How to erase the national debt[W:1040]

#eternallyoptimistic!!

pdog said:

I've never known a gardener that was able to stop weeding. The attention must be constant regardless of the quality of the environment. You seem to be alluding to some perfect solution without declaring what that is. Seriously MR, other than a balanced budget, what do you want?

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You are just unable to comprehend where the roots are. Balancing the budget is a macro activity. I'm talking about microscopic micro. You have to change the mentality of the poor so that they know what to do with money when they have it. All they know how to do is spend the money they have so if you just give them more all they will do is spend more. The poor need education, training, and the ability of what to do and how to do it in order to get ahead. They need to know how to create opportunities. They need to know how to take advantage of opportunities. They need to know how not to do wasteful spending. They need to learn the incentive of how to get ahead. They need to learn how to budget. They need to learn how to get credit and use it wisely and how to have a good credit score and how much that makes their lives easier. These are the roots. If you don't change the mentality of the poor they will never be able to get ahead, no matter how much money you throw at them. They need to learn how to make good life choices instead of bad life choices. They need to know what their parents did wrong so that they don't make the same mistakes.

Critter7r said:

Great talking point. Which aspect(s) of income equality would you like to address first?



... to a problem of which you have yet to identify a root cause ...



That's because the "leftist" top-down policies - as you call them - originate with government spending directly on people's needs (which really isn't "top-down" anyhow, it's giving spending ability directly to the bottom), but the "right's" top-down policies rely on the private sector to spend money in their own (the private sector's) best interests with the assumption that some of that spending will find its way to the bottom.



Yet you still haven't identified a single one of those problems, nor any of their sources.

Your saying that "we guys" need to stop talking about the economy and figure out how to "really address income inequality" while bashing every spending program, austerity plan and economic idea while providing exactly none of your own plans to "really address income inequality" shows how little you want to discuss actual solutions.

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Please see my post to pdog. Both the left and the right use the top down approach. They just use different strategies.

Critter7r said:

#eternallyoptimistic!!

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.....

JohnfrmClevelan said:

You guys are wasting your time on this moron.

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I wonder how come I can get a warning from a moderator for saying someone is delusional but someone calls me a moron and nothing seems to happen? I thought we were supposed to be civil?

JohnfrmClevelan said:

You guys are wasting your time on this moron.

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I wonder how come I can get a warning from a moderator for saying someone is delusional but someone calls me a moron and nothing seems to happen? I thought we were supposed to be civil? You guys are up to your usual tricks of name calling and intimidation because that is all you have to offer and yet you criticize Donald Trump when you do the very same thing. More liberal hypocrisy.

Moderate Right said:

I wonder how come I can get a warning from a moderator for saying someone is delusional but someone calls me a moron and nothing seems to happen? I thought we were supposed to be civil?

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What makes you think that I was referring to you?

I think one way is stop spending money on literally everything anybody ever asks for. It's pretty inventive, I know! While there is some spending that is absolutely necessary, spending as a result of political wheeling and dealing is rampant, if you don't believe me the check out Tom Coburn's Wastebook, it will change your mind!

Moderate Right said:

The left never wants to fix any holes in the bucket and they never want to get to the roots of the problem

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Yer not a moron, MR. I'd describe you as "rhetorical and stubborn." I know that can sometimes annoy people because I share those qualities.

Btw, not to talk about mods, but my guess is that unless someone complains, no action is likely to be taken (like a warning post) unless the "insult" or whatever is stumbled upon. I can get John to apologize anyway. ☺

Okun's leaky bucket, a measure of efficiency used in analysing public policy designed to mediate income inequality, is a valuable insight but it's not easy to apply it to broad statistical models. The social environment is very complex, and the impact of effective programs is often difficult to capture. Detailed analyses, in many cases focused on individuals, may provide the most useful data.

>>just redistribute the wealth without fixing the problems that led to the income inequality in the first place

I'd say the problem is more than one thing. In part, it's a history of racial and ethnic discrimination that's produced an underclass struggling to overcome its limitations. That may require special attention. Then there's a broader issue of poverty as it relates to factors like poor education, mental illness, drug and alcohol abuse, etc. I don't agree the Left just wants to throw money at these problems.

Taxpayers subsidise low-income households in a variety of ways — food, housing, healthcare, childcare and early education, energy, etc. How would you suggest we hold back on some of the "money throwing"? Yes, there are ways the money used be used more efficiently/effectively, but I don't see an opportunity to eliminate a whole lot.

Who do ya think cares more than most people about the way safety net dollars are spent? Liiiibruls, right? We don't wanna see 'em wasted.

>>every liberal policy does the absolute wrong thing and even backfires on what their goal actually is

Seems a bit extreme. Can ya offer some details?

>>whenever the bucket springs more leaks their solution is to just pour in more water.

What are these "more leaks"?

>>You guys need to get off talking about the economy and start talking about how to really address income inequality

Those are of course very much related.

>>You seem to think that growing the economy just automatically leads to fixing income inequality.

Nah, we don't think that. It's gonna require a lot of work and success politically.

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I should say that of course there's more to income inequality than issues involving poverty. The middle class has lost a great deal of wealth to the very top end. I figure we should feel good about this in the sense that, hey, it's there to be redistributed. (Well, some of it.) I mean it's not like we lost it or something. We just need to move it around a little.

mmi said:

>>every liberal policy does the absolute wrong thing and even backfires on what their goal actually is

Seems a bit extreme. Can ya offer some details?Unions making excessive demands, leading to some companies moving overseas, huge raises in the minimum wage which leads to more unemployment, particularly to the poorest who need the most help

>>You guys need to get off talking about the economy and start talking about how to really address income inequality

Those are of course very much related.a lot of the poor have problems with education, particularly needing lifestyle changes. Dealing with macroeconomics does not address the real help they need


+++++

I should say that of course there's more to income inequality than issues involving poverty. The middle class has lost a great deal of wealth to the very top end. I figure we should feel good about this in the sense that, hey, it's there to be redistributed. (Well, some of it.) I mean it's not like we lost it or something. We just need to move it around a little.Actually, the middle class is shrinking more due to liberal policies because every time the left raises the lower class up, the middle class does not move up and the poor and the middle class are more merged. When raising the minimum wage up the middle class often doesn't move up with the increase and yet now have higher expenses than they had before so they now turn from being ahead of the lower class to becoming part of the lower class and the rich are still the rich.

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+++++

Moderate Right said:

Unions making excessive demands, leading to some companies moving overseas

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When, where?

>>huge raises in the minimum wage which leads to more unemployment, particularly to the poorest who need the most help

In real dollars, the federal minimum wage isn't any higher now than it was twenty years ago.

>>a lot of the poor have problems with education, particularly needing lifestyle changes. Dealing with macroeconomics does not address the real help they need

Not in terms of fiscal and tax policy?

>>the middle class is shrinking more due to liberal policies because every time the left raises the lower class up, the middle class does not move up and the poor and the middle class are more merged.

I don't see the lower class being raised up much. Instead, I see the upper class having its already very comfortable and stylish bed feathered considerably.

The aggregate income share, which includes gubmint transfers, received by the bottom quintile was around 5-5.5% 1962-82. Since then it's dropped steadily and was down to 3.6% in 2014. The next fifth got around 11-12% in the earlier period, and has seen a similar decline down to just above nine percent. The middle group's share has dropped from around 17.5% down to fifteen. The top fifth has received all that money, with its share expanding from around 41% to now 49%. (source)

I'd point to SSE policies that have shifted income to the fringe at the top. Over the past fifty years or so, we've cut the top marginal tax rate in half, and the top one percent have grabbed a much larger share of national income.

mmi said:

When, where?

>>huge raises in the minimum wage which leads to more unemployment, particularly to the poorest who need the most help

In real dollars, the federal minimum wage isn't any higher now than it was twenty years ago.

>>a lot of the poor have problems with education, particularly needing lifestyle changes. Dealing with macroeconomics does not address the real help they need

Not in terms of fiscal and tax policy?

>>the middle class is shrinking more due to liberal policies because every time the left raises the lower class up, the middle class does not move up and the poor and the middle class are more merged.

I don't see the lower class being raised up much. Instead, I see the upper class having its already very comfortable and stylish bed feathered considerably.

The aggregate income share, which includes gubmint transfers, received by the bottom quintile was around 5-5.5% 1962-82. Since then it's dropped steadily and was down to 3.6% in 2014. The next fifth got around 11-12% in the earlier period, and has seen a similar decline down to just above nine percent. The middle group's share has dropped from around 17.5% down to fifteen. The top fifth has received all that money, with its share expanding from around 41% to now 49%. (source)

I'd point to SSE policies that have shifted income to the fringe at the top. Over the past fifty years or so, we've cut the top marginal tax rate in half, and the top one percent have grabbed a much larger share of national income.

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All that fancy mumbo jumbo does not educate the poor to make better choices. All it does is give them more money to blow, leaving them right where they left off and leaving the rich right there where they left off.

How does wealth redistribution help the middle class? How does raising the minimum wage help the middle class? They don't really. You can make an argument that they help the poor but the poor would move up, the middle class would lose the ground they had over the poor, and the rich would still be rich.

Moderate Right said:

All that fancy mumbo jumbo does not educate the poor to make better choices.

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"Fancy mumbo jumbo"? Which is that?

>>All it does is give them more money to blow, leaving them right where they left off and leaving the rich right there where they left off.

How do Section 8 housing, Head Start, and LIHEAP provide "money to blow"?

>>How does wealth redistribution help the middle class?

Middle-class households receive more gubmint transfers than low-income households. Here are some figures from 2011:

(source)

Now they pay more in taxes as well, but, e.g., a lot of people in the middle class benefit from Social Security and Medicare, programs that provide an intergenerational redistribution of wealth.

>>How does raising the minimum wage help the middle class?

By increasing the compensation for low-wage workers, it puts upward pressure on wages paid to all workers, especially those earning below the median. And by providing a more balanced income distribution, it drives economic growth. Shoving hundreds of billions of dollars at wealthy households by cutting top marginal tax rates and providing big tax advantages to capital income diminishes GDP.

>> the middle class would lose the ground they had over the poor,

Is that a problem? Would a middle-class income be worth less if more people had it?

>>the rich would still be rich

Yes, but not as rich.

It's easy (for an old man like me anyway) to get lost in all the data. Here are some more numbers worth reviewing:

"America's 'middle' holds its ground after the Great Recession," Pew Research Center, Feb 4, 2015

"CBO Report: The Distribution of Household Income and Federal Taxes," Brookings Institution, Nov 12, 2014

mmi said:

"Fancy mumbo jumbo"? Which is that?

>>All it does is give them more money to blow, leaving them right where they left off and leaving the rich right there where they left off.

How do Section 8 housing, Head Start, and LIHEAP provide "money to blow"?

>>How does wealth redistribution help the middle class?

Middle-class households receive more gubmint transfers than low-income households. Here are some figures from 2011:

View attachment 67200901 (source)

Now they pay more in taxes as well, but, e.g., a lot of people in the middle class benefit from Social Security and Medicare, programs that provide an intergenerational redistribution of wealth.

>>How does raising the minimum wage help the middle class?

By increasing the compensation for low-wage workers, it puts upward pressure on wages paid to all workers, especially those earning below the median. And by providing a more balanced income distribution, it drives economic growth. Shoving hundreds of billions of dollars at wealthy households by cutting top marginal tax rates and providing big tax advantages to capital income diminishes GDP.

>> the middle class would lose the ground they had over the poor,

Is that a problem? Would a middle-class income be worth less if more people had it?

>>the rich would still be rich

Yes, but not as rich.

It's easy (for an old man like me anyway) to get lost in all the data. Here are some more numbers worth reviewing:

"America's 'middle' holds its ground after the Great Recession," Pew Research Center, Feb 4, 2015

"CBO Report: The Distribution of Household Income and Federal Taxes," Brookings Institution, Nov 12, 2014

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Please show me where any of this teaches the poor how to make better choices so they don't keep on making the same mistakes over and over and over again. Education doesn't just entail reading, riting and rithmetic. It also includes making good life choices, creating opportunities, and taking advantages of opportunities to get ahead.

Moderate Right said:

Please show me where any of this teaches the poor how to make better choices so they don't keep on making the same mistakes over and over and over again. Education doesn't just entail reading, riting and rithmetic. It also includes making good life choices, creating opportunities, and taking advantages of opportunities to get ahead.

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You seriously think that the ONLY problem faced by poor people is poor decision making ...?

On the one hand, lack of education is a major impediment to their success. On the other hand, that's not really what you're talking about (spending more money to teach them), it sounds like it's more about obsessing over your undemonstrated claim that the source of their problems is poor decision making.

Being poor means lacking money. Why do they lack money ? Because, in order to acquire money, you must get it from someone else, and no one is willing to give to these people. It's trivially obvious, of course, but i suppose i can see how one can get trapped into blaming a poor outcome on the victims themselves when one benefits from such a callous mindset.

Absentglare said:

You seriously think that the ONLY problem faced by poor people is poor decision making ...?

On the one hand, lack of education is a major impediment to their success. On the other hand, that's not really what you're talking about (spending more money to teach them), it sounds like it's more about obsessing over your undemonstrated claim that the source of their problems is poor decision making.

Being poor means lacking money. Why do they lack money ? Because, in order to acquire money, you must get it from someone else, and no one is willing to give to these people. It's trivially obvious, of course, but i suppose i can see how one can get trapped into blaming a poor outcome on the victims themselves when one benefits from such a callous mindset.

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I know you would rather look at cherry picked charts, graphs, and statistics than listen to my real life experiences but here it goes again. My parents were poor. I was a poor Democratic liberal in my younger days. I have known and know a lot of poor people, now and in the past. A lot. A very lot. I was in management for decades, successfully. I have owned my own successful business for over twelve years. I have had contacts with numerous other managers and businesses owners from around the country for decades, as I have lived in several different areas around the country. I can honestly say with a straight face that I have seen the poor piss away opportunities of every kind, over and over and over again over those decades. It's not even in the minority. Almost every single worker I have ever had, worked with, or fellow managers and business owners have told me about have pissed away opportunities on a regular basis. They have no clue on how to get ahead, no desire to even get ahead, and would rather just sit around waiting for the minimum wage to go up rather than take advantage of opportunities that could give them a much better life than to get an increase in the minimum wage. Occasionally a good worker of mine, or somewhere else, quits and gets a better job with better benefits and makes their lives better. Not much makes me any happier for these people than to see them make better lives for themselves but, the majority of the time, they don't make or take advantage of opportunities and just piss their lives away, wanting to just sit there and wait for someone to take care of them, such as increases in the minimum wage. I'm talking about literally thousands and thousands over the decades that I have had personal contact with and my fellow managers and business owners have had contact with.

Moderate Right said:

I know you would rather look at cherry picked charts, graphs, and statistics than listen to my real life experiences but here it goes again. My parents were poor. I was a poor Democratic liberal in my younger days. I have known and know a lot of poor people, now and in the past. A lot. A very lot. I was in management for decades, successfully. I have owned my own successful business for over twelve years. I have had contacts with numerous other managers and businesses owners from around the country for decades, as I have lived in several different areas around the country. I can honestly say with a straight face that I have seen the poor piss away opportunities of every kind, over and over and over again over those decades. It's not even in the minority. Almost every single worker I have ever had, worked with, or fellow managers and business owners have told me about have pissed away opportunities on a regular basis. They have no clue on how to get ahead, no desire to even get ahead, and would rather just sit around waiting for the minimum wage to go up rather than take advantage of opportunities that could give them a much better life than to get an increase in the minimum wage. Occasionally a good worker of mine, or somewhere else, quits and gets a better job with better benefits and makes their lives better. Not much makes me any happier for these people than to see them make better lives for themselves but, the majority of the time, they don't make or take advantage of opportunities and just piss their lives away, wanting to just sit there and wait for someone to take care of them, such as increases in the minimum wage. I'm talking about literally thousands and thousands over the decades that I have had personal contact with and my fellow managers and business owners have had contact with.

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There are about 319 million people in the US.

That leaves about 319 million people for whom your anecdotal observations do not apply.

Poor outcomes breed poor decisions, poverty is a cycle.

Absentglare said:

There are about 319 million people in the US.

That leaves about 319 million people for whom your anecdotal observations do not apply.

Poor outcomes breed poor decisions, poverty is a cycle.

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You can't convince me that I have lived in some kind of a skewed bubble (several different regions around the country) that is completely opposite from reality and that all of the others I have dealt with over the decades who have witnessed the very same things that I have witnessed have also lived in some alternate reality and that when we see 90% of the poor piss opportunities away that in the real world it is that 90% have no opportunities of any kind. I can't tell you all of the thousands of times myself and others have had to roll our eyes at the decision making process of the poor. Well, I guess I can afterall.

JP Hochbaum said:

Economics for the average person:

How do we get such a large national debt? It is not as simple as the government spending more than we take in.

In order to understand this in more "laymen" terms we have to call things by different names to make it similar to what everyday people understand. Think of the national debt as a savings account with the government and think of reserves as a checking account with the government. Reserves is just excess currency that sits around and does nothing at a central bank (think of China and US banks). I have to point these facts out first before going into the national deficit, and you will see why.
A deficit occurs when the government spends more than they take in. But as a monetarily sovereign government, it can do this forever, and this deficit never has to turn into "debt". We could, in reality, change the name of the deficit as "net financial assets to the private sector". Sounds much better right? And it is actually more accurate!

What turns it into debt is a political choice, the choice to create a larger balance at the securities accounts (a government savings account) that gives entities with reserve balances (checking accounts) the incentive to transfer money from their checking account to a savings account that earns more in interest.
This my friends is your national debt, it is a man made political choice. It can be erased with one transfer from the savings account to the checking account.

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CUT DOWN SPENDING !!!!!! :roll::shock::shock:

Socrates1 said:

CUT DOWN SPENDING !!!!!! :roll::shock::shock:

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At a time when growth is pitiful and demand is not anywhere near where it should be.. Yeah, good luck.

David_N said:

At a time when growth is pitiful and demand is not anywhere near where it should be.. Yeah, good luck.

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And you wonder why , wait until the $15 an hour kicks in . :lamo

Socrates1 said:

And you wonder why , wait until the $15 an hour kicks in . :lamo

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I don't support a $15 MW.

Socrates1 said:

wait until the $15 an hour kicks in

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The federal minimum wage isn't going up beyond around $10 anytime soon. The effects of an increase to that level would be highly positive at a macroeconomic level and almost exclusively so for individuals.

David_N said:

I don't support a $15 MW.

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Great , one down 200,000,000 to go.

mmi said:

The federal minimum wage isn't going up beyond around $10 anytime soon. The effects of an increase to that level would be highly positive at a macroeconomic level and almost exclusively so for individuals.

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Yep , we see more and more closings very positive . :roll: