Why has college and health care gotten so expensive? Same reason everything got to...

Re: Why has college and health care gotten so expensive? Same reason everything got t

upsideguy said:

Except the US, which has had less subsidized healthcare than any of the industrial countries, has the worlds most expensive health care when expressed as a % of GDP.

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Supply and Demand. The best health care in the world doesn't come cheep.

Re: Why has college and health care gotten so expensive? Same reason everything got t

Jack Hays said:

An example: in a single payer system physicians' incomes are held down, apparently lowering health care costs. But those physicians' lost incomes aren't counted as a health care cost.

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...an even more interesting response. So you are, in essence, saying costs in other countries are lower, because the costs are lower?

I'm not sure what a "lost income" is? Are you suggesting someone took over a physicians practice and made them work for peanuts? What physicians make in other countries they understood when they became physicians. It ain't peanuts and most are at the upper end of the socio-economic ladder, as they are here.

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/15/how-much-do-doctors-in-other-countries-make/?_r=0

Before you cry too many tears for the poor abused physicians realize that in most countries, higher education is substantially, if not fully, paid for. Doctors elsewhere do not start day one with a $170,000 in debt, as they do here, so salary demands aren't as high. Moreover thecost of affluence in most other countries is far, far lower than it is in the US. Because of wealth disparity, the price of admission to the good life is much higher here than in other countries. People can live better on less money then they do here.

Is Medical School Worth it Financially?

So, as we agree, medical costs are lower in other countries, because medical costs are lower in other countries...

Of course, then there is this little matter of insurance companies, the unnecessary middle man of medical administration. Countries with national healthcare don't have the cost of this unnecessary middle man, not do they have to finance the $5.0 million salaries and bonuses of unnecessary CEO's ($66M was the all-in compensation of the CEO of United Healthcare in 2014)

UnitedHealth Group CEO's Compensation Was $66.13 Million Last Year - Hartford Courant

Aren't as many hands in the medical till in other countries... another reason costs are lower.

Re: Why has college and health care gotten so expensive? Same reason everything got t

MorrisDay said:

Supply and Demand. The best health care in the world doesn't come cheep.

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Nor does the 37th best....

Re: Why has college and health care gotten so expensive? Same reason everything got t

_Sal said:

and for this, you can blame food manufacturers

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OK, I produced evidence.... you made a claim, lets see support for your claim.

Re: Why has college and health care gotten so expensive? Same reason everything got t

James972 said:

why has college and health care gotten so expensive? same reason everything got to be expensive in Red China- the govt paid for it!!!

" you think its expensive now, wait till its free"

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Really? Cuz they pay for it in Europe and Canada and it's nowhere near as expensive in those places.

Re: Why has college and health care gotten so expensive? Same reason everything got t

upsideguy said:

OK, I produced evidence.... you made a claim, lets see support for your claim.

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Obesity is common, serious and costly

More than one-third (34.9% or 78.6 million) of U.S. adults are obese. [Read abstract Journal of American Medicine (JAMA)]
Obesity-related conditions include heart disease, stroke, type 2 diabetes and certain types of cancer, some of the leading causes of preventable death. [Read guidelines]
The estimated annual medical cost of obesity in the U.S. was $147 billion in 2008 U.S. dollars; the medical costs for people who are obese were $1,429 higher than those of normal weight. [Read summary]

yes the population is aging but old healthy people put far less strain on your system than obese younger people...especially if they can be supported in their own homes vs nursing homes.

Re: Why has college and health care gotten so expensive? Same reason everything got t

_Sal said:

Obesity is common, serious and costly

More than one-third (34.9% or 78.6 million) of U.S. adults are obese. [Read abstract Journal of American Medicine (JAMA)]
Obesity-related conditions include heart disease, stroke, type 2 diabetes and certain types of cancer, some of the leading causes of preventable death. [Read guidelines]
The estimated annual medical cost of obesity in the U.S. was $147 billion in 2008 U.S. dollars; the medical costs for people who are obese were $1,429 higher than those of normal weight. [Read summary]

yes the population is aging but old healthy people put far less strain on your system than obese younger people...especially if they can be supported in their own homes vs nursing homes.

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1. Your post was about blaming food manufactures and this is about obesity. This is NOT evidence that we should blame the food manufacturers, nor does it even tell us the obesity is the driver behind higher medical costs (is obesity changing?), so this is nice, but not fully responsive to the point;
2. The inclusion does not even support you last comment: how does this show that obese younger people are putting more strain on the system than an aging population?
3. Its nice if you would post the actual link so I can read the entire article

Re: Why has college and health care gotten so expensive? Same reason everything got t

upsideguy said:

1. Your post was about blaming food manufactures and this is about obesity. This is NOT evidence that we should blame the food manufacturers, nor does it even tell us the obesity is the driver behind higher medical costs (is obesity changing?), so this is nice, but not fully responsive to the point;
2. The inclusion does not even support you last comment: how does this show that obese younger people are putting more strain on the system than an aging population?
3. Its nice if you would post the actual link so I can read the entire article

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really?

your understanding of obesity and health care and the burden placed upon it is that limited? really?

your understanding of fast food production and consumption and that 3/4 of the groceries in a store are processed is beyond your understanding?

Re: Why has college and health care gotten so expensive? Same reason everything got t

Health care costs are high as a direct result of government limits. Insurance companies ensure those limits stay in effect. Let health insurance compete nation wide and watch the rates drop. Give people options. Get government out, stop excessive taxes on medical device manufacturers, use common sense.

Re: Why has college and health care gotten so expensive? Same reason everything got t

upsideguy said:

...an even more interesting response. So you are, in essence, saying costs in other countries are lower, because the costs are lower?

I'm not sure what a "lost income" is? Are you suggesting someone took over a physicians practice and made them work for peanuts? What physicians make in other countries they understood when they became physicians. It ain't peanuts and most are at the upper end of the socio-economic ladder, as they are here.

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/15/how-much-do-doctors-in-other-countries-make/?_r=0

Before you cry too many tears for the poor abused physicians realize that in most countries, higher education is substantially, if not fully, paid for. Doctors elsewhere do not start day one with a $170,000 in debt, as they do here, so salary demands aren't as high. Moreover thecost of affluence in most other countries is far, far lower than it is in the US. Because of wealth disparity, the price of admission to the good life is much higher here than in other countries. People can live better on less money then they do here.

Is Medical School Worth it Financially?

So, as we agree, medical costs are lower in other countries, because medical costs are lower in other countries...

Of course, then there is this little matter of insurance companies, the unnecessary middle man of medical administration. Countries with national healthcare don't have the cost of this unnecessary middle man, not do they have to finance the $5.0 million salaries and bonuses of unnecessary CEO's ($66M was the all-in compensation of the CEO of United Healthcare in 2014)

UnitedHealth Group CEO's Compensation Was $66.13 Million Last Year - Hartford Courant

Aren't as many hands in the medical till in other countries... another reason costs are lower.

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The lost physician income from artificially depressed salaries constitutes a health care cost, as does the higher tax burden to finance "paid for" higher education. As for insurance companies, I'm not aware of any research that suggests government health services are more efficient or cost effective.

Re: Why has college and health care gotten so expensive? Same reason everything got t

Jack Hays said:

The lost physician income from artificially depressed salaries constitutes a health care cost

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Um, jack, this is a concept made out of whole cloth, income loss is defined as a loss resulting from injury. Please reference what you are trying to argue.

Anyone POSSIBLY has the ability to be an Einstein, but we don't get to calculate a loss to a system because that potential was not achieved. It is akin to trying to prove a negative.

Re: Why has college and health care gotten so expensive? Same reason everything got t

Gimmesometruth said:

Um, jack, this is a concept made out of whole cloth, income loss is defined as a loss resulting from injury. Please reference what you are trying to argue.

Anyone POSSIBLY has the ability to be an Einstein, but we don't get to calculate a loss to a system because that potential was not achieved. It is akin to trying to prove a negative.

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And that is why the country-to-country comparisons are misleading.

Re: Why has college and health care gotten so expensive? Same reason everything got t

Jack Hays said:

And that is why the country-to-country comparisons are misleading.

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Jack, you are creating misleading argument, please reference where you are finding your "income loss" definition.

Re: Why has college and health care gotten so expensive? Same reason everything got t

Gimmesometruth said:

Jack, you are creating misleading argument, please reference where you are finding your "income loss" definition.

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It's merely a common sense observation. If physicians in a single-payer country are paid less than their counterparts in the US, and you wish to compare that country's costs to those in the US, then that compensation gap in the single payer country is surely a cost to be counted. If such a statistic is not kept then that only makes my point that the cost comparison is misleading.

Re: Why has college and health care gotten so expensive? Same reason everything got t

Jack Hays said:

It's merely a common sense observation. If physicians in a single-payer country are paid less than their counterparts in the US, and you wish to compare that country's costs to those in the US, then that compensation gap in the single payer country is surely a cost to be counted. If such a statistic is not kept then that only makes my point that the cost comparison is misleading.

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Your accounting has no basis.

It is an argument that if a auto worker in Alabama is not making as much as a worker in Michigan, the Alabama accounting has to record the potential loss of income.

This isn't common sense, it again is so uncommon that you still can't produce any reference.

Re: Why has college and health care gotten so expensive? Same reason everything got t

Gimmesometruth said:

Your accounting has no basis.

It is an argument that if a auto worker in Alabama is not making as much as a worker in Michigan, the Alabama accounting has to record the potential loss of income.

This isn't common sense, it again is so uncommon that you still can't produce any reference.

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The lower wage in Alabama is certainly taken into account. That's why a new factory is more likely to be built there. In the case of health care costs, the comparison is offered as part of the effort to change the US system. In that context it's important that the single-payer figures are not biased by mere system differences, like artificially depressed incomes.

Re: Why has college and health care gotten so expensive? Same reason everything got t

printing money to pay for handouts to bums has led to runaway inflation/adding 200,000 pages of government regulation every year has driven up the cost of doing everything.

personally i blame all of us, we sat back and let it happen, and we continue to do so. somehow fully half of you even believe my first sentence contains two great ideas.

Re: Why has college and health care gotten so expensive? Same reason everything got t

Jack Hays said:

The lower wage in Alabama is certainly taken into account. That's why a new factory is more likely to be built there. In the case of health care costs, the comparison is offered as part of the effort to change the US system. In that context it's important that the single-payer figures are not biased by mere system differences, like artificially depressed incomes.

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Now you are flipping the script, you are arguing that it is a good thing that AL has a market environment that causes lower wages.......while you still avoid any reference to your fantasy international accounting.

Re: Why has college and health care gotten so expensive? Same reason everything got t

Gimmesometruth said:

Now you are flipping the script, you are arguing that it is a good thing that AL has a market environment that causes lower wages.......while you still avoid any reference to your fantasy international accounting.

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It is a good thing that AL has lower wages. The health care discussion is not the auto factory discussion.

Re: Why has college and health care gotten so expensive? Same reason everything got t

Jack Hays said:

It is a good thing that AL has lower wages. The health care discussion is not the auto factory discussion.

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LOL...your discussion was an accounting debate on "income loss" (which is defined, it has nothing to do with your fantasy accounting), yet one form of your "income loss" (YIL) is something you do want to debate, but another is what you want to avoid. It is all just so specious.

Re: Why has college and health care gotten so expensive? Same reason everything got t

They cost so much money because you still choose to pay for it at that price, If nobody went to college due to the price they would lower the price to stay in Business

Re: Why has college and health care gotten so expensive? Same reason everything got t

Gimmesometruth said:

LOL...your discussion was an accounting debate on "income loss" (which is defined, it has nothing to do with your fantasy accounting), yet one form of your "income loss" (YIL) is something you do want to debate, but another is what you want to avoid. It is all just so specious.

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I'm willing to discuss, but only one is relevant.

Re: Why has college and health care gotten so expensive? Same reason everything got t

Jack Hays said:

It is a good thing that AL has lower wages.

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So by that logic, it is a good thing that England has lower Dr wages.

Thanks for the rope.

Re: Why has college and health care gotten so expensive? Same reason everything got t

Gimmesometruth said:

So by that logic, it is a good thing that England has lower Dr wages.

Thanks for the rope.

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It's neither good nor bad, but a comparison of UK health care costs with US health care costs should include UK physicians' unrealized income as a cost.

Re: Why has college and health care gotten so expensive? Same reason everything got t

Jack Hays said:

It is a good thing that AL has lower wages. .

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Jack Hays said:

It's neither good nor bad

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Uh...huh, I can tell you have really thought this through, keep on changing your position, I'm sure someday you will find a consistent argument.

but a comparison of UK health care costs with US health care costs should include UK physicians' unrealized income as a cost.

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Yeah jack, I know that is what you believe, but the only reason you have created this fantasy accounting is to try to show that the lower costs in England are bad, unfair.....but yet when the comparison is US auto workers in the US initially the lower costs are a "good thing", then suddenly the accounting is "irrelevant".

Your argument remains specious.