Bodhisattva

The piece of paper is just a piece of paper... yep.

What are the WORDS that are on that "piece of paper" though...

Now go back to my list and think again.

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obvious Child

Ink on paper. Without enforcement they mean effectively nothing in a legal system.

Nothing has changed. Without the American people to believe and enforce the Constitution, your list is still null and void. A piece of paper gives no rights. The government enforcing them does.

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"Maybe God doesn't care how you say your prayers, just as long as you say them" - Jeffery Sinclair

iamone

"The most important thing about this however is holding our representatives accountable for thier decisions. The people must be more active in this regard because as was pointed out earlier, Congress has been making a series of bad decisions, one after another."

And it's a shame they get to spend so much time in office before they are replaced by yet another, that does the same.

Katy J

Regarding the it's just a piece of paper argument, that is true in a sense but it is a piece of paper that represents the will of the people. And of course, it is up to us as a people to make sure it gets enforced.

I agree that because it isn't in the constitution doesn't mean it isn't a right. The way I read the constitution is that Congress can make no laws taking away certain rights and that those enumerated are not a definitive list. The constitution prevents rights from being taken away as opposed to giving us rights. We have rights by virtue of being human and these rights can only be limited by mutual agreement.

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Katy

Bodhisattva

Are you trying to be clever or are you simply dense... it is a fine line.

If you are trying to be clever, stop. It is a gradeschool idea that you are tossing out.
We are past that. Of course it is a stupid piece of paper. Of course it is just ink.

A governement is nothing without an idea or course of action.
The Constitution is that. The list is valid.

Words are nothing but sound vibration and if you don't understand English when I am talking, apparently my words mean nothing. Nice logic.
A gun isn't simply some metal. It is still something more without the bullet and the finger to shoot it.
We can pull out analogies all day showing how boring your argument is.

You either get the point of what I am saying or you don't.
I am not gonna play this tired little game with you any further though. Have fun.

obvious Child

Oh silly Bodhisattva. You actually think that the government abides to the Constitution these days?

That's funny.

Rights solely exist through government enforcement. And a government may pretend to be bound by its Constitution but it does not make it so as we have seen so many times in the past eight years. What the government gives, it can take away. And that includes rights. Habeus Corpus Mr. Lincoln?

Rights are an entirely man made, man enforced concept. The sooner we realize this, the sooner we can ensure our rights are enforced.

You'll have to excuse me since I don't believe that rights are God given, inalienable or inherent in Mankind. I've studied history far too often to realize that's a total load of garbage.

Bodhisattva

Dude!

It is not about what the DO do...
It is about the Social Contract and what they are SUPPOSED TO DO.

I never said anything about what the government is doing these days.
If you are going to take a superior attitude in hopes to dismiss my logical conclusions, the back up you interpretation or shut the **** up.

Seriously, what a joke.

Your communication skills suck, as do your interpretation skills. You are attributing my comments out of context, and I am afraid that this conversation will soon be at an end if it continues.

I agree with you that rights are man made... for they are. And that aligns PERFECTLY with my position the "ideas" and such outlined in the Constitution are man made and that, whether or not the government chooses to abide by them, they are more than simple a piece of paper and the ink that is written into it.

Dude, you even back me up yourself. "Rights are an entirely man made ... concept".
What are Rights, if they are not written down and understood?
We have rule books for sports too.

"Four legs good, two legs bad"

You sound like one of the sheep.

obvious Child

Hence why your argument fails. Your argument from a position of idealism rather then a position of what actually happens. We can believe in an ideal world that rights are inherent in man, that a piece of paper gives us these rights and that they cannot be taken away. The natural world laughs of course and loudly. If we look at how rights actually exist and behave, they are clearly from a position of enforcement. Once that enforcement stops, your rights stop. Meaning, ink on paper, a belief in a man in the sky and some inalienable factor of rights are worthless.

That's actually a different subject. Your argument as to the Constitution does not discuss enforcement. Hence why I've ignored it, It's not relevant specifically to the discussion. I'm not arguing that the Constitution is just ink and paper in general. I'm arguing that Constitution is just ink and paper when it comes to our actual, enforceable rights. Of course the Constitution is philosophy, a set of ideals. But that means nothing in the context of rights if there is no enforcement.

You can have rights without them being written down. We see this in Anarchy. Who ever can enforce whatever they want gets that right.

Bodhisattva

The BOLD...

You agree with me after all.
That wasn't so tough, was it?

I accept your concession.

Now we can go further if you like.

American

The Supreme Court of the United States has failed miserably. It has ruled from the bench, repeatedly and wrongly. Furthermore it has failed to strike down laws that are unconstitutional. Finally, the Congress has become so corrupt and remiss, that it fails in its own standard to control the passing of unconstitutional legislation. There has been a systematic degeneration due to the failure of men to be honorable. Taxation is the result of this lack of honor and prudent judgment.

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It's Obama's fault!