much for labor as the market requires, and for the same reason that the buyers of labor pay as little as the market will allow.

Hint: The reason that labor demands more pay for their work doesn't enter into the discussion. i.e. Labor is demanding more pay. Either the buyers of labor pay it or they don't. Negotiations likely ensue.

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Sounds like capitalism and SSE to me. Welcome aboard.

Re: According To Liberals The Living Wage Should Be $7.50 Per Hour

Critter7r said:

Nobody is trying to regulate their morality. We just want them to pay their workers more. No morality play there.

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Oh please. You guys claim that the one percent have slimeball morals, robbing from the 99% for their own personal gain.

Re: According To Liberals The Living Wage Should Be $7.50 Per Hour

Moderate Right said:

Oh please. You guys claim that the one percent have slimeball morals, robbing from the 99% for their own personal gain.

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Maybe some are claiming that, but ....

I realize that they are merely protecting their interests and looking out for themselves because they have the ability to do so. The problem becomes one where there are many without the ability to protect themselves. That's where the gov't needs to step in and protect them from those that are either outright unscrupulous, or merely ignorant or ambivalent of the effects of their actions on others.

Re: According To Liberals The Living Wage Should Be $7.50 Per Hour

Moderate Right said:

Are you kidding me? Who is it that wants to regulate the morality of those one percent who they claim exploit the 99%?

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No one

That's just another of your many straw men

Re: According To Liberals The Living Wage Should Be $7.50 Per Hour

Moderate Right said:

That argument doesn't actually make sense. Are you saying that if the living wage were paid then we could drop all safety nets to the employed because they wouldn't need them anymore, even if these wage earners wind up making the same amount of money anyway because whatever extra money they earn in wages is decreased in less government benefits?

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No one said that either.

It's just another of your many straw men

Re: According To Liberals The Living Wage Should Be $7.50 Per Hour

SmokeAndMirrors said:

All kinds of things. For me personally, life got much better after my home became a single parent one. And it wasn't for anyone's lack of effort. Best thing that ever happened in my childhood, probably largely responsible for me growing into a sane adult.

There's a reason we decided divorce should be accepted. Forcing people who are non-functional to live together doesn't make them functional. It just makes it easier for them to hurt each other.

And more generally to the thread, being single even without kids does not imply you have no expenses beyond your own roof. Some of us have had to take care of our own parents. Some of us help our friends and flatmates when they get laid off. Some are sick, or injured, or whatever the case may be, and even if we recover enough to work, in America, the medical expenses bare down on us. Some wound up with a lot more college debt than they expected to after their parents went bankrupt in the recession.

I'm glad your home worked well with two parents. Not all of us were so lucky.

I'm glad you didn't have such horrendous expenses when you were single. Not all of us were so lucky.

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I did grow up in a two parent household. I am divorced, with two children. I left my profession a half a world away in order to provide for my children and participate in their lives. It was not so easy as you seem to think, but I did value the presence of my parents during my youth and felt an intense obligation to do the same for mine. It was immeasurably rewarding. My comment is simply directed at single parents who miss this.

The minimum wage is a false floor that makes no economic sense at all. It simply makes people feel good briefly, until costs catch up - and they invariably do. Yes, there are injustices, and there will always be injustices. One has to be flexible and imaginative enough to overcome them. It is difficult, but most things worth doing are.

Re: According To Liberals The Living Wage Should Be $7.50 Per Hour

cpwill said:

Ah. Well, negative tax rates are alresy typical due to the receipt of government support in one form or another. When I ran the math, I replaced the federal programs TANF, WIC, UI, SSDI, SNAP, and the EITC, with the NIT, so it was more of a one-for-one swap.

Sent from my XT1526 using Tapatalk

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How did you control for differing family circumstances?

Re: According To Liberals The Living Wage Should Be $7.50 Per Hour

Quazimodo said:

How did you control for differing family circumstances?

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You don't.

Here's the problem .... SSE proponents would like to set the minimum wage at the level they deem necessary for a 17-year-old living with their parents and their liberal counterparts want to set it at a level that would support a single parent with 2.3 kids.

Re: According To Liberals The Living Wage Should Be $7.50 Per Hour

Moderate Right said:

Liberals demanding $15 per hour as a "living wage" don't account for hours worked in a week, so why should I? Liberals claim that $15 per hour IS a living wage without any stipulation whatsoever on how many hours per week that is. They don't clamor for a higher wage than $15 from McDonalds, just because McDonalds only gives their workers 15-25 hours per week.

Many, many middle class families have TWO working parents in order to make ends meet so why should the poorer be any different? Maybe if the poorer had to have two working parents in order to make ends meet, more families would have two parents.

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Demographically, what kind of a household did you grow up in?

Re: According To Liberals The Living Wage Should Be $7.50 Per Hour

Quazimodo said:

How did you control for differing family circumstances?

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The Federal Poverty Line changes with family circumstances. For a single person, it's less than a family of 4.

Full Thread/ Math is Here.

Re: According To Liberals The Living Wage Should Be $7.50 Per Hour

cpwill said:

The Federal Poverty Line changes with family circumstances. For a single person, it's less than a family of 4.

Full Thread/ Math is Here.

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Thank you! I'll admit I'm still a bit baffled.

Re: According To Liberals The Living Wage Should Be $7.50 Per Hour

Critter7r said:

You don't.

Here's the problem .... SSE proponents would like to set the minimum wage at the level they deem necessary for a 17-year-old living with their parents and their liberal counterparts want to set it at a level that would support a single parent with 2.3 kids.

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Thank you!

Re: According To Liberals The Living Wage Should Be $7.50 Per Hour

Quazimodo said:

Thank you! I'll admit I'm still a bit baffled.

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Feel free to ask any question, I'm a nerd and it will bring me joy to run the numbers. I just don't want to risk derailing this thread into one of my constant soapboxes, so it might be better if you ask it there.

Re: According To Liberals The Living Wage Should Be $7.50 Per Hour

Critter7r said:

You don't.

Here's the problem .... SSE proponents would like to set the minimum wage at the level they deem necessary for a 17-year-old living with their parents and their liberal counterparts want to set it at a level that would support a single parent with 2.3 kids.

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Actually I would like to get rid of the price floor altogether.

Re: According To Liberals The Living Wage Should Be $7.50 Per Hour

cpwill said:

Feel free to ask any question, I'm a nerd and it will bring me joy to run the numbers. I just don't want to risk derailing this thread into one of my constant soapboxes, so it might be better if you ask it there.

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I appreciate your willingness to help.

Re: According To Liberals The Living Wage Should Be $7.50 Per Hour

Critter7r said:

The buyers of labor should pay as much for labor as the market requires,

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"What the market requires" is where the price settles in the absence of government price setting.

and for the same reason that the buyers of labor pay as little as the market will allow.

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Everyone pays as little as possible for the things they want and need. So you are of the opinion that government should dictate all prices in the economy.

Re: According To Liberals The Living Wage Should Be $7.50 Per Hour

Quazimodo said:

disagree without being disagreeable

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Yes, I feel it's important that I be sympathetic toward those who suffer the confusion or ignorance involved in disagreeing with me.

>>20-something years being a fairly vigilant observer of all things Clinton

As you know, she has a history in public life going back more than forty years. Like all of us, she has shortcomings. You could say that she's a "calculating politician." Some people read her as a bit arrogant, and she can be socially awkward at times. You can argue that she's not exactly bold and imaginative. But I'd say she's been a competent, professional participant in the management of our national affairs. I figure she can be a reasonably effective president.

>>I won't bore you with my laundry list

A good decision, imo. It wouldn't persuade me.

>>I find her to be dishonest and disingenuous

I'd say she's guarded and wary of being attacked by her political opponents. It's unfortunate. In some ways, she doesn't react well to the "Get the Clintons" cottage industry. I don't see her as being particularly honest, but nevertheless honest enough.

>>even an old cynic like myself just can't push her over the line.

Are you saying you have some reason to support her candidacy despite yer serious reservations about her character?

>>e-mail mess

An effort to prevent her opponents from having access to her communications with her aides and advisors. An example of her problem dealing with those who are out to get her.

>>Benghazi, a fiasco which most people including the parents of our Ambassador find to be despicable

I don't know about anything recent, but at the time Stevens was killed I didn't hear his parents holding Clinton responsible. My view is that he could have been murdered many, many times in Libya. He regularly placed himself at risk of assassination doing his job of representing America to the people of that country and doing what he could to help them. Our Foreign Service doesn't always get the credit it deserves.

>>my only hope for her is that she rides off into the sunset, maybe as soon as next week.

As you know, she's the favourite for November.

>>I hope the legal system will ultimately provide remedy for all those she has hurt.

She will continue to inflict pain and suffering upon her many political opponents who are hurt that she is likely to become POTUS. There's no legal remedy for electoral defeat.

Moderate Right said:

The poor are left exactly where they were before!

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Yes, but only in that narrow context. By removing the federal subsidies to many low-wage employees you free up money that can be spent to benefit them in other ways, e.g., through better educational opportunities.

Critter7r said:

liberal counterparts want to set it at a level that would support a single parent with 2.3 kids.

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But we'll settle for $10.10 over three years.

Re: According To Liberals The Living Wage Should Be $7.50 Per Hour

mmi said:

Yes, I feel it's important that I be sympathetic toward those who suffer the confusion or ignorance involved in disagreeing with me.

>>20-something years being a fairly vigilant observer of all things Clinton

As you know, she has a history in public life going back more than forty years. Like all of us, she has shortcomings. You could say that she's a "calculating politician." Some people read her as a bit arrogant, and she can be socially awkward at times. You can argue that she's not exactly bold and imaginative. But I'd say she's been a competent, professional participant in the management of our national affairs. I figure she can be a reasonably effective president.

>>I won't bore you with my laundry list

A good decision, imo. It wouldn't persuade me.

>>I find her to be dishonest and disingenuous

I'd say she's guarded and wary of being attacked by her political opponents. It's unfortunate. In some ways, she doesn't react well to the "Get the Clintons" cottage industry. I don't see her as being particularly honest, but nevertheless honest enough.

>>even an old cynic like myself just can't push her over the line.

Are you saying you have some reason to support her candidacy despite yer serious reservations about her character?

>>e-mail mess

An effort to prevent her opponents from having access to her communications with her aides and advisors. An example of her problem dealing with those who are out to get her.

>>Benghazi, a fiasco which most people including the parents of our Ambassador find to be despicable

I don't know about anything recent, but at the time Stevens was killed I didn't hear his parents holding Clinton responsible. My view is that he could have been murdered many, many times in Libya. He regularly placed himself at risk of assassination doing his job of representing America to the people of that country and doing what he could to help them. Our Foreign Service doesn't always get the credit it deserves.

>>my only hope for her is that she rides off into the sunset, maybe as soon as next week.

As you know, she's the favourite for November.

>>I hope the legal system will ultimately provide remedy for all those she has hurt.

She will continue to inflict pain and suffering upon her many political opponents who are hurt that she is likely to become POTUS. There's no legal remedy for electoral defeat.



Yes, but only in that narrow context. By removing the federal subsidies to many low-wage employees you free up money that can be spent to benefit them in other ways, e.g., through better educational opportunities.



But we'll settle for $10.10 over three years.

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That was a comprehensive reply. Thank you.

Re: According To Liberals The Living Wage Should Be $7.50 Per Hour

Carjosse said:

It is not a moral decline, just much more visible and possible now.

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You mean easier not to take responsibilty for your actions. That is moral decline.

Re: According To Liberals The Living Wage Should Be $7.50 Per Hour

SouthernDemocrat said:

Demographically, what kind of a household did you grow up in?

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I was from a poor family of four where only my father worked. They occasionally got government help. I was an older brother who had to wear hand me down clothes from my bigger younger brother. I know what it's like to be poor. In my early adult life I was a liberal Democrat but as I worked my way up in life (nothing was handed to me) I began to detest taxes being taken out of my check to go to those (many) who were just leeching off society as much as they could. It is not a Republican myth. There are many deadbeat leechers. I do have empathy for those poor who are not.

Re: According To Liberals The Living Wage Should Be $7.50 Per Hour

Neomalthusian said:

"What the market requires" is where the price settles in the absence of government price setting.



Everyone pays as little as possible for the things they want and need. So you are of the opinion that government should dictate all prices in the economy.

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Great post! Yes, most everyone tries to pay as little as possible for goods and services and yet liberals refuse to let businesses do the same.

Re: According To Liberals The Living Wage Should Be $7.50 Per Hour

Moderate Right said:

I was from a poor family of four where only my father worked. They occasionally got government help. I was an older brother who had to wear hand me down clothes from my bigger younger brother. I know what it's like to be poor. In my early adult life I was a liberal Democrat but as I worked my way up in life (nothing was handed to me) I began to detest taxes being taken out of my check to go to those (many) who were just leeching off society as much as they could. It is not a Republican myth. There are many deadbeat leechers. I do have empathy for those poor who are not.

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Well dude I grew up varying between poor during the good times and poverty in the bad times (even homeless for a while). I remember going 6 months boiling water to take a bath because the gas was cut off. You can boil every pot you got in a kitchen and not get 2 inches of tepid water in a bathtub. I spent 2 Arkansas summers in a single wide trailer without A/C. Anyway, we never took any government help out of pride, mom just always worked 2 and 3 jobs No offense, but you talk like the typical guy that thinks they grew up poor because from time to time their family was broke and thus they can now judge everyone else that is poor. Look I worked my ass off to make something of myself, working 2 jobs when I was younger and am now demographically what would be considered upper middle class. The thing is though, I realize that the reason why I succeeded is not just because I worked really hard. More than anything its because frankly I am very smart. I could have worked my ass off but never been a successful IT professional if I did not have the intellectual ability to do it. There was a time when someone of average intelligence could grow up in poverty but if they worked hard could get a good job at a factory or in a trade. Those days are largely gone.

Now don't get me wrong, there certainly some deadbeats out there (at all income levels some just were born into money), but there are also a lot of hard working poor people that should not be paid slave wages in this country. We have had a minimum wage in this country the entire time we have been a first world nation. Its as American as apple pie. If you don't like paying for all sorts of taxpayer safetynets (the most of which actually go to seniors), then you ought to be for a good minimum wage. Whether it should be 15 dollars is very debatable, but frankly your OP argument is just whinny bull****.

Re: According To Liberals The Living Wage Should Be $7.50 Per Hour

Crovax said:

Almost as absurd as the argument that an entry level job that requires no education or experience should pay high enough to support a family.

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What, do you believe that only educated and job-experienced people should have families? If so, your opinions are ludicrous enough that I will dismiss them out of hand. If not, then perhaps you should remind yourself that most people don't have an education. And even those that do largely don't have jobs that involved their education because there aren't enough jobs in the country that need an education --or at least, that's the job statistics are currently saying. Minimum wage is meant to support the minimum needs of a family. If you're educated and experienced, you're supposed to make more than the needs of your family --i.e. you can afford frills.

There's no interpretation of what you're saying can I find sensible, rational, or, frankly, moral.

Re: According To Liberals The Living Wage Should Be $7.50 Per Hour

FieldTheorist said:

What, do you believe that only educated and job-experienced people should have families? If so, your opinions are ludicrous enough that I will dismiss them out of hand. If not, then perhaps you should remind yourself that most people don't have an education. And even those that do largely don't have jobs that involved their education because there aren't enough jobs in the country that need an education --or at least, that's the job statistics are currently saying. Minimum wage is meant to support the minimum needs of a family. If you're educated and experienced, you're supposed to make more than the needs of your family --i.e. you can afford frills.

There's no interpretation of what you're saying can I find sensible, rational, or, frankly, moral.

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Please show me the definition of minimum wage and what needs it is supposed to meet. What is a family? Is a couple with no kids a family? Is three a family? What about a couple with 2.3 kids? Are they a family? What about 8, 9, 10 kids? Should a minimum wage job be enough to support a couple plus twelve kids?