Texas: The miracle that isn't

I started another thread asking for defense of conservative economic principles:
http://www.debatepolitics.com/gover...lexing-durability-conservative-economics.html

Not only did I not get it, I also got this recurring them of Texas and how it is "proof" that conservative economics work. The argument was flawed to begin with for the majority of my points (state economics are dramatically different than federal economics). That of course did not stop Texas from being used as the conservative poster child.

Here's what I have learned about Texas:

- Texas advertises in other states to get businesses to move. This is not job creation, it simply is moving jobs around at the detriment of other states. This is simply a race to the bottom.

- Texas spent 19 Billion dollars last year in tax incentives for businness. How did it pay for that? Read on.

- Texas oil production has jumped form 15 percent to 34.5 percent of U.S. output (increasing 126% between 2010 and 2013) and is ranked 9th in the world

- Texas accounts for 27 percent of U.S natural gas production, which is more than the production of any nation except russia.

- Between 1998 and 2011, the percent of texas GPD produced directly by oil more than doubled. This does not include that of related industries like refining and petrochemicals

- The share of the Texas economy produced by information and communication technology SHRANK by 27% since 1998.

-Only some businesses get sweetheart deals. According to a 2012 study, the average state and local business tax rate relative to gross state product was 4.8%. Texas was 5.2 and california was 4.5%.

- Only one member attempted to attack my conservative economics post. He chose inflation as evidence. Despite national data to the contrary, his personal experience drove him to believe it anyway - he was from Texas

Fun state rankings:
- SAT tests: 47th
- High school graduation rate: 44th
- Percentage of population graduated from high school: 50th
- Percentage of uninsured children: 2nd
- Percentage of children living in poverty: 7th
- Percentage of population that's uninsured: 1st
- Percent of non-elderly that's uninsured: 1st
- Percent living below federal poverty level: 8th
- Percent of population with food insecurity: 3rd
- percent of adults who are overweight or obese: 8th
- birth rate: 3rd
- teenage birth rate: 4th
- percent of non-elderly women with heath insurance: 51st
- consumers with subprime credit: 3rd
- foreclosure rates 44th
- average credit card debt: 46th
- amount of carbon dioxide emissions: 1st
- amount of toxic releases into water: 4th
- amount of recognized cancer-causing carcinogens released into the air: 4th
- amount of hazardous waste generated: 1st
- amount of recognized cancer-causing carcinogens released into water: 5th
- total energy consumption per capita: 6th
- home ownership rate: 42nd
- personal backruptcy filings rate per capita: 46th
- rate of incarceration: 4th
- property crime rate: 2nd
- larceny and theft rate: 3rd
- percentage of voting-age population that votes: 51st
- minimum wage jobs per capita: 49th*

Texas On The Brink | Texas Legislative Study Group

Oops: The Texas Miracle That Isn’t by Phillip Longman | The Washington Monthly

So I'm going to guess that you don't like Texas.

LOLOL !!

Texas may have advertised, but that doesn't mean it FORCED those Companies to move here.

They moved here because they obviously crunched the numbers and saw the relocation as a advantage.

Conservative economic principles encourage investment and thats exactly what those Companies did.

Nor did it force the millions of residents who left States like California to relocate to Texas.

You think its population increase ? Nope.

Texas is creating 1 NEW Job for every 3 residents.

The US average is1 new job for every 7 and California is 1 new job for every 11 Residents.

So much for your "moving jobs around" assertion.

Texas spending 19 Billion dollars is a dishonest characterization since it " SPENT NOTHING".

Oh and New York is offering 10 years of no taxes if Companies move there.

Toyota received a Tax incentive of 40 Million dollars so they could move here and spend 300 Million building their new complex and employ thousands of people.

See how that works ? Its called a INVESTMENT.

The job creation just doesn't stop where Toyota stops hiring. Can you understand that ?

We "spent" 19 Billion dollars but somehow we have a growing surplus in excess of 10 Billion dollars.

More tax payers, not tax increases equals more revenues.

As of this minute the oil and gas represents 10 percent of our GDP.

Cali has Silicon Valley which ALSO represents about 10 percent of their GDP.

Our economy is diverse with Substantial growth seen across 11 different sectors in the last 2 years.

All your other attempts to demonize the State are irrelevant.
Especially when you consider states like California.

Who has the highest rate of poverty in the Nation and who also has the highest local and state debt in the Nation.

nota bene said:

So I'm going to guess that you don't like Texas.

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I uaed Texas as a example of how effective Conservative economic principles are and he took exception to it.

Posted this drek thats supposed to turn Texas's economic boom into to collapse overnight I guess.

But people here in Texas are ignoring this nonsense.

Heck, well I aint visitin Tyiexus then!

nota bene said:

So I'm going to guess that you don't like Texas.

Click to expand...

I actually never thought about it and knew very little about it until it kept coming up as this wonderful miracle. Like everything it just turned out that there's two sides to a story.

Here's a blog post that devastatingly refutes all the lw talking points.
Devastating because the writer is not a Rick Perry supporter.

Rick Perry And Texas Job Numbers | Political Math

That is the wonderful thing about having local laws - if you don't like them then you can simply avoid living in that location. I am quite happy living in Texas and, I will assume, that you are quite happy not to.

DDD said:

Heck, well I aint visitin Tyiexus then!

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Unedumacated hethens!! :lol:

Others can duplicate Texas by allowing shale oil drilling where the oil is at. Alaska, the giant mountain ranges in the middle of the country, and the deep off our coasts. Let them drill where there's oil and there will be prosperity for all of us.

Slyhunter said:

Others can duplicate Texas by allowing shale oil drilling where the oil is at. Alaska, the giant mountain ranges in the middle of the country, and the deep off our coasts. Let them drill where there's oil and there will be prosperity for all of us.

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Oil and Gas is only 10 percent of Texas's GDP.

Try again.

American said:

Unedumacated hethens!! :lol:

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Rutn, tootn, shootn, amcademics tham'all!

Sounds like somebody is a little envious. Regional bigotry is so ugly. Remember when we used to be the UNITED States instead of 'why I hate _____?'

(Texas, California, The South, etc.... fill in the blank)

Well, there has probably been regional rivalry since our beginning. I'm sure, for example, that some of the other 12 colonies thought they were better than Maryland.

Fenton said:

LOLOL !!

Texas may have advertised, but that doesn't mean it FORCED those Companies to move here.

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That's not the point - the point is that they are taking existing jobs, not creating jobs thru innovation.

They moved here because they obviously crunched the numbers and saw the relocation as a advantage.

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Clearly you didn't read my post or the articles. Texas ranks behind even california in turns of business taxes vs gross product. Only mega corporations are getting 19 billion in sweetheart deals. In any case you're admitting relocation over creation.

Nor did it force the millions of residents who left States like California to relocate to Texas.

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You need to read past the rhetoric on this one - according to the article 441 native born americans moved to texas from other states between 2010 and 2011. Sure that would be a lot....if another 358k didn't flee Texas. And since you're constantly bashing california - in 2012 62k moved from California...but 43K moved TO California.

You think its population increase ? Nope.

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I never brought this up. Did you read anything that I said?

Texas is creating 1 NEW Job for every 3 residents.
The US average is1 new job for every 7 and California is 1 new job for every 11 Residents.
So much for your "moving jobs around" assertion.

Click to expand...

This in no way disproves that you're not taking jobs from other states nor does it account on increased employment from the oil and gas industries.

Texas spending 19 Billion dollars is a dishonest characterization since it " SPENT NOTHING".

Click to expand...

That's not the point - the point is the taxes are there, counter to the idea that taxes is business friendly by law. Tax breaks are doled out to certain companies, not everybody.

Oh and New York is offering 10 years of no taxes if Companies move there.

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I didn't even want to talk about Texas but you had to keep cramming it in my other thread. I certainly don't want to talk about new york.

Toyota received a Tax incentive of 40 Million dollars so they could move here and spend 300 Million building their new complex and employ thousands of people.

See how that works ? Its called a INVESTMENT.

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No, I don't see - you continue to prove job canibilization, not creation.

The job creation just doesn't stop where Toyota stops hiring. Can you understand that ?

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You mean the doctors, lawyers, grocery store clerks, garbage men that need to come with those employees. Sure, I can see that - as long as you can see it the same way with the growth of the oil industry there.

We "spent" 19 Billion dollars but somehow we have a growing surplus in excess of 10 Billion dollars.

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I wish I didn't have to guess at what you're talking about but since you don't cite anything I'll have to guess. According to the comptroller, it will be 8 billion in 2015. In anycase, that's great. Maybe you should spend some of that improving your standing on one of the dozens of rankings I posted:
Comptroller: Texas Budget Surplus Bigger Than Expected | The Texas Tribune

More tax payers, not tax increases equals more revenues.

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There's this crazy concept of "per capita".

As of this minute the oil and gas represents 10 percent of our GDP.

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It was 11.4 in 2008 for extraction ALONE. This does not count refining, petrochemicals, and the boost to other industries. In any case 10% is a huge part of an economy.

Cali has Silicon Valley which ALSO represents about 10 percent of their GDP.

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Are we really comparing an industry made up almost entirely of highly educated, highly paid individuals, with the value of sucking a finite resource out of the ground?

Our economy is diverse with Substantial growth seen across 11 different sectors in the last 2 years.

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Sweet. What sectors? How much?

All your other attempts to demonize the State are irrelevant.
Especially when you consider states like California.

Click to expand...

I never, ever wanted to know anything about Texas - this is your poster child, not mine. I just wanted the tangent to stop polluting my other thread.

Who has the highest rate of poverty in the Nation and who also has the highest local and state debt in the Nation.

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I don't know and I dont care unless it is Texas since that is what this thread is about. Anything else is off topic.

KLATTU said:

Here's a blog post that devastatingly refutes all the lw talking points.
Devastating because the writer is not a Rick Perry supporter.

Rick Perry And Texas Job Numbers | Political Math

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Um no. The article has "Jobs" in the title and I think I made only a couple points about jobs. In any case, from your article:

Increases in jobs in the energy sector (or closely related to it) account for about 25% of the job increases in the last year. Since the energy sector only makes up 3% of all employment, there is some truth to this claim.

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He then goes on to explain that even without energy, jobs are still growing the fastest. But that doesn't cover my points at all - that the tax breaks they're giving to incentivize moves from other states are available largely due to the oil industry. Production alone delivers almost 5 billion in taxes:
Revenue by Source - Texas Transparency

Smartmouthwoman said:

Sounds like somebody is a little envious. Regional bigotry is so ugly. Remember when we used to be the UNITED States instead of 'why I hate _____?'

(Texas, California, The South, etc.... fill in the blank)

Click to expand...

At no time have I said anything bad about the region or it's people. The only issue I have at this time is using it's economics as a model for the federal level when there seem to be so may other areas where performance is not on par.

To be clear, none of this is about who "likes" or "dislikes" Texas. The question is whether or not Texas' economy is doing as well as is claimed, and whether its policy choices are truly beneficial for its population.

It seems clear that Texas' policies have a negative impact on eduction, poverty levels and environmental policies; and that much of its economic success is in oil and gas production (which has been the case for years). Claims that people are "voting with their feet" and moving to Texas are belied by the net immigration, which was a relatively paltry 83,000 in 2010; and a big chunk of the immigration is actually foreigners, mostly from Mexico.

Tax rates for small- and medium-businesses are comparable to California, and slightly higher than some other states like New Jersey or Pennsylvania; Texas has lower rates of entrepreneurship than most other states; per capita income is falling.

We might say that "relaxed drilling policies have encouraged growth in oil and gas" -- but we can also point out how improved technology is the real driver of change. Oil and natural gas fields that were previously unproductive can now be accessed, due to better drilling and fracking techniques. I.e. even if Texas had more energy regulations, they'd still have a resource boom.

When you get past the rhetoric, things don't look quite as rosy as some want us to believe.

pdog said:

That's not the point - the point is that they are taking existing jobs, not creating jobs thru innovation.

.

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Even if true (dubious) so what?

pdog said:

That's not the point - the point is that they are taking existing jobs, not creating jobs thru innovation.


Clearly you didn't read my post or the articles. Texas ranks behind even california in turns of business taxes vs gross product. Only mega corporations are getting 19 billion in sweetheart deals. In any case you're admitting relocation over creation.


You need to read past the rhetoric on this one - according to the article 441 native born americans moved to texas from other states between 2010 and 2011. Sure that would be a lot....if another 358k didn't flee Texas. And since you're constantly bashing california - in 2012 62k moved from California...but 43K moved TO California.


I never brought this up. Did you read anything that I said?


This in no way disproves that you're not taking jobs from other states nor does it account on increased employment from the oil and gas industries.

That's not the point - the point is the taxes are there, counter to the idea that taxes is business friendly by law. Tax breaks are doled out to certain companies, not everybody.


I didn't even want to talk about Texas but you had to keep cramming it in my other thread. I certainly don't want to talk about new york.


No, I don't see - you continue to prove job canibilization, not creation.

You mean the doctors, lawyers, grocery store clerks, garbage men that need to come with those employees. Sure, I can see that - as long as you can see it the same way with the growth of the oil industry there.



I wish I didn't have to guess at what you're talking about but since you don't cite anything I'll have to guess. According to the comptroller, it will be 8 billion in 2015. In anycase, that's great. Maybe you should spend some of that improving your standing on one of the dozens of rankings I posted:
Comptroller: Texas Budget Surplus Bigger Than Expected | The Texas Tribune


There's this crazy concept of "per capita".


It was 11.4 in 2008 for extraction ALONE. This does not count refining, petrochemicals, and the boost to other industries. In any case 10% is a huge part of an economy.


Are we really comparing an industry made up almost entirely of highly educated, highly paid individuals, with the value of sucking a finite resource out of the ground?


Sweet. What sectors? How much?


I never, ever wanted to know anything about Texas - this is your poster child, not mine. I just wanted the tangent to stop polluting my other thread.

I don't know and I dont care unless it is Texas since that is what this thread is about. Anything else is off topic.

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Nonsense.

California is the Nations 4rth largest Oil producer and 10 percent of GDP is 10 percent lf GDP whether it applies to Oil and Gas or technology

They suck up their fair share of natural resources their.

Maybe you should look into the massive subsidies. Companies like Google and Microsoft recieve.

It would make any Liberal blush.

You havn't proven your baseless claim that Texas is stealing jobs and not adding new jobs, even though there's data to contradict that claim.

Tax breaks create new opportunities, new jobs, increases per capita GDP.

Texas proves that as its per capita GDP surpassed California's back in 2010.

So no Companies are not the only ones who benefit.

Toyota's relocation DOES create new jobs, and I'm not just talking about Texans going to work for Toyota.

Everything from new construction to added jobs in retail due to the fact 3000 more people have a solid steady pay check coming.

Employed Americans spend their money on a variety of things.

Why is that so difficult to understand ?

The only one calling whats happening in Texas a "miracle" are the leftist who refuse tro accept on principle that incentivizing investment is how you build strong economies.

There is nothing miraculous about whats happening here.

We've applied Conservative economic principles with expected and successful results.

Its not magic.

One thing Texas has that no other state has, is Amarillo and Amarillo has the Big Texan and the 76 ounce steak.

The rocky mountain oysters and fried rattlesnake are a must for an appetiser.

Fenton said:

Oil and Gas is only 10 percent of Texas's GDP.

Try again.

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Wow then you definitely should be copying what Texas is doing instead of bitching about it.

pdog said:

That's not the point - the point is that they are taking existing jobs, not creating jobs thru innovation.


Clearly you didn't read my post or the articles. Texas ranks behind even california in turns of business taxes vs gross product. Only mega corporations are getting 19 billion in sweetheart deals. In any case you're admitting relocation over creation.


You need to read past the rhetoric on this one - according to the article 441 native born americans moved to texas from other states between 2010 and 2011. Sure that would be a lot....if another 358k didn't flee Texas. And since you're constantly bashing california - in 2012 62k moved from California...but 43K moved TO California.

Click to expand...

So 62k business owners moved from California and 43k welfare recipients moved TO California.

Smartmouthwoman said:

Sounds like somebody is a little envious. Regional bigotry is so ugly. Remember when we used to be the UNITED States instead of 'why I hate _____?'

(Texas, California, The South, etc.... fill in the blank)

Click to expand...

The Peoples Republic of California is their own country.....damn heathens.

nota bene said:

So I'm going to guess that you don't like Texas.

Click to expand...

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What was your first clue?