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“In this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes”–B Franklin

Re: “In this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes”–B Frank

Possibly I was wrong to assume that you were a fairly informed poster. My bad...
Oh, "fairly" informed means knowing the "prebate" details in SOME "fair tax" proposals......

Yawn.

Do a touchdown dance and don't forget to spike the ball.
 
Re: “In this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes”–B Frank

Oh..well..."most"....and they don't even have to reference it! We should know, even when those talking about it don't know that they are talking about it, that they are talking about it!

Omniecessence!!!

All -

Let's see if we can tone down the slinging and get back to seeking a solution. Reality is that a national sales tax does not have broad enough consensus support to replace our traditional income tax method and it has too many detractors to gain enough support in our society that is always comfortable with status quo. The basic structure needs to be a progressive income tax to have any chance of making a meaningful change. As the chart I posted above shows, we had a very constant "all in" tax rate structure for the period 1979 to 2000 where the highest income group paid about 25% and the lower groups paid progressively less. This progressive structure did not harm the economy and it did not significantly impede the higher income earners as the following chart from the same citation shows.

incfig.jpg

Throughout the period the gap between the upper income group and the rest grew - apparently for some reasons other than tax policy and inspite of the fact this group had a high tax rate. Itis clear that a progressive tax did not block the high income group that we expect to invest in new economic activity.
 
Re: “In this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes”–B Frank

Um..ALL.....um, it isn't a great idea to defend the current tax laws with a chart showing the massive income gains enjoyed by the top 1% from 1979 to the 2000.

What you should have shown was "Figure D"

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-soi/tomnta.pdf
 
Re: “In this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes”–B Frank

Um..ALL.....um, it isn't a great idea to defend the current tax laws with a chart showing the massive income gains enjoyed by the top 1% from 1979 to the 2000.

What you should have shown was "Figure D"

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-soi/tomnta.pdf

How about you post it? The moderator already chopped my initial post for this to the bone because it was too much from a single source. Figure D should be shown here. It indicates that the fraction of all federal income tax revenue paid by the top 1% grew from 15% to 37% over the period. It shows the 1% to 10% share was a constant 30% over the period. thus in 2000 the top 10% share of the federal income tax revenue was about 67%. The top 20% of income earners paid 83% of the federal income tax revenue. The fraction paid by the all groups below the top 10% declined over the period. The tax rates shown in Fig E were approximately constant so the concentration of taxes paid reflects the concentration income trend.
 
Re: “In this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes”–B Frank

So how would the math work? Last year my all-in federal income tax rate was 22%. Much of my income is allocated to things that are not consumables that would be subject to sales tax- home mortgage payment, retirement plan contribution, food.... The sales tax rate would need to be at least 40% to produce the same tax revenue that the government currently gets from me. Over 80% of federal income tax revenue is paid by 20% of the taxpayers. Consequently the sales tax rate will need to be set according to the consumable spending of the top 20% (and specifically the top 10%) or there will be a precipitous drop in federal revenue. I am a typical example in that group so I expect that a sales tax rate in excess of 40% will be required! That is a number that will destroy everybody except the elite handfull of billionaires.
 
Re: “In this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes”–B Frank

lower taxes for the rich?...no i want to return to voluntary taxation, as the founding fathers designed our system of government.

i dont have feelings in my heart of hate for people who have more money than me, and wish to steal from them, and redistribute that money to consolidate a position of power as you do.

And just how will we pay for govt.? You are making a fool of yourself. The progressive tax system is what made America the most prosperous nation on Earth.
People like you STILL want to demonize Henry Ford for paying his workers 5 dollars a day. Living in the past is not pretty.
 
Re: “In this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes”–B Frank

How about you post it? The moderator already chopped my initial post for this to the bone because it was too much from a single source. Figure D should be shown here. It indicates that the fraction of all federal income tax revenue paid by the top 1% grew from 15% to 37% over the period. It shows the 1% to 10% share was a constant 30% over the period. thus in 2000 the top 10% share of the federal income tax revenue was about 67%. The top 20% of income earners paid 83% of the federal income tax revenue. The fraction paid by the all groups below the top 10% declined over the period. The tax rates shown in Fig E were approximately constant so the concentration of taxes paid reflects the concentration income trend.
I am showing it, I posted a link to the ORIGINAL document. The reason for the shift in revenue towards the upper income quintiles is due to the fact...wait for it.....because of the larger share of wealth this quintile is capturing. And to add, the top quintile has been able to keep a larger portion of this cature because....wait for it.....their effective tax rate has declined. Oh....and since 2000, all of this has gotten better for the top quintiles.

Tax rates have become less progressive as the top quintiles have seen bigger slices of the income pie.
 
Re: “In this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes”–B Frank

I am showing it, I posted a link to the ORIGINAL document. The reason for the shift in revenue towards the upper income quintiles is due to the fact...wait for it.....because of the larger share of wealth this quintile is capturing. And to add, the top quintile has been able to keep a larger portion of this cature because....wait for it.....their effective tax rate has declined. Oh....and since 2000, all of this has gotten better for the top quintiles.

Tax rates have become less progressive as the top quintiles have seen bigger slices of the income pie.

But the point that I made originally was that in the period 1979 to 2000 (before the capital gains rate was reduced to 15% and before the "Bush tax cut") the effective all-in rate for the top 1% was approximately constant at 25% (see Figure E which I posted above) yet that group's average inflation adjusted income more than doubled and the 1% to 10% and 11% to 20% groups incomes grew about 25%. Everybody else was stagnant. The charts show two things: 1) tax policy was constant yet the rich got steadily richer - something other than tax policy was the underlying cause of the trend, 2) the all in tax rate of 25+% did not impede the rich from getting richer - consequently the argument that a higher capital gains tax rate will damage the investment ability of the top group of earners is not supported by the constancy of the data trends over this 20 year period where there were Republican and Democratic regimes, recessions and expansions, deficits and balanced budgets. Why not have a tax progression formula that simply resets us to the all-in tax rate data that was in place in the 1979 to 2000 era - no deductions and no differentiation according to the color of money that you make (oridinary income and capital gain income)?
 
Re: “In this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes”–B Frank

But the point that I made originally was that in the period 1979 to 2000 (before the capital gains rate was reduced to 15% and before the "Bush tax cut") the effective all-in rate for the top 1% was approximately constant at 25% (see Figure E which I posted above) yet that group's average inflation adjusted income more than doubled and the 1% to 10% and 11% to 20% groups incomes grew about 25%. Everybody else was stagnant. The charts show two things: 1) tax policy was constant yet the rich got steadily richer - something other than tax policy was the underlying cause of the trend, 2) the all in tax rate of 25+% did not impede the rich from getting richer - consequently the argument that a higher capital gains tax rate will damage the investment ability of the top group of earners is not supported by the constancy of the data trends over this 20 year period where there were Republican and Democratic regimes, recessions and expansions, deficits and balanced budgets. Why not have a tax progression formula that simply resets us to the all-in tax rate data that was in place in the 1979 to 2000 era - no deductions and no differentiation according to the color of money that you make (oridinary income and capital gain income)?
Chart E is not an effective tax rate chart, it is an average tax rate, and the top 1% enjoyed lowered rates under the GOP presidential years, their "average" rate only increased during the Clinton years, and I agree, the rates had little to no effect on investment. I have been arguing against voodooism for decades, all I am pointing out is that you need to be more accurate about what the data you present shows.
 
Re: “In this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes”–B Frank

Yeah, forget all that stuff about public health, scientific research, and interstate highways. Let's go back to the good old economy of 1870
These don't even approach the top ticket items that drive our excessive tax rates. Nor are these the things that politicians typically campaign and gain too much power by marketing to the public. So no, we're not forgetting those, I think if those were primarily all that government did in addition to the very limited enumerated powers, we wouldn't be this worked up in the first place.

Near 50% of people maknig over $200K goes in one way or another to a government agency. It's just silly.
 
Re: “In this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes”–B Frank

Near 50% of people maknig over $200K goes in one way or another to a government agency. It's just silly.

I posted this last January. It demonstrates your point

This is the reason for the thread "Mr O'Bama What Did I Do To Make You Hate Me?" I am a small business man; my wife and I make an income that was on the cusp of President O'Bama's definition of rich before that was raised by the bill that actually passed; we have normal deductions - a home mortgage, donations to church, energy saving appliances; tax deferred retirement plan contributions,.... no significant capital gains earnings. The ratio of our federal income tax payment to gross income has ranged from 21% to 23% for each of the last 10 years. FICA adds about 6% to that. Since we are self employed we also pay the "employer contribution" which is another 7%. Thus my all in federal income tax has been between 34% and 36%. My all in state income tax was about 6% making my total income tax rate 40% to 42%. But there is more to taxes than just income tax. Sales tax where I live is about 7%. Approximately 20% of our gross income goes to things that are not subject to this sales tax (such as mortgage payment and retirement plan contribution). So the sales tax applies to about 40% of our income so that the all in effect is about 3%. Our property tax is approximately 1% (that is a round down) of our income. The sum of all this is 44% to 46%. There are taxes beyond the ones I listed. Gasoline expenditures that are primarily caused by both of us travelling to work each day include a significant tax, there is excise tax in the electric bill, excise tax is paid when I buy tires.... Collectively these probably add another 1% to 2% to my all in tax rate. The result of all this is an all in tax rate of 45% to 48%.

You are right. Those of us who create small businesses from nothing work very hard, very long days, often 7 days per week so that we can break the 40% all in tax barrier.

I don't find it silly and I am not disturbed by the size of my contribution to government. What disturbs me is 1) that the government spends my contribution completely failing to use it to pursue a vision of the American dream of a better life for all, and 2)that the President campaigns that I am a robber baron getting rich at the expense of the "middle class" (bet he isn't driving a '99 with 175,000 miles on it).
 
Re: “In this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes”–B Frank

Chart E is not an effective tax rate chart, it is an average tax rate, and the top 1% enjoyed lowered rates under the GOP presidential years, their "average" rate only increased during the Clinton years, and I agree, the rates had little to no effect on investment. I have been arguing against voodooism for decades, all I am pointing out is that you need to be more accurate about what the data you present shows.

Really. How do you make progress arguing against voodooism by splitting semantic hairs, demonizing republicans, and exhalting democrats? If you were presented a graph of these data without axis labels and told to choose the best fit line through the top set of points you would pick a horizontal line at the 25% value by inspection and judge that the error would be about +/- 2%. Another way of putting this is that these "average" data points should have standard deviations that should have been shown as error bars on the points. if that had been done the 25% line probably would have touched nearly every error bar. There were marginal tax rate changes and also deduction and credit changes during the era. These were noted in the paper. They figure shows that they had minimal effect on the all in tax rates of any of the groups. So why not just set the tax rate for the top 1% at 25% of net income with no distinction of how the money was made and no deductions; set the rate at 16% for the 1% to 10% income group ... etc ? It is progressive, it is clean and simple, it eliminates the divisive politics of deductions for special purposes, and it produced adequate income for the government in the 1990s.
 
Re: “In this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes”–B Frank

Really. How do you make progress arguing against voodooism by splitting semantic hairs, demonizing republicans, and exhalting democrats? If you were presented a graph of these data without axis labels and told to choose the best fit line through the top set of points you would pick a horizontal line at the 25% value by inspection and judge that the error would be about +/- 2%. Another way of putting this is that these "average" data points should have standard deviations that should have been shown as error bars on the points. if that had been done the 25% line probably would have touched nearly every error bar. There were marginal tax rate changes and also deduction and credit changes during the era. These were noted in the paper. They figure shows that they had minimal effect on the all in tax rates of any of the groups. So why not just set the tax rate for the top 1% at 25% of net income with no distinction of how the money was made and no deductions; set the rate at 16% for the 1% to 10% income group ... etc ? It is progressive, it is clean and simple, it eliminates the divisive politics of deductions for special purposes, and it produced adequate income for the government in the 1990s.
The total effective tax rate on the top quintile during the Clinton admin came in at around 28%, the top 1% were paying around 36% in '96, I would be very happy just to go back to those laws. we were well on the way to to actually getting a balanced budget....not to say that tax rates effect gdp.....which would be voodooism.
 
Re: “In this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes”–B Frank

So no memes, no name calling, no blaming. How should we go about getting this under control?

I do not know how true this old adage is, corporations do not pay taxes, people do by buying their goods and services. I suppose the idea is to make people think a corporation's goods and service would be cheaper if they paid no taxes. It's possible I guess.

Divide and conquer has been the policy of both of the major parties in their attempts to win elections for quite awhile. That and the negative attack ad attacking something from a candidates past and trying to make him look like the devil reincarnated. Some how, ideas, solutions to our problems, vision of the future of America, your state, town, county or whatever has been lost in elections. The idea is to make the voter hate the other guy so much he ends up voting for the candidate he hates the least.

I see no solution.
 
Re: “In this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes”–B Frank

why do we need deductions, why just have a simple 1 page tax system, instead of 10's of thousands of tax regulations...which cost the tax payer to enforce.

Because if we did that the wealthiest people and corporations wouldn't have the loopholes to exploit middle-class taxpayers to pay for subsidies and government contracts.
 
Re: “In this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes”–B Frank

I do not know how true this old adage is, corporations do not pay taxes, people do by buying their goods and services. I suppose the idea is to make people think a corporation's goods and service would be cheaper if they paid no taxes. It's possible I guess.

Divide and conquer has been the policy of both of the major parties in their attempts to win elections for quite awhile. That and the negative attack ad attacking something from a candidates past and trying to make him look like the devil reincarnated. Some how, ideas, solutions to our problems, vision of the future of America, your state, town, county or whatever has been lost in elections. The idea is to make the voter hate the other guy so much he ends up voting for the candidate he hates the least.

I see no solution.

I do. It is you and me - even Fenton and HoJ. Check this out. I published it a year ago for just this reason. Notify me if you buy it - I'll donate your payment to this forum.

Amazon.com: The Wind of Hope eBook: Paul Smith: Kindle Store
 
Re: “In this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes”–B Frank

I do. It is you and me - even Fenton and HoJ. Check this out. I published it a year ago for just this reason. Notify me if you buy it - I'll donate your payment to this forum.

Amazon.com: The Wind of Hope eBook: Paul Smith: Kindle Store

I don't do Kindle as i like to sit down and read from a book and not a computer. But i like the description.

Hardship -> Resolve -> Satisfaction-> Happiness Our nation has experienced this cycle many times before. We know from experience that determined effort, persistence of purpose, unquestioned faith, and supporting one another will transform hardship into satisfaction. Resolve is “as American as God, Motherhood, and Apple Pie”. President Eisenhower said, “There is nothing wrong with America that faith, love of freedom, intelligence, and energy of her citizens cannot cure.” In the Wind Of Hope you will find fourteen essays about the very basic purposes of America that are so simply stated in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of the United States. They are timeless simple statements that capture the fundamentals of human harmony. We will find wisdom in our past and joy in our present. We will choose happiness for our future. You will conclude that pursuit of happiness is, in fact happiness.

Eisenhower was the first president I can remember through personal experience. I was born during Truman and outside of books, I can't remember what life was like during his administration. But during IKE, it was at a time when the majority of Americans trusted their own government. IKE is in my opinion still the best president during my lifetime.
 
Re: “In this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes”–B Frank

Because if we did that the wealthiest people and corporations wouldn't have the loopholes to exploit middle-class taxpayers to pay for subsidies and government contracts.

In post #59 Gimme campaigns against tax policy argument voodooism. This is it. Consider the data posted above. 60+% of federal income tax revenue is paid by the top 10% of income earners. 80+% is paid by the top 20%. The wealthy aren't using loopholes to expolit middle class taxpayers to pay for subsidies. They are actually paying for government for everybody. The "loopholes" were generally created to encourage or discourage social behavior (the gov't wants you to buy a house so they give you a mortgage deduction.....) or to serve special interests such as "green" proponents or to enhance the income of some Congressional district or State with an oil field. To compensate the marginal rates are set high so that the after deduction rates achieve the desired income. It is like a store marking up its prices so that it can offer a sale. Tax law should not be an indirect way of enacting social behavior legislation and it should not be a means of negative campaigning and accusation.
 
Re: “In this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes”–B Frank

In post #59 Gimme campaigns against tax policy argument voodooism. This is it. Consider the data posted above. 60+% of federal income tax revenue is paid by the top 10% of income earners. 80+% is paid by the top 20%. The wealthy aren't using loopholes to expolit middle class taxpayers to pay for subsidies. They are actually paying for government for everybody. The "loopholes" were generally created to encourage or discourage social behavior (the gov't wants you to buy a house so they give you a mortgage deduction.....) or to serve special interests such as "green" proponents or to enhance the income of some Congressional district or State with an oil field. To compensate the marginal rates are set high so that the after deduction rates achieve the desired income. It is like a store marking up its prices so that it can offer a sale. Tax law should not be an indirect way of enacting social behavior legislation and it should not be a means of negative campaigning and accusation.

Tell that to corporate lobbyists who are preventing major tax code reform.
 
Re: “In this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes”–B Frank

I don't do Kindle as i like to sit down and read from a book and not a computer. But i like the description.

Hardship -> Resolve -> Satisfaction-> Happiness Our nation has experienced this cycle many times before. We know from experience that determined effort, persistence of purpose, unquestioned faith, and supporting one another will transform hardship into satisfaction. Resolve is “as American as God, Motherhood, and Apple Pie”. President Eisenhower said, “There is nothing wrong with America that faith, love of freedom, intelligence, and energy of her citizens cannot cure.” In the Wind Of Hope you will find fourteen essays about the very basic purposes of America that are so simply stated in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of the United States. They are timeless simple statements that capture the fundamentals of human harmony. We will find wisdom in our past and joy in our present. We will choose happiness for our future. You will conclude that pursuit of happiness is, in fact happiness.

Eisenhower was the first president I can remember through personal experience. I was born during Truman and outside of books, I can't remember what life was like during his administration. But during IKE, it was at a time when the majority of Americans trusted their own government. IKE is in my opinion still the best president during my lifetime.

I too was a Truman era baby and IKE was the President of my elementary school days - I also don't do Kindle (but my wife is an addict). It is a very easy and inexpensive way to publish a book however - so I did it that way. Here is another IKE quote from the essay "Government By the Party and of the Party" in the book “In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. ” IKE was also the signer of the interstate highway act.

You can read Kindle books on your computer. A free reader program is available from Amazon.
 
Re: “In this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes”–B Frank

I too was a Truman era baby and IKE was the President of my elementary school days - I also don't do Kindle (but my wife is an addict). It is a very easy and inexpensive way to publish a book however - so I did it that way. Here is another IKE quote from the essay "Government By the Party and of the Party" in the book “In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. ” IKE was also the signer of the interstate highway act.

You can read Kindle books on your computer. A free reader program is available from Amazon.

No, I'll stick with paper. I'm old fashioned that way. Most of the books I get are through Bargain books which has taken overstocks and such. Sure they are not hot off the presses, but for the price and sometimes I am a slow reader, they are unbeatable.
 
Re: “In this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes”–B Frank

And just how will we pay for govt.? You are making a fool of yourself. The progressive tax system is what made America the most prosperous nation on Earth.
People like you STILL want to demonize Henry Ford for paying his workers 5 dollars a day. Living in the past is not pretty.

i am foolish?

no i am for freedom, not for compulsory taxes placed on people.

not for unlimited government, who feels they have powers to control people lives through taxation.

your tax and spread world, is drawing closer to its end.
 
Re: “In this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes”–B Frank

i am foolish?

no i am for freedom, not for compulsory taxes placed on people.

not for unlimited government, who feels they have powers to control people lives through taxation.

your tax and spread world, is drawing closer to its end.

LOL. Like we would go back to the 19th century. You are in denial. All western nations have signed on to the contract of the "New Bill of Rights" championed by FDR.
 
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