U.S. deficit falls to $680 billion [W:599]

Conservative said:

If not now, when, the economy came out of recession in June 2009, what pro growth economic policies has Obama promoted?

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This, for one: American Jobs Act

MTAtech said:

This, for one: American Jobs Act

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Didn't know that Harry Reid was a Republican?

In the Senate, the bill was stalled by Majority leader Harry Reid on September 27, 2011 who said "I don’t think there’s anything more important for a jobs measure than China trade, and that’s what we’re going to work on next week," with emphasis on taking up more tenuous legislation which is less likely to draw political attention.[16] On October 4, 2011, Minority Leader Mitch McConnell attempted to offer the Act as an amendment to the China trade bill, saying that while he disagreed with the bill's approach to job creation, it deserved to be voted on.[17] On October 5, Reid announced a plan to pay for the American Jobs Act with a 5% surtax on incomes of more than $1 million a year.[18]

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How is raising taxes pro growth?

MTAtech said:

The issue that I take is timing. It isn't that the U.S. should never address long-term debt. It's whether the time to do that is now, in a weak economy.

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You may recall that in the late 80’s and early 90’s there was a new microprocessor speed, new disk capacity, new operating system, etc. every month. Some people chose not to buy PC’s because they wanted to wait for the next innovation, but when that came out they still didn’t buy because they could foresee the next generation. In the end their hesitancy only delayed their entry into the personal computer era and retarded their economic development as the nation’s business community shifted rapidly to take advantage of the productivity enhancements that were necessary to be competitive. There was never a right time, yet every time was the right time. It strikes me that your concern about timing regarding addressing long term debt is analogous. As I noted, we have become addicted to national political strategies that whip up crisis mentality whenever a politician, a party, a special interest group, an industry…… wants to justify a proposed action. It makes good news and it sells. There will always be a new crisis (PC innovation) coming out before the dust of the last one settles. We must guard against the temptation to justify deferring formulation of debt management policy because we encounter crisis after crisis.

I engaged in very high pressure businesses (started two of them) for about 30 years. These were custom projects businesses – very high visibility projects with significant technology performance risks and often critical schedule risks for our customer. The Speaker of the House (not the current one) once called one of our national defense customers to make sure that we were succeeding in our performance and schedule commitments! Many of our projects were large enough that failure would have put the company out of business. I often had to calm down our younger employees who worked every day in “crisis mode”. I had to explain that continual crisis after crisis, every day, day after day, without end is not a crisis – it is just daily work – problem solving. When we accept that, we define strategies and implement tactics that yield results. And, we continuously evaluate and adjust as we see the results and learn.

There is never a right time, yet every time is the right time.

It is common sense to take a method and try it. If it fails, admit it frankly and try another. But above all, try something. – President Franklin D. Roosevelt

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WhyNotWhyNot said:

You may recall that in the late 80’s and early 90’s there was a new microprocessor speed, new disk capacity, new operating system, etc. every month. Some people chose not to buy PC’s because they wanted to wait for the next innovation, but when that came out they still didn’t buy because they could foresee the next generation.
...

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That very nice story would be compelling, except for the fact that businesses embraced this technology and PC sales were about 10 million in 1985. That grew over time. Businesses knew that advances were constantly coming but also knew that they could benefit from the advances immediately.

MTAtech said:

That very nice story would be compelling, except for the fact that businesses embraced this technology and PC sales were about 10 million in 1985. That grew over time. Businesses knew that advances were constantly coming but also knew that they could benefit from the advances immediately.

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Yes and no. It depended a lot on the business. I was really referring to individuals and rather small businesses. It was a true story - I had many friends who delayed actually as I described. In 1989 I joined an engineering company - a national leader today. They had computers and AutoCAD for designers - but none for engineers (engineers didn't make drawings and consequently did not need them!). I was the radical who in a previous job had bought one of the Super Bowl Ad Macs and I forced the change. A couple years later we were a partner with Flour Daniel and I worked in the Ervine, CA office - many of their designers were still doing manual drafting.

But we are diverging from the point that we will always be able to find a crisis reason why we should not address long term strategies - because of the crisis we don't have time to work on financial position, immigration, drug law policy, liberty vs security policy, election law policy, social security sustainability, medicare sustainability, national programs to build economic foundations.... As long as we take this easy way out (the time isn't right), we will continue our default path continuing the trends of the last 15 year that we are pretty sure, from end to end of the spectrum of political views, is undesirable

Conservative said:

If not now, when, the economy came out of recession in June 2009, what pro growth economic policies has Obama promoted?

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I think that we should address this issue about 8 years ago, when our economy was booming.

imagep said:

I think that we should address this issue about 8 years ago, when our economy was booming.

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The economy was indeed booming from 2003-2007 and over all Bush economy generated 4.4 trillion to the GDP. Since Democrats took over the Congress in January 2007-2011 the economic growth has been stagnant, there has been high unemployment, and high deficits so the question remains what pro growth economic policies has Obama proposed and implemented?

You see, far too many here have no idea what the four components of GDP are and what percentage they generate thus many here are calling for more govt. spending. That isn't the answer. It is in Europe but not here. Wonder if you can figure out why?

MTAtech said:

This is especially clear if we try to understand why conservatives, in the midst of a continuing jobs crisis, somehow remain obsessed with the supposed need for cuts in Social Security and Medicare. This obsession never made economic sense.

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Social Security sustainability and Medicare sustainability, are other subjects that are not crisis but that do require thoughtful governance actions. If we do nothing, the social security trust fund will be reduced to zero in the early 2030’s. Then the social security daily revenue income will be about 2/3 of the daily disbursement commitment. The equal sharing of pain scenario is that all existing beneficiaries will immediately get 2/3 benefits. It will slowly decline more after that. The Medicare scenario is worse. These are stark statements in the Social Security Administration’s annual reports. I doubt that any of us, liberal or conservative, finds this scenario to be desirable. Therefore, we must address it so that we mitigate the shortage and distribute it differently (that is really what eligibility changes do). It is not a “crisis” but we do need to recognize that changes to benefit policies and tax policies take many years to have meaningful effect.

The Social Security program plays an important part in providing for families, children, and older persons in times of stress. But it cannot remain static. Changes in our population, in our working habits, and in our standard of living require constant revision – President Kennedy

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There is no logical “systems design” connection between Social Security / Medicare financial management and national debt growth management. SS / Medicare collect their own taxes, have their own reserve funds (even if they are invested in the US gov’t debt), and pay their distributions. Their operations do not contribute to the national debt growth. These programs may be building future debt liability, depending on how we eventually choose to deal with the shortfalls that these programs are projected to experience, but they are not currently contributing to the debt.

I find it hard to believe that 435 congressman and 100 senators don’t have sufficient resources to work on a debt sustainability bill and a Social Security / Medicare sustainability bill simultaneously.

How do you eat an elephant? The wise man answered, “One bite at a time.”

The problem is that national disfunctional “leadership” chooses competition above everything. As I noted we live in an era of politics justified by crisis. The conservatives are simply selling a Social Security / Medicare crisis justification in order to compete with the economic weakness / jobs crisis justification that liberals are clubbing them with. And, the liberals are countering with the argument that Social Security and Medicare issues are myths.

Conservative said:

The economy was indeed booming from 2003-2007 and over all Bush economy generated 4.4 trillion to the GDP.

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A. That $4.4 trillion GDP growth was the weakest growth in most any president (we don't measure GDP growth by the raw dollar gain; we measure it by real p% gains. Otherwise, each successive president would benefit from the fact that the raw GDP number gets larger over time.)

Conservative said:

Since Democrats took over the Congress in January 2007-2011 the economic growth has been stagnant, there has been high unemployment, and high deficits so the question remains what pro growth economic policies has Obama proposed and implemented?

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Let's see, the Republicans were in charge of the House since 1994 and you blame the Democrats for the recession that started the year they took over. What SPECIFIC policies did the Democrats pass, over the objection of the Republican president?[/QUOTE]

Conservative said:

You see, far too many here have no idea what the four components of GDP are and what percentage they generate thus many here are calling for more govt. spending. That isn't the answer. It is in Europe but not here. Wonder if you can figure out why?

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First, Europe promoted austerity as the answer to the crisis. That was a failure. Government spending is an important part of GDP and it is well established that when an economy lacks demand, government spending can right the economy.

MTAtech;1062673860]A. That $4.4 trillion GDP growth was the weakest growth in most any president (we don't measure GDP growth by the raw dollar gain; we measure it by real p% gains. Otherwise, each successive president would benefit from the fact that the raw GDP number gets larger over time.)Let's see, the Republicans were in charge of the House since 1994 and you blame the Democrats for the recession that started the year they took over. What SPECIFIC policies did the Democrats pass, over the objection of the Republican president? First, Europe promoted austerity as the answer to the crisis. That was a failure. Government spending is an important part of GDP and it is well established that when an economy lacks demand, government spending can right the economy.

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You really need to get out more, tell that to the over 146 million Americans working in that economy. You measure GDP the way you want and I will measure it on the benefits it offers to the American people. Get your nose out of the books and actually talk to people who benefit in current dollars, not inflation adjusted dollars.

As for Govt. spending, you seem to be working hard to convert this economy to the European style economy where Govt. generates the highest percentage of GDP Unlike in this country so when you cut spending in Europe you kill their economy, in this country you benefit the private sector and that is why our economy has survived during difficult economic times

Conservative said:

Didn't know that Harry Reid was a Republican?



How is raising taxes pro growth?

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" On October 5, Reid announced a plan to pay for the American Jobs Act with a 5% surtax on incomes of more than $1 million a year"



“The reduction in the top tax rates appears to be uncorrelated with saving, investment and productivity growth. The top tax rates appear to have little or no relation to the size of the economic pie.

Non-Partisan Congressional Tax Report Debunks Core Conservative Economic Theory-GOP Suppresses Study - Forbes

Weird how the rich had the lowest sustained marg tax rate and among the lowest effective tax rates on record, yet under Bush we had the slowest post war growth?

WhyNotWhyNot said:

You may recall that in the late 80’s and early 90’s there was a new microprocessor speed, new disk capacity, new operating system, etc. every month. Some people chose not to buy PC’s because they wanted to wait for the next innovation, but when that came out they still didn’t buy because they could foresee the next generation. In the end their hesitancy only delayed their entry into the personal computer era and retarded their economic development as the nation’s business community shifted rapidly to take advantage of the productivity enhancements that were necessary to be competitive. There was never a right time, yet every time was the right time. It strikes me that your concern about timing regarding addressing long term debt is analogous. As I noted, we have become addicted to national political strategies that whip up crisis mentality whenever a politician, a party, a special interest group, an industry…… wants to justify a proposed action. It makes good news and it sells. There will always be a new crisis (PC innovation) coming out before the dust of the last one settles. We must guard against the temptation to justify deferring formulation of debt management policy because we encounter crisis after crisis.

I engaged in very high pressure businesses (started two of them) for about 30 years. These were custom projects businesses – very high visibility projects with significant technology performance risks and often critical schedule risks for our customer. The Speaker of the House (not the current one) once called one of our national defense customers to make sure that we were succeeding in our performance and schedule commitments! Many of our projects were large enough that failure would have put the company out of business. I often had to calm down our younger employees who worked every day in “crisis mode”. I had to explain that continual crisis after crisis, every day, day after day, without end is not a crisis – it is just daily work – problem solving. When we accept that, we define strategies and implement tactics that yield results. And, we continuously evaluate and adjust as we see the results and learn.

There is never a right time, yet every time is the right time.

Click to expand...

"We must guard against the temptation to justify deferring formulation of debt management policy because we encounter crisis after crisis."


AUSTERITY FAILS EVERYWHERE IT'S TRIED. We can either grow our way out of the GOP debt problem and/or get back to Clinton era tax revenues (near 20%21% of GDP)

Conservative said:

The economy was indeed booming from 2003-2007 and over all Bush economy generated 4.4 trillion to the GDP. Since Democrats took over the Congress in January 2007-2011 the economic growth has been stagnant, there has been high unemployment, and high deficits so the question remains what pro growth economic policies has Obama proposed and implemented?

You see, far too many here have no idea what the four components of GDP are and what percentage they generate thus many here are calling for more govt. spending. That isn't the answer. It is in Europe but not here. Wonder if you can figure out why?

Click to expand...

Conservative said:

"The economy was indeed booming from 2003-2007"

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Economy Made Few Gains in Bush Years

Bush Lead During Weakest Economy in Decades - washingtonpost.com


Those tax cuts passed in 2001 amid big promises about what they would do for the economy. What followed? The decade with the slowest average annual growth since World War II. Amazingly, that statement is true even if you forget about the Great Recession and simply look at 2001-7.

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/11/18/were-the-bush-tax-cuts-good-for-growth/


DECEMBER 2007

The Economic Consequences of Mr. Bush

The next president will have to deal with yet another crippling legacy of George W. Bush: the economy. A Nobel laureate, Joseph E. Stiglitz, sees a generation-long struggle to recoup.

The Economic Consequences of Mr. Bush | Vanity Fair

Conservative said:

Since Democrats took over the Congress in January 2007-2011

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CARE TO GIVE THE BILLS THAT CHANGED BUSH POLICY PRE JAN 2009?

Conservative said:

You really need to get out more, tell that to the over 146 million Americans working in that economy. You measure GDP the way you want and I will measure it on the benefits it offers to the American people. Get your nose out of the books and actually talk to people who benefit in current dollars, not inflation adjusted dollars.

As for Govt. spending, you seem to be working hard to convert this economy to the European style economy where Govt. generates the highest percentage of GDP Unlike in this country so when you cut spending in Europe you kill their economy, in this country you benefit the private sector and that is why our economy has survived during difficult economic times

Click to expand...

Conservative said:

You really need to get out more, tell that to the over 146 million Americans working in that economy.

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WEIRD THERE WERE ONLY 142 MILLION WHEN OBAMA CAME IN, AND LOSING 750,000 JOBS A MONTH. 4.3+ MILLION THE FIRST YEAR OF HIS PREZ HE INHERITED. Along with that GDP losing over 9% last quarter of 2008!