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Ignored for Years, a Radical Economic Theory Is Gaining Converts

JP Hochbaum

JP Hochbaum

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"Calls for governments to take over the relief effort are growing louder. Plenty of economists have joined in, and so have top money managers. Bridgewater’s Ray Dalio, head of the world’s biggest hedge fund, and Janus Capital’s Bill Gross say policy makers are cornered and will have to resort to bigger deficits.

“There’s an acknowledgment, even in the investor community, that monetary policy is kind of running out of ammo,” said Thomas Costerg, economist at Standard Chartered Bank in New York. “The focus is now shifting to fiscal policy.”

"Such countries, the MMTers argue, face no risk of fiscal crisis. They may owe debts in, say, dollars or yen -- but they’re also the monopoly creators of dollars or yen, so can always meet their obligations. For the same reason, they don’t need to finance spending by collecting taxes, or even selling bonds."

"To which MMT replies: No one’s saying there are no limits. Real resources can be a constraint -- how much labor is available to build that road? Taxes are an essential tool, to ensure demand for the currency and cool the economy if it overheats. But the MMTers argue there’s plenty of room to spend without triggering inflation."

"“They’re shut out of the central banks, the finance ministries, the Treasuries of the world,” said Joe Gagnon, a senior fellow at the Peterson Institute for International Economics in Washington and former Federal Reserve Board economist. Gagnon doesn’t subscribe to all MMT arguments, but thinks there’s enough slack in the global economy that “it’d be a good time for them to have influence.”

A whole lot of high level investors and economic policy influencers are opening the door to a new theory.

Ignored for Years, a Radical Economic Theory Is Gaining Converts - Bloomberg Business
 
It's no surprise, considering MMT accurately describes reality.
 
JP Hochbaum said:
"Calls for governments to take over the relief effort are growing louder. Plenty of economists have joined in, and so have top money managers. Bridgewater’s Ray Dalio, head of the world’s biggest hedge fund, and Janus Capital’s Bill Gross say policy makers are cornered and will have to resort to bigger deficits.

“There’s an acknowledgment, even in the investor community, that monetary policy is kind of running out of ammo,” said Thomas Costerg, economist at Standard Chartered Bank in New York. “The focus is now shifting to fiscal policy.”

"Such countries, the MMTers argue, face no risk of fiscal crisis. They may owe debts in, say, dollars or yen -- but they’re also the monopoly creators of dollars or yen, so can always meet their obligations. For the same reason, they don’t need to finance spending by collecting taxes, or even selling bonds."

"To which MMT replies: No one’s saying there are no limits. Real resources can be a constraint -- how much labor is available to build that road? Taxes are an essential tool, to ensure demand for the currency and cool the economy if it overheats. But the MMTers argue there’s plenty of room to spend without triggering inflation."

"“They’re shut out of the central banks, the finance ministries, the Treasuries of the world,” said Joe Gagnon, a senior fellow at the Peterson Institute for International Economics in Washington and former Federal Reserve Board economist. Gagnon doesn’t subscribe to all MMT arguments, but thinks there’s enough slack in the global economy that “it’d be a good time for them to have influence.”

A whole lot of high level investors and economic policy influencers are opening the door to a new theory.

Ignored for Years, a Radical Economic Theory Is Gaining Converts - Bloomberg Business
Click to expand...

So what is this an article about?
Is it about the merits of MMT? Because the article fails to state any real merit to the theory, and actually states plenty of criticisms with which no rebuttals were provided.
Is it about the influence of MMT in mainstream economics? Because the article fails to quote a single economist besides the founder of MMT.
Is it about the influence of MMT in politics? It fails to state a single lawmaker or potential law maker who subscribes by this theory with the exception of Bernie, who the article states has "considered" the theory. And then we are reminded that Bernie remains a deficit hawk.

This is a baseless article about a baseless economic theory.
 
JP Hochbaum said:
"Calls for governments to take over the relief effort are growing louder. Plenty of economists have joined in, and so have top money managers. Bridgewater’s Ray Dalio, head of the world’s biggest hedge fund, and Janus Capital’s Bill Gross say policy makers are cornered and will have to resort to bigger deficits.

“There’s an acknowledgment, even in the investor community, that monetary policy is kind of running out of ammo,” said Thomas Costerg, economist at Standard Chartered Bank in New York. “The focus is now shifting to fiscal policy.”

"Such countries, the MMTers argue, face no risk of fiscal crisis. They may owe debts in, say, dollars or yen -- but they’re also the monopoly creators of dollars or yen, so can always meet their obligations. For the same reason, they don’t need to finance spending by collecting taxes, or even selling bonds."

"To which MMT replies: No one’s saying there are no limits. Real resources can be a constraint -- how much labor is available to build that road? Taxes are an essential tool, to ensure demand for the currency and cool the economy if it overheats. But the MMTers argue there’s plenty of room to spend without triggering inflation."

"“They’re shut out of the central banks, the finance ministries, the Treasuries of the world,” said Joe Gagnon, a senior fellow at the Peterson Institute for International Economics in Washington and former Federal Reserve Board economist. Gagnon doesn’t subscribe to all MMT arguments, but thinks there’s enough slack in the global economy that “it’d be a good time for them to have influence.”

A whole lot of high level investors and economic policy influencers are opening the door to a new theory.

Ignored for Years, a Radical Economic Theory Is Gaining Converts - Bloomberg Business
Click to expand...

Wow, more MMT lunacy.

This attempt to use monetary theory to push purely ideological economic "solutions " is getting really old. Who do MMTers think theyre fooling ?

It's a poorly veiled attempt to justify Left wing initiatives that include increasing the size and authority of the Federal Govt and increasing spending on a exponential scale.

It's the Bernie Sanders approach to growing market economies.

For some reason proponents of MMT never offer up alternatives that would include Supply Side initiatives. Initiatives that would incentivize new private sector investment.

Their theory works, Supply side is a myth. Irony.

Nope. The Govt needs to step in and fill the gap with printed currency.
Apparently " Stimulus to increase aggregate demand" is our only hope and who cares if it leads to misallocation, stagnation, massive debt, chroney capitalism and corruption on massive scale.

The last time our Govt stepped in as venture Capitalist we wound up with Obama's Green Jobs initiative.

Billions of dollars lost and all the American tax payer got for their investment was a bunch of 5th ammendment pleas from corrupt chroney capitalist.

No one was held accountable. Even if printing currency to reach full employment was a legitimate solution our corrupt Politicians couldn't be trusted.
 
ActuallyCorrect said:
So what is this an article about?
Is it about the merits of MMT? Because the article fails to state any real merit to the theory, and actually states plenty of criticisms with which no rebuttals were provided.
Is it about the influence of MMT in mainstream economics? Because the article fails to quote a single economist besides the founder of MMT.
Is it about the influence of MMT in politics? It fails to state a single lawmaker or potential law maker who subscribes by this theory with the exception of Bernie, who the article states has "considered" the theory. And then we are reminded that Bernie remains a deficit hawk.

This is a baseless article about a baseless economic theory.
Click to expand...

It's just Progressives being progressives.

It's a dishonest attempt to sell bigger Govt and exponential increases in spending ( debt ) under the pretense of monetary theory.

There's nothing new about what they're proposing.

Japan blew through 10 seperate Stimulus initiatives back in the 90's spending over a 100 Trillion Yen and invested heavily on infrastructure. They stuck to the Keynesian play book by the letter.

Their economy remained stagnant and their debt grew to exponential proportions. Now they have the highest debt to GDP ratio in the developed world, they're vulnerable to even a modest rate hike and the BoJ is the only one buying ( monetizing ) their debt.

MMTers claim dollars from deficit spending are " liability free ". O'really ?

Japan raised their Sales tax in a effort to address their massive debt. That led to a economic contraction. How's that for " liability free " ?
 
Fenton said:
It's just Progressives being progressives.

It's a dishonest attempt to sell bigger Govt and exponential increases in spending ( debt ) under the pretense of monetary theory.

There's nothing new about what they're proposing.

Japan blew through 10 seperate Stimulus initiatives back in the 90's spending over a 100 Trillion Yen and invested heavily on infrastructure. They stuck to the Keynesian play book by the letter.

Their economy remained stagnant and their debt grew to exponential proportions. Now they have the highest debt to GDP ratio in the developed world, they're vulnerable to even a modest rate hike and the BoJ is the only one buying ( monetizing ) their debt.

MMTers claim dollars from deficit spending are " liability free ". O'really ?

Japan raised their Sales tax in a effort to address their massive debt. That led to a economic contraction. How's that for " liability free " ?
Click to expand...

The sweet irony is that most neo-Kenysian economists say that MMT is really just an oversimplification of intro-Kenysian economics.
 
ActuallyCorrect said:
So what is this an article about?
Is it about the merits of MMT? Because the article fails to state any real merit to the theory, and actually states plenty of criticisms with which no rebuttals were provided.
Is it about the influence of MMT in mainstream economics? Because the article fails to quote a single economist besides the founder of MMT.
Is it about the influence of MMT in politics? It fails to state a single lawmaker or potential law maker who subscribes by this theory with the exception of Bernie, who the article states has "considered" the theory. And then we are reminded that Bernie remains a deficit hawk.

This is a baseless article about a baseless economic theory.
Click to expand...

What about MMT do you think makes it baseless?
 
JP Hochbaum said:
What about MMT do you think makes it baseless?
Click to expand...

Its right there in the definition of baseless- without foundation in fact.
The article didn't provide any facts or merit behind the theory, so why don't you attempt to do so for us?
 
ActuallyCorrect said:
Its right there in the definition of baseless- without foundation in fact.
The article didn't provide any facts or merit behind the theory, so why don't you attempt to do so for us?
Click to expand...

I assumed since you called it baseless you would be able to enlighten me on the aspects of MMT that are baseless. But since you can't name a single item then I have to assume you don't have one. My time is too precious to debate people here not willing to debate an actual topic.
 
JP Hochbaum said:
I assumed since you called it baseless you would be able to enlighten me on the aspects of MMT that are baseless. But since you can't name a single item then I have to assume you don't have one. My time is too precious to debate people here not willing to debate an actual topic.
Click to expand...

I had the same problem with the article AC did, it didn't seem to me to be pro-MMT in fact overall I'd say it was about a different way of thinking but mostly negative. It seems to me in this case you should provide something more to back up your last sentence in your OP about a whole lot of high-level investors and policy makers being on board with MMT because I didn't see that article as backing up that statement.
 
JP Hochbaum said:
I assumed since you called it baseless you would be able to enlighten me on the aspects of MMT that are baseless. But since you can't name a single item then I have to assume you don't have one. My time is too precious to debate people here not willing to debate an actual topic.
Click to expand...

Try rereading my previous post, and the article for that matter. I stated multiple reasons for why it is baseless, and you seemingly ignored it and only responded to my closing argument. By the way, failing to be "convinced" on the lack of merit isn't an argument for the merit of something.
 
ActuallyCorrect said:
Try rereading my previous post, and the article for that matter. I stated multiple reasons for why it is baseless, and you seemingly ignored it and only responded to my closing argument. By the way, failing to be "convinced" on the lack of merit isn't an argument for the merit of something.
Click to expand...

I chose that part because you typed it. If you don't want to discuss that part then you shouldn't have typed it. My last sentence was in line with the headline of the article.
 
Fenton said:
Apparently " Stimulus to increase aggregate demand" is our only hope and who cares if it leads to misallocation, stagnation, massive debt, chroney capitalism and corruption on massive scale.
Click to expand...


The policies of the past 40 years have lead us to where we are now, full of all of those things. Maybe it's time we tried a new tack, instead of doubling down on the crap that's been failing for 40 years.

The real irony is that MMT just describes how we currently run the system.
 
JP Hochbaum said:
I chose that part because you typed it. If you don't want to discuss that part then you shouldn't have typed it. My last sentence was in line with the headline of the article.
Click to expand...

Don't say I didn't provide support for my conclusion when that was all you read while completely skipping the premises that proceeded it.
 
Critter7r said:
The policies of the past 40 years have lead us to where we are now, full of all of those things. Maybe it's time we tried a new tack, instead of doubling down on the crap that's been failing for 40 years.

The real irony is that MMT just describes how we currently run the system.
Click to expand...

Make up your mind. Is it new or is it how we run the system ?
 
JP Hochbaum said:
I assumed since you called it baseless you would be able to enlighten me on the aspects of MMT that are baseless. But since you can't name a single item then I have to assume you don't have one. My time is too precious to debate people here not willing to debate an actual topic.
Click to expand...

he also called the article baseless, and explained why.

why should anyone allow a baseless article be used as the precursor to meaningful discussions?
 
ARealConservative said:
he also called the article baseless, and explained why.

why should anyone allow a baseless article be used as the precursor to meaningful discussions?
Click to expand...

He didn't explain why. He asked what the article was about. I provided the link to the article, I assume he could read and find out for himself, not sure why I should take the time for someone to lazy to read it.
 
JP Hochbaum said:
"Calls for governments to take over the relief effort are growing louder. Plenty of economists have joined in, and so have top money managers. Bridgewater’s Ray Dalio, head of the world’s biggest hedge fund, and Janus Capital’s Bill Gross say policy makers are cornered and will have to resort to bigger deficits.

“There’s an acknowledgment, even in the investor community, that monetary policy is kind of running out of ammo,” said Thomas Costerg, economist at Standard Chartered Bank in New York. “The focus is now shifting to fiscal policy.”

"Such countries, the MMTers argue, face no risk of fiscal crisis. They may owe debts in, say, dollars or yen -- but they’re also the monopoly creators of dollars or yen, so can always meet their obligations. For the same reason, they don’t need to finance spending by collecting taxes, or even selling bonds."

"To which MMT replies: No one’s saying there are no limits. Real resources can be a constraint -- how much labor is available to build that road? Taxes are an essential tool, to ensure demand for the currency and cool the economy if it overheats. But the MMTers argue there’s plenty of room to spend without triggering inflation."

"“They’re shut out of the central banks, the finance ministries, the Treasuries of the world,” said Joe Gagnon, a senior fellow at the Peterson Institute for International Economics in Washington and former Federal Reserve Board economist. Gagnon doesn’t subscribe to all MMT arguments, but thinks there’s enough slack in the global economy that “it’d be a good time for them to have influence.”

A whole lot of high level investors and economic policy influencers are opening the door to a new theory.

Ignored for Years, a Radical Economic Theory Is Gaining Converts - Bloomberg Business
Click to expand...


of course the idea is very very stupid and liberal. We grew from the stone age to here because Republican capitalists supplied new inventions not because big central govt liberals shuffled papers and printed money!!
 
JP Hochbaum said:
"Calls for governments to take over the relief effort are growing louder. Plenty of economists have joined in, and so have top money managers. Bridgewater’s Ray Dalio, head of the world’s biggest hedge fund, and Janus Capital’s Bill Gross say policy makers are cornered and will have to resort to bigger deficits.

“There’s an acknowledgment, even in the investor community, that monetary policy is kind of running out of ammo,” said Thomas Costerg, economist at Standard Chartered Bank in New York. “The focus is now shifting to fiscal policy.”

"Such countries, the MMTers argue, face no risk of fiscal crisis. They may owe debts in, say, dollars or yen -- but they’re also the monopoly creators of dollars or yen, so can always meet their obligations. For the same reason, they don’t need to finance spending by collecting taxes, or even selling bonds."

"To which MMT replies: No one’s saying there are no limits. Real resources can be a constraint -- how much labor is available to build that road? Taxes are an essential tool, to ensure demand for the currency and cool the economy if it overheats. But the MMTers argue there’s plenty of room to spend without triggering inflation."

"“They’re shut out of the central banks, the finance ministries, the Treasuries of the world,” said Joe Gagnon, a senior fellow at the Peterson Institute for International Economics in Washington and former Federal Reserve Board economist. Gagnon doesn’t subscribe to all MMT arguments, but thinks there’s enough slack in the global economy that “it’d be a good time for them to have influence.”

A whole lot of high level investors and economic policy influencers are opening the door to a new theory.

Ignored for Years, a Radical Economic Theory Is Gaining Converts - Bloomberg Business
Click to expand...

http://z822j1x8tde3wuovlgo7ue15.wpe...nt/uploads/2015/06/Modern-Monetary-Theory.pdf
 
JP Hochbaum said:
Which of those 74 pages, and it's particular critiques are you referring to?
Click to expand...

The whole 74 pages debunks MMT and this is not from a hobbiest economist on DP, it is from a well educated economist who is a financial guru and is well versed in MMT. Did you not read any of it? I realize 74 pages is a lot but surely you can skim? It's not really that hard. Most of you MMT believers seem to always think that those that do not believe in MMT just don't understand it. Roche understands it perfectly and debunks it with much more knowledge and understanding and finesse than I ever could. You either listen to someone who really does know what they're talking about or you are so hooked on MMT that you believe in it hook, line and sinker, no matter what anyone tells you, even Roche.
 
JP Hochbaum said:
A whole lot of high level investors and economic policy influencers are opening the door to a new theory.
Click to expand...
hate to rock your world but an economy grows when supply siders supply or invent great new stuff. Thats how we got from stone to here. Printing money and shuffling papers in Washington cant accomplish one single thing.
 
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