Lowering Taxes does NOT create jobs?

ernst barkmann said:

proc·la·ma·tion
ˌpräkləˈmāSHən/
noun
noun: proclamation; plural noun: proclamations

a public or official announcement, especially one dealing with a matter of great importance.
"Eisenhower signed a proclamation admitting Alaska to the Union"
synonyms: declaration, announcement, pronouncement, statement, notification, publication, broadcast, promulgation, blazoning; More

a president, can make an official announcement all he wants....nothing wrong with that.

but the president cannot create, alter, of abolish law.....with executive order.

executive order is meant to be used ONLY inside the executive branch.

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And where did you go wrong? Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation was strictly counter to the extant law of the land, even as that law had been upheld by the Supreme Court. Obama's executive order allowing "dreamers" to stay.

Eisenhower's "proclamation" was something that had already been passed by Congress - and as such, is a completely different animal than Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation.

In other words, a dictionary definition doesn't always equate to how a word is used in the real world.

Glen Contrarian said:

And where did you go wrong? Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation was strictly counter to the extant law of the land, even as that law had been upheld by the Supreme Court. Obama's executive order allowing "dreamers" to stay.

Eisenhower's "proclamation" was something that had already been passed by Congress - and as such, is a completely different animal than Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation.

In other words, a dictionary definition doesn't always equate to how a word is used in the real world.

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https://www.google.com/search?q=pro...tion&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:unofficial&spell=1

you asked what the difference is........and i told you.

the president can proclaim anything, even things which are counter to the USSC .........remember Obama's state of the union address , where he made statements against the "citizens united case", and had one of the judge s shaking his head while he said it.

the Constitution say that laws of states , which have slavery or indentured servitude must be upheld......states that don't have it cannot negate laws there slavery/servitude exist.

so the Constitution is about LAW........one state cannot negate the laws of another state on that issue.

executive order, is meant to be used inside the executive branch, to use it to create, alter or abolish law is to step outside the executive branch into the legislative branch , which is a violation of the constitution...separation of powers.

executive order has been abused by many presidents.

executive order example........Obama holds a Cabinet meeting, and during the meeting he needs something, say a few copies of the budget and some other materials to conduct that meeting.....he writes an order for what he needs.

The Emancipation Proclamation was a presidential proclamation[1] issued by President Abraham Lincoln on January 1, 1863, as a war measure during the American Civil War, directed to all of the areas in rebellion and all segments of the Executive branch (including the Army and Navy) of the United States. It proclaimed the freedom of slaves in the ten states that were still in rebellion,[2] thus applying to 3 million of the 4 million slaves in the U.S. at the time. The Proclamation was based on the president's constitutional authority as commander in chief of the armed forces;[3] it was not a law passed by Congress. The Proclamation also ordered that suitable persons among those freed could be enrolled into the paid service of United States' forces, and ordered the Union Army (and all segments of the Executive branch) to "recognize and maintain the freedom of" the ex-slaves. The Proclamation did not compensate the owners, did not itself outlaw slavery, and did not make the ex-slaves (called freedmen) citizens. It made the eradication of slavery an explicit war goal, in addition to the goal of reuniting the Union.[4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emancipation_Proclamation

ernst barkmann said:

https://www.google.com/search?q=pro...tion&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:unofficial&spell=1

you asked what the difference is........and i told you.

the president can proclaim anything, even things which are counter to the USSC .........remember Obama's state of the union address , where he made statements against the "citizens united case", and had one of the judge s shaking his head while he said it.

the Constitution say that laws of states , which have slavery or indentured servitude must be upheld......states that don't have it cannot negate laws there slavery/servitude exist.

so the Constitution is about LAW........one state cannot negate the laws of another state on that issue.

executive order, is meant to be used inside the executive branch, to use it to create, alter or abolish law is to step outside the executive branch into the legislative branch , which is a violation of the constitution...separation of powers.

executive order has been abused by many presidents.

executive order example........Obama holds a Cabinet meeting, and during the meeting he needs something, say a few copies of the budget and some other materials to conduct that meeting.....he writes an order for what he needs.

The Emancipation Proclamation was a presidential proclamation[1] issued by President Abraham Lincoln on January 1, 1863, as a war measure during the American Civil War, directed to all of the areas in rebellion and all segments of the Executive branch (including the Army and Navy) of the United States. It proclaimed the freedom of slaves in the ten states that were still in rebellion,[2] thus applying to 3 million of the 4 million slaves in the U.S. at the time. The Proclamation was based on the president's constitutional authority as commander in chief of the armed forces;[3] it was not a law passed by Congress. The Proclamation also ordered that suitable persons among those freed could be enrolled into the paid service of United States' forces, and ordered the Union Army (and all segments of the Executive branch) to "recognize and maintain the freedom of" the ex-slaves. The Proclamation did not compensate the owners, did not itself outlaw slavery, and did not make the ex-slaves (called freedmen) citizens. It made the eradication of slavery an explicit war goal, in addition to the goal of reuniting the Union.[4]

Emancipation Proclamation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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Nice try - really - I mean that.

You're right that there is a difference between presidential proclamations and executive orders - I'll give you that. But the difference is not as great as you may think:

According to political science professor Phillip J. Cooper, a presidential proclamation "states a condition, declares a law and requires obedience, recognizes an event or triggers the implementation of a law (by recognizing that the circumstances in law have been realized)". Presidents define situations or conditions on situations that become legal or economic truth. These orders carry the same force of law as executive orders — the difference between the two is that executive orders are aimed at those inside government while proclamations are aimed at those outside government. (underlining mine)

Glen Contrarian said:

Nice try - really - I mean that.

You're right that there is a difference between presidential proclamations and executive orders - I'll give you that. But the difference is not as great as you may think:

According to political science professor Phillip J. Cooper, a presidential proclamation "states a condition, declares a law and requires obedience, recognizes an event or triggers the implementation of a law (by recognizing that the circumstances in law have been realized)". Presidents define situations or conditions on situations that become legal or economic truth. These orders carry the same force of law as executive orders — the difference between the two is that executive orders are aimed at those inside government while proclamations are aimed at those outside government. (underlining mine)<-----writer Phillip J. Cooper words

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de·clare
diˈkle(ə)r/
verb
3rd person present: declares

1.say something in a solemn and emphatic manner.
"he declared that he never revises his prose"
synonyms: proclaim, announce, state, reveal, air, voice, articulate, express, vent, set forth, publicize, broadcast; More
informalcome out with, shout from the rooftops
"she declared her political principles"
formally announce the beginning of (a state or condition).
"Spain declared war on Britain in 1796"
synonyms: assert, maintain, state, affirm, contend, argue, insist, hold, profess, claim, avow, swear; More
formalaver
"he declared that they were guilty"
pronounce or assert (a person or thing) to be something specified.
"the mansion was declared a fire hazard"
synonyms: show to be, reveal as, confirm as, prove to be, attest to someone's being More
"his speech declared him to be a gentleman"
openly align oneself for or against (a party or position) in a dispute.
"Mr. Roosevelt had declared for “a new deal.”"
announce oneself as a candidate for an election.
"he declared last April"
reveal one's intentions or identity.
archaic
express feelings of love to someone.
"she waited in vain for him to declare himself"
2.acknowledge possession of (taxable income or dutiable goods).

nothing in the constitutions grants the president the power to create alter or abolish law.

in the powers of the president it states 2 things...they are........the president "may", and the president "shall"......."may" is discretionary...."shall" is mandatory.

when it comes to the law and it being executed......it uses the word..."SHALL"

ernst barkmann said:

de·clare
diˈkle(ə)r/
verb
3rd person present: declares

1.
say something in a solemn and emphatic manner.
"he declared that he never revises his prose"
synonyms: proclaim, announce, state, reveal, air, voice, articulate, express, vent, set forth, publicize, broadcast; More
informalcome out with, shout from the rooftops
"she declared her political principles"
formally announce the beginning of (a state or condition).
"Spain declared war on Britain in 1796"
synonyms: assert, maintain, state, affirm, contend, argue, insist, hold, profess, claim, avow, swear; More
formalaver
"he declared that they were guilty"
pronounce or assert (a person or thing) to be something specified.
"the mansion was declared a fire hazard"
synonyms: show to be, reveal as, confirm as, prove to be, attest to someone's being More
"his speech declared him to be a gentleman"
openly align oneself for or against (a party or position) in a dispute.
"Mr. Roosevelt had declared for “a new deal.”"
announce oneself as a candidate for an election.
"he declared last April"
reveal one's intentions or identity.
archaic
express feelings of love to someone.
"she waited in vain for him to declare himself"
2.acknowledge possession of (taxable income or dutiable goods).

nothing in the constitutions grant the president the power to create alter or abolish law.

in the powers of the president it states 2 things...they are........the president "may", and the president "shall"......."may" is discretionary...."shall" is mandatory.

when it comes to the law and it being executed......it uses the word..."SHALL"

Click to expand...

Again, what the dictionary says does not always apply to how a word is actually used - including in politics. That's why I'll take the political science professor's word over yours.

Barack Obama January 20, 2009 Proclamation 8343 - National Day of Renewal and Reconciliation, 2009
Barack Obama February 2, 2009 Proclamation 8344 - American Heart Month, 2009
Barack Obama February 2, 2009 Proclamation 8345 - National African American History Month, 2009
Barack Obama February 27, 2009 Proclamation 8346 - American Red Cross Month, 2009
Barack Obama February 27, 2009 Proclamation 8347 - National Consumer Protection Week, 2009
Barack Obama February 27, 2009 Proclamation 8348 - Save Your Vision Week, 2009
Barack Obama February 27, 2009 Proclamation 8349 - Read Across America Day, 2009
Barack Obama March 2, 2009 Proclamation 8350 - Irish-American Heritage Month, 2009
Barack Obama March 3, 2009 Proclamation 8351 - Women's History Month, 2009
Barack Obama March 13, 2009 Proclamation 8352 - National Poison Prevention Week, 2009
Barack Obama March 24, 2009 Proclamation 8353 - Greek Independence Day: A National Day of Celebration of Greek and American Democracy, 2009
Barack Obama April 1, 2009 Proclamation 8354 - National Cancer Control Month, 2009
Barack Obama April 1, 2009 Proclamation 8355 - National Child Abuse Prevention Month, 2009
Barack Obama April 1, 2009 Proclamation 8356 - National Donate Life Month, 2009
Barack Obama April 3, 2009 Proclamation 8357 - Education and Sharing Day, U.S.A., 2009
Barack Obama April 8, 2009 Proclamation 8358 - National D.A.R.E. Day, 2009
Barack Obama April 8, 2009 Proclamation 8359 - National Sexual Assault Awareness Month, 2009
Barack Obama April 9, 2009 Proclamation 8360 - National Former Prisoner of War Recognition Day, 2009
Barack Obama April 14, 2009 Proclamation 8361 - Pan American Day and Pan American Week, 2009
Barack Obama April 17, 2009 Proclamation 8362 - National Park Week, 2009
Barack Obama April 21, 2009 Proclamation 8363 - National Volunteer Week, 2009
Barack Obama April 22, 2009 Proclamation 8364 - Earth Day, 2009
Barack Obama April 27, 2009 Proclamation 8365 - National Crime Victims' Rights Week, 2009
Barack Obama April 28, 2009 Proclamation 8366 - National Equal Pay Day, 2009
Barack Obama April 30, 2009 Proclamation 8367 - Law Day, U.S.A., 2009
Barack Obama May 1, 2009 Proclamation 8368 - Loyalty Day, 2009
Barack Obama May 1, 2009 Proclamation 8369 - Asian American and Pacific Islander Heritage Month, 2009
Barack Obama May 1, 2009 Proclamation 8370 - National Physical Fitness and Sports Month, 2009
Barack Obama May 4, 2009 Proclamation 8371 - Older Americans Month, 2009
Barack Obama May 4, 2009 Proclamation 8372 - National Charter Schools Week, 2009
Barack Obama May 6, 2009 Proclamation 8373 - World Trade Week, 2009
Barack Obama May 7, 2009 Proclamation 8374 - National Day of Prayer, 2009
Barack Obama May 8, 2009 Proclamation 8375 - Military Spouse Day, 2009
Barack Obama May 8, 2009 Proclamation 8376 - Mother's Day, 2009
Barack Obama May 11, 2009 Proclamation 8377 - National Defense Transportation Day and National Transportation Week, 2009
Barack Obama May 11, 2009 Proclamation 8378 - Peace Officers Memorial Day and Police Week, 2009
Barack Obama May 12, 2009 Proclamation 8379 - Jewish American Heritage Month, 2009
Barack Obama May 14, 2009 Proclamation 8380 - Armed Forces Day, 2009
Barack Obama May 15, 2009 Proclamation 8381 - National Safe Boating Week, 2009
Barack Obama May 15, 2009 Proclamation 8382 - Small Business Week, 2009
Barack Obama May 20, 2009 Proclamation 8383 - Emergency Medical Services Week, 2009
Barack Obama May 20, 2009 Proclamation 8384 - National Maritime Day, 2009
Barack Obama May 22, 2009 Proclamation 8385 - Prayer for Peace, Memorial Day, 2009
Barack Obama May 26, 2009 Proclamation 8386 - National Hurricane Preparedness Week, 2009
Barack Obama June 1, 2009 Proclamation 8387 - Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender Pride Month, 2009
Barack Obama June 1, 2009 Proclamation 8388 - Great Outdoors Month, 2009
Barack Obama June 2, 2009 Proclamation 8389 - African-American Music Appreciation Month, 2009
Barack Obama June 2, 2009 Proclamation 8390 - National Caribbean-American Heritage Month, 2009
Barack Obama June 11, 2009 Proclamation 8391 - Flag Day and National Flag Week, 2009
Barack Obama June 12, 2009 Proclamation 8392 - National Oceans Month, 2009
Barack Obama June 18, 2009 Proclamation 8393 - Father's Day, 2009
Barack Obama June 29, 2009 Proclamation 8394 - To Modify Duty-Free Treatment Under the Generalized System of Preferences, and for Other Purposes
Barack Obama July 6, 2009 Proclamation 8395 - National Summer Learning Day, 2009
Barack Obama July 17, 2009 Proclamation 8396 - Captive Nations Week, 2009
Barack Obama July 23, 2009 Proclamation 8397 - 35th Anniversary of the Legal Services Corporation, 2009
Barack Obama July 24, 2009 Proclamation 8398 - Anniversary of the Americans With Disabilities Act, 2009
Barack Obama July 24, 2009 Proclamation 8399 - National Korean War Veterans Armistice Day, 2009
Barack Obama August 20, 2009 Proclamation 8400 - Minority Enterprise Development Week, 2009
Barack Obama August 21, 2009 Proclamation 8401 - Fiftieth Anniversary of Hawaii Statehood
Barack Obama August 25, 2009 Proclamation 8402 - Women's Equality Day, 2009
Barack Obama August 26, 2009 Proclamation 8403 - Death of Senator Edward M. Kennedy
Barack Obama August 30, 2009 Proclamation 8404 - National Historically Black Colleges and Universities Week, 2009
Barack Obama August 31, 2009 Proclamation 8405 - To Adjust the Rules of Origin Under the North American Free Trade Agreement and For Other Purposes
Barack Obama August 31, 2009 Proclamation 8406 - National Alcohol and Drug Addiction Recovery Month, 2009
Barack Obama August 31, 2009 Proclamation 8407 - National Ovarian Cancer Awareness Month, 2009
Barack Obama August 31, 2009 Proclamation 8408 - National Prostate Cancer Awareness Month, 2009
Barack Obama September 3, 2009 Proclamation 8409 - National Wilderness Month, 2009
Barack Obama September 3, 2009 Proclamation 8410 - National Days of Prayer and Remembrance, 2009
Barack Obama September 4, 2009 Proclamation 8411 - Labor Day, 2009
Barack Obama September 4, 2009 Proclamation 8412 - National Preparedness Month, 2009
Barack Obama September 10, 2009 Proclamation 8413 - Patriot Day and National Day of Service and Remembrance, 2009
Barack Obama September 11, 2009 Proclamation 8414 - To Address Market Disruption From Imports of Certain Passenger Vehicle and Light Truck Tires From the People's Republic of China
Barack Obama September 14, 2009 Proclamation 8415 - National Employer Support of the Guard and Reserve Week, 2009
Barack Obama September 14, 2009 Proclamation 8416 - Fifteenth Anniversary of the Violence Against Women Act
Barack Obama September 15, 2009 Proclamation 8417 - National Hispanic Heritage Month, 2009
Barack Obama September 16, 2009 Proclamation 8418 - Constitution Day and Citizenship Day, Constitution Week, 2009
Barack Obama September 17, 2009 Proclamation 8419 - National POW/MIA Recognition Day, 2009
Barack Obama September 21, 2009 Proclamation 8420 - National Farm Safety and Health Week, 2009
Barack Obama September 22, 2009 Proclamation 8421 - National Hunting and Fishing Day, 2009
Barack Obama September 25, 2009 Proclamation 8422 - Gold Star Mother's and Families' Day, 2009
Barack Obama September 25, 2009 Proclamation 8423 - National Public Lands Management Recognition Day, 2009
Barack Obama September 28, 2009 Proclamation 8424 - Family Day, 2009
Barack Obama September 30, 2009 Proclamation 8425 - National Breast Cancer Awareness Month, 2009
Barack Obama September 30, 2009 Proclamation 8426 - National Disability Employment Awareness Month, 2009

Barack Obama October 1, 2009 Proclamation 8427 - National Cybersecruity Awareness Month, 2009
Barack Obama October 1, 2009 Proclamation 8428 - National Domestic Violence Awareness Month, 2009
Barack Obama October 1, 2009 Proclamation 8429 - National Information Literacy Awareness Month, 2009
Barack Obama October 2, 2009 Proclamation 8430 - National Arts and Humanities Month, 2009
Barack Obama October 2, 2009 Proclamation 8431 - National Energy Awareness Month, 2009
Barack Obama October 2, 2009 Proclamation 8432 - Fire Prevention Week, 2009
Barack Obama October 2, 2009 Proclamation 8433 - Child Health Day, 2009
Barack Obama October 6, 2009 Proclamation 8434 - German-American Day, 2009
Barack Obama October 7, 2009 Proclamation 8435 - Leif Erikson Day, 2009
Barack Obama October 9, 2009 Proclamation 8436 - National School Lunch Week, 2009
Barack Obama October 9, 2009 Proclamation 8437 - Columbus Day, 2009
Barack Obama October 9, 2009 Proclamation 8438 - General Pulaski Memorial Day, 2009
Barack Obama October 15, 2009 Proclamation 8439 - White Cane Safety Day, 2009
Barack Obama October 19, 2009 Proclamation 8440 - National Character Counts Week, 2009
Barack Obama October 19, 2009 Proclamation 8441 - United Nations Day, 2009
Barack Obama October 23, 2009 Proclamation 8442 - National Forest Products Week, 2009
Barack Obama October 23, 2009 Proclamation 8443 - Declaration of a National Emergency With Respect to the 2009 H1N1 Influenza Pandemic
Barack Obama October 30, 2009 Proclamation 8444 - Military Family Month, 2009
Barack Obama October 30, 2009 Proclamation 8445 - National Adoption Month, 2009
Barack Obama October 30, 2009 Proclamation 8446 - National Alzheimer's Disease Awareness Month, 2009
Barack Obama October 30, 2009 Proclamation 8447 - National Diabetes Month, 2009
Barack Obama October 30, 2009 Proclamation 8448 - National Family Caregivers Month, 2009
Barack Obama October 30, 2009 Proclamation 8449 - National Native American Heritage Month, 2009
Barack Obama October 30, 2009 Proclamation 8450 - Veterans Day, 2009
Barack Obama November 6, 2009 Proclamation 8451 - Honoring the Victims of the Tragedy at Fort Hood, Texas
Barack Obama November 9, 2009 Proclamation 8452 - World Freedom Day, 2009
Barack Obama November 13, 2009 Proclamation 8453 - America Recycles Day, 2009
Barack Obama November 19, 2009 Proclamation 8454 - National Entrepreneurship Week, 2009
Barack Obama November 20, 2009 Proclamation 8455 - National Farm-City Week, 2009
Barack Obama November 20, 2009 Proclamation 8456 - National Family Week, 2009
Barack Obama November 20, 2009 Proclamation 8457 - National Child's Day, 2009
Barack Obama November 20, 2009 Proclamation 8458 - Thanksgiving Day, 2009
Barack Obama November 25, 2009 Proclamation 8459 - World AIDS Day, 2009
Barack Obama December 2, 2009 Proclamation 8460 - Critical Infrastructure Protection Month, 2009
Barack Obama December 2, 2009 Proclamation 8461 - National Impaired Driving Prevention Month, 2009
Barack Obama December 2, 2009 Proclamation 8462 - International Day of Persons With Disabilities, 2009
Barack Obama December 4, 2009 Proclamation 8463 - National Pearl Harbor Remembrance Day, 2009
Barack Obama December 9, 2009 Proclamation 8464 - Human Rights Day, Bill of Rights Day, and Human Rights Week, 2009
Barack Obama December 15, 2009 Proclamation 8465 - 65th Anniversary of the Battle of the Bulge, 2009
Barack Obama December 16, 2009 Proclamation 8466 - Wright Brothers Day, 2009
Barack Obama December 23, 2009 Proclamation 8467 - To Modify Duty-Free Treatment Under the Generalized System of Preferences, and for Other Purposes
Barack Obama December 23, 2009 Proclamation 8468 - To Take Certain Actions Under the African Growth and Opportunity Act
Barack Obama December 31, 2009 Proclamation 8469 - 40th Anniversary of the National Environmental Policy Act, 2010

Glen Contrarian said:

Again, what the dictionary says does not always apply to how a word is actually used - including in politics. That's why I'll take the political science professor's word over yours.

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mine?... i gave you what the word means from the dictionary....its not mine.

u.s. constitution

Article. II.

Section. 1.

The executive Power shall be vested in a President of the United States of America. He shall hold his Office during the Term of four Years, and, together with the Vice President, chosen for the same Term, be elected, as follows

article 2

Section. 3.

He shall from time to time give to the Congress Information of the State of the Union, and recommend to their Consideration such Measures as he shall judge necessary and expedient; he may, on extraordinary Occasions, convene both Houses, or either of them, and in Case of Disagreement between them, with Respect to the Time of Adjournment, he may adjourn them to such Time as he shall think proper; he shall receive Ambassadors and other public Ministers; he "
"shall" take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed, and shall Commission all the Officers of the United States.


Article. I.

Section. 1.

All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives.


article 1 section 8--power of congress

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

ernst barkmann said:

mine?... i gave you what the word means from the dictionary....its not mine.

u.s. constitution

Article. II.

Section. 1.

The executive Power shall be vested in a President of the United States of America. He shall hold his Office during the Term of four Years, and, together with the Vice President, chosen for the same Term, be elected, as follows

article 2

Section. 3.

He shall from time to time give to the Congress Information of the State of the Union, and recommend to their Consideration such Measures as he shall judge necessary and expedient; he may, on extraordinary Occasions, convene both Houses, or either of them, and in Case of Disagreement between them, with Respect to the Time of Adjournment, he may adjourn them to such Time as he shall think proper; he shall receive Ambassadors and other public Ministers; he "
"shall" take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed, and shall Commission all the Officers of the United States.


Article. I.

Section. 1.

All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives.


article 1 section 8--power of congress

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

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Sooo...if, say, we went to war with Syria, and President Obama decided that you yourself was a threat to the nation and decided to issue an executive order to lock you up and that you should not have access to a legal hearing to determine whether it was legal to lock you up, would that be unconstitutional? Just wondering....

Glen Contrarian said:

Sooo...if, say, we went to war with Syria, and President Obama decided that you yourself was a threat to the nation and decided to issue an executive order to lock you up and that you should not have access to a legal hearing to determine whether it was legal to lock you up, would that be unconstitutional? Just wondering....

Click to expand...

executive order to lock me up, and deny me due process of law would ........be unconstitutional.

Glen Contrarian said:

In other words, a dictionary definition doesn't always equate to how a word is used in the real world.

Click to expand...

true, and a dictionary definition often has no relevance to the real world or more importantly, the law

ernst barkmann said:

executive order to lock me up, and deny me due process of law would ........be unconstitutional.

Click to expand...

I asked you that because that's what Abraham Lincoln did...and the Congress backed him up later.

TurtleDude said:

true, and a dictionary definition often has no relevance to the real world or more importantly, the law

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Yes, bills today often take great pains to define terms. Heavens knows in my three years working for the Michigan legislature I certainly wrote enough of them.

Unless the law clearly defines a word or term - then it is indeed the dictionary definition that is the standard. for example, several here claim that CIVILIAN only includes active military members. Almost any dictionary you want to look at from Funk & Wagnalls to Merriam-Webster clearly states it is military and the police.

But some - mostly on the far right of gun issues - want to pretend that police are civilians because they have an agenda to claim that they now get to use and carry policy weapons which they are apparently now prevented from having. Its a totally dishonest attempt to change the meaning of a commonly accepted word by authority after authority after authority.

And what makes this even worse is that the far right who want to do this CAN POINT TO NO DEFINITION IN LAW WHICH SAYS POLICE IN THE USA DOING THEIR JOB ARE CIVILIANS.

So ernst barkmann, have you always been against executive orders and proclamations or only suddenly against them since there is a black President in the White House who doesn't share your ideological views? It really does seem as if right-wingers are suddenly up in arms with what has been standard practice with other presidents.

haymarket said:

Yes, bills today often take great pains to define terms. Heavens knows in my three years working for the Michigan legislature I certainly wrote enough of them.

Unless the law clearly defines a word or term - then it is indeed the dictionary definition that is the standard. for example, several here claim that CIVILIAN only includes active military members. Almost any dictionary you want to look at from Funk & Wagnalls to Merriam-Webster clearly states it is military and the police.

But some - mostly on the far right of gun issues - want to pretend that police are civilians because they have an agenda to claim that they now get to use and carry policy weapons which they are apparently now prevented from having. Its a totally dishonest attempt to change the meaning of a commonly accepted word by authority after authority after authority.

And what makes this even worse is that the far right who want to do this CAN POINT TO NO DEFINITION IN LAW WHICH SAYS POLICE IN THE USA DOING THEIR JOB ARE CIVILIANS.

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asked and answered. You cannot find a single law that supports the hysterical claim that civilian law enforcement officers are not civilians

MTAtech said:

So ernst barkmann, have you always been against executive orders and proclamations or only suddenly against them since there is a black President in the White House who doesn't share your ideological views? It really does seem as if right-wingers are suddenly up in arms with what has been standard practice with other presidents.

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You liberals just cannot stop playing the race card. Tell me what does "black' have to do with anything? Or are you just baiting? You put it as though there are "black" presidents and there are "white" presidents, are you against a "white" president who doesn't share your ideological views". And would you be against a "black" president that doesn't share your ideological views? You know it's all about color for you liberals.

Glen Contrarian said:

I asked you that because that's what Abraham Lincoln did...and the Congress backed him up later.

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Abraham Lincoln stated his proclamation against the seceding southern states, some states which did not leave the union but had slavery the proclamation did not address . the president can make proclamations, suggest things to congress....but does not mean a law is made, or that congress even has to act, the congress does not work for the president, they do not have to gave him any legislation, just because he want its.



your link

The
very first presidential executive order was a proclamation signed by George Washington on April 22, 1793, giving instruction to federal officers to prosecute any citizens interfering with the war between England and France. In this case, Washington made the decree by executive order because Congress was out of session

the justice department is in the executive branch, the president has authority there........he cannot step into the other branches of office and create ,alter of abolish law, or do any judicial review of any law.

Lincoln by the way violated constitutional law, while he was president.

ernst barkmann said:

Abraham Lincoln stated his proclamation against the seceding southern states, some states which did not leave the union but had slavery the proclamation did not address . the president can make proclamations, suggest things to congress....but does not mean a law is made, or that congress even has to act, the congress does not work for the president, they do not have to gave him any legislation, just because he want its.



your link

The
very first presidential executive order was a proclamation signed by George Washington on April 22, 1793, giving instruction to federal officers to prosecute any citizens interfering with the war between England and France. In this case, Washington made the decree by executive order because Congress was out of session

the justice department is in the executive branch, the president has authority there........he cannot step into the other branches of office and create ,alter of abolish law, or do any judicial review of any law.

Lincoln by the way violated constitutional law, while he was president.

Click to expand...

And so you must agree that what you personally want to see hasn't been the case for nearly two hundred years.

Thing is, ernst, you can make your opinion public - you can cast your votes and you can get into politics and try to make a change. But until that change is made, you have to deal with things the way they are, and obey the laws as they presently stand.

Glen Contrarian said:

And so you must agree that what you personally want to see hasn't been the case for nearly two hundred years.

Thing is, ernst, you can make your opinion public - you can cast your votes and you can get into politics and try to make a change. But until that change is made, you have to deal with things the way they are, and obey the laws as they presently stand.

Click to expand...

excuse......... but our discussion has been about the power of the president...he cannot create, alter or abolish law.....because the constitution does not give him that power, and he must faithfully execute the law, the constitution states that also.......so your idea of reality, is a constitutional violation.

there is no law I need to obey, as you put it.

the power to create law, and then also execute it....... is the most dangerous of all situations

TurtleDude said:

asked and answered. You cannot find a single law that supports the hysterical claim that civilian law enforcement officers are not civilians

Click to expand...

No it was not. But prove me a liar by showing the verifiable evidence of such a US law governing police officers performing their duties in the USA. Lets see it as you have NEVER presented it.

But go ahead and prove me a liar simply by linking to the evidence of a law which says that police officers in the USA performing their jobs are civilians. Lets see it.

Now you want me to prove they are NOT civilians? Turtle - you are asking me to prove a negative. We do NOT pass laws saying what things are NOT. I helped write laws for three years and can tell you that with 100% certainty.

I gave you ample evidence that authoritative dictionaries on the English language in the USA say they are NOT civilians. I gave you gun rights magazine that say they are not civilians showing that even gun lobby supporters do not agree with the extremist cause celebre to help them prepare for the Great Right Wing Day of Armageddon in style.

I also cannot prove that there are NOT three inch monkeys made of blue flame who play professional basketball underneath the surface of Uranus. You want to stake out that probability as fact - go for it.

It is incumbent upon YOU to advance your argument that cops are civilians when it goes completely opposite from every standard dictionary I have ever seen and the accepted meaning of the word in American English.

ernst barkmann said:

excuse......... but our discussion has been about the power of the president...he cannot create, alter or abolish law.....because the constitution does not give him that power, and he must faithfully execute the law, the constitution states that also.......so your idea of reality, is a constitutional violation.

there is no law I need to obey, as you put it.

the power to create law, and then also execute it....... is the most dangerous of all situations

Click to expand...

If you think Obama's actions are worrisome, look at what Bush 43 did in his Executive Order #51 - it basically allowed him to take over the government in times of emergency. All he had to do was to declare a national emergency...and he could then ignore the judiciary and the legislative.

But don't get me wrong - that wasn't the most dictatorial thing our presidents have done. The worst I know of was by Woodrow Wilson, who jailed people for even verbally speaking out against our involvement in WWI...and while the H1N1 influenza was killing nearly 1M Americans (when our population was only about 100M), he never once publicly spoke on the issue since he thought it would "hurt war morale".

Glen Contrarian said:

If you think Obama's actions are worrisome, look at what Bush 43 did in his Executive Order #51 - it basically allowed him to take over the government in times of emergency. All he had to do was to declare a national emergency...and he could then ignore the judiciary and the legislative.

But don't get me wrong - that wasn't the most dictatorial thing our presidents have done. The worst I know of was by Woodrow Wilson, who jailed people for even verbally speaking out against our involvement in WWI...and while the H1N1 influenza was killing nearly 1M Americans (when our population was only about 100M), he never once publicly spoke on the issue since he thought it would "hurt war morale".

Click to expand...

presidents have abused the original use of executive order....no matter what party they are from.

presidents want to enact something...congress will not give them what they want [ and they don't have to], so presidents create executive orders to go around the law.

ernst barkmann said:

presidents have abused the original use of executive order....no matter what party they are from.

presidents want to enact something...congress will not give them what they want [ and they don't have to], so presidents create executive orders to go around the law.

Click to expand...

And there are times - as with the present crisis among our southern border - when Congress refuses to do what is necessary (much less what is morally right), and so forces the president to take what action lay within his ability (if not within the stated limits of his authority) to enact.

ernst barkmann said:

presidents have abused the original use of executive order....no matter what party they are from.

presidents want to enact something...congress will not give them what they want [ and they don't have to], so presidents create executive orders to go around the law.

Click to expand...

By the way - as much as you and I disagree on most issues, you're okay...because you (unlike so many others) approach these discussions with the severity and the scholarship they demand. Kudos to you. :good_job:

haymarket said:

No it was not. But prove me a liar by showing the verifiable evidence of such a US law governing police officers performing their duties in the USA. Lets see it as you have NEVER presented it.

But go ahead and prove me a liar simply by linking to the evidence of a law which says that police officers in the USA performing their jobs are civilians. Lets see it.

Now you want me to prove they are NOT civilians? Turtle - you are asking me to prove a negative. We do NOT pass laws saying what things are NOT. I helped write laws for three years and can tell you that with 100% certainty.

I gave you ample evidence that authoritative dictionaries on the English language in the USA say they are NOT civilians. I gave you gun rights magazine that say they are not civilians showing that even gun lobby supporters do not agree with the extremist cause celebre to help them prepare for the Great Right Wing Day of Armageddon in style.

I also cannot prove that there are NOT three inch monkeys made of blue flame who play professional basketball underneath the surface of Uranus. You want to stake out that probability as fact - go for it.

It is incumbent upon YOU to advance your argument that cops are civilians when it goes completely opposite from every standard dictionary I have ever seen and the accepted meaning of the word in American English.

Click to expand...

I have no clue what this blathering is trying to accomplish

Cops are civilians-period-unless they are MILITARY police

what laws did you write that made CIVILIAN LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS MEMBERS of the military

Those dictionaries are NOT RELEVANT WHEN IT COMES TO OUR LAWS

your blather about extremists is funny-real extremists are those who pretend that cops are not civilians or that "shall not be infringed" was INTENDED to allow "Infringements"



Your claim that CIVILIAN LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS are NOT CIVILIANS goes against every law in the USA that deals with the subject and the testimony of every former CIVILIAN LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER ON THIS BOARD

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070719120932AA4vHHE

As a member of the military, we have been taught that police officers are civil authorities. This would imply that they are civilians in an position of authority.

A police officer is a sworn Civilian