TurtleDude

I have worked for a FFL dealer and have represented gun dealers as an attorney. Here is how things work after the Brady law went into place

You go into a dealer's shop to buy a gun. You will out a 4473 which asks you several questions including whether you are a felon, under indictment, a fugitive from justice, or a dishonorably discharged vet. IF YOU ANSWER YES to any of those questions the DEALER STOPS PROCESSING THE TRANSACTION. IF YOU DENY BEING PROHIBITED then the dealer (before the instant back ground check and when it was implemented) proceeds to notify the law enforcement entity charged with the background check

IF YOU ARE PROPERLY DENIED, that means you have LIED on that form. That my friends is perjury. Clinton claimed hundreds of thousands of people stopped from buying guns


Does this mean that

1) they guessed that people who would be caught by the check didn't attempt to buy a gun?

or

2) those people were turned down by the check (and didn't buy the gun off the street)

if it is #1 that is a joke

if it is #2 then it proves that clinton's administration was a joke because the prosecutions of people for lying on a 4473 was the NUMBER TWELVE the first two years after the implementation of this law.

The US Attorney in the district which I reside in had NO Prosecutions for this violation during the clinton administration. and this area has a very high number of FFL and gun ownership

I have read just about every study of the Brady law. The only positive result ONE of these studies could find was a slight decrease in elderly SUICIDES.

The Clinton assault weapon ban was even more useless-not one study-(and that includes studies commissioned by anti gun organizations) could find a positive relation to crime control. Furthermore, despite the hysterical garment wetting from the ARC, "blood did not run" in the streets after the idiotic ban sunsetted in September 2004

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Willie Orwontee

I understand perfectly the quotes you posted. Problem is, your position is not supported by them and subsequently you are reduced to posting gibberish (when you must rely on your own mind to compose and convey your thoughts).

Did I misrepresent Madison's ratios? Is my math wrong? Don't the 9th and 10th Amendments mean anything? Please, please, please explain how Cooley endorses your position when it directly addresses it and then completely destroys it! Just in case you skimmed over it again here it is all alone, staring back at you . . .

"It may be supposed from the phraseology of this provision that the right to keep and bear arms was only guaranteed to the militia; but this would be an interpretation not warranted by the intent."

So, feel free to point out where my errors are.

This destruction of you is an ongoing process and I am nibbling away at your posts. Be patient and I will address everything.

I am not trying to refute your sources; I fully and completely endorse them. I am refuting your analysis of them and your claim that they support your arguments which are hostile to the individual right model of the 2nd Amendment.

If you are especially proud of a certain demonstration of your exemplary logic and understanding please give me a post number or re-re-re-re copy and paste it so I may give it specific attention to flay the flesh off it it too.

You look silly dancing when there is no music playing . . . Please sit down and compose a reasoned, logical rebuttal unencumbered by your childish excrement fixations.

Willie Orwontee

So now we turn our attention to your quotes from Jefferson . . .

And this impacts the private, individual right to arms how?

This statement is more of an indictment of the state and federal governments for being remiss in keeping a structure and program active for the organization and training of the people. That the government's are derelict in their duty does not impact the people's right to keep and bear arms.

Revisit Cooley for clarification; that if the right was dependent upon governmental regulations or other enactments, government could destroy the right by doing nothing:

"But the law may make provision for the enrolment of all who are fit to perform military duty, or of a small number only, or it may wholly omit to make any provision at all; and if the right were limited to those enrolled, the purpose of this guaranty might be defeated altogether by the action or neglect to act of the government it was meant to hold in check."

You forget (or ignore) the primary reason for the enactment of the 2nd Amendment was as a barrier to tyranny, to keep in awe those in power over the citizen. As Jefferson said, "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."

How are the people supposed to guard against usurpation of their rights by government if their rights depend upon government? Your position is a logical fallacy, a snake eating its tail . . . It goes round and round until it is no longer anything and that's why you are having such trouble.

Again an endorsement of the founders concept of classical, general militia and an indictment of the government's indifference to organizing the militia. Not in any way derogatory to the personal right to arms of individual citizens.

Is it really your argument that the "founder's intent" of dispensing with a "standing army" was to be fulfilled by declaring only those employed and approved by the government shall have the right to be armed?

Square that with another Jefferson quote; "To unequal privileges among members of the same society the spirit of our nation is, with one accord, adverse."

I really am in disbelief that you think this quote supports your position.

Again, Jefferson is speaking of the militia principle, fully manifested (as in Utopian), as the ideal situation. The mass of citizens (remember, we are talking about 20% to 25% of the entire population) trained in military movements and execution would be a formidable barrier to any foreign force and highly effective in the short term, "till regulars can relieve them."

In no way shape or form do Jefferson's quotes support your position.

Your scholarship is pitifully narrow and unenlightened. It is not in the government's power to create such conditions!

Jefferson (as President) repeatedly begged Congress to make law to organize and train the militia (which again was every male capable of bearing arms) because there was none. It was one of his main concerns as President and is a common theme in his speeches and writings of the early 19th century. His fears were realized with the defensive circumstances of the War of 1812.

Since you are such a fan, here's some Jefferson quotes for you to ponder:

"A free people [claim] their rights as derived from the laws of nature, and not as the gift of their chief magistrate." --Thomas Jefferson: Rights of British America, 1774

"A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun, therefore, be the constant companion of your walks." --Thomas Jefferson to Peter Carr, 1785

"In America, no other distinction between man and man had ever been known but that of persons in office exercising powers by authority of the laws, and private individuals." --Thomas Jefferson: Answers to de Meusnier Questions, 1786

"What is true of every member of the society, individually, is true of them all collectively; since the rights of the whole can be no more than the sum of the rights of the individuals." --Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1789.

"One loves to possess arms, though they hope never to have occasion for them." --Thomas Jefferson to George Washington, 1796

"The Constitution on which our Union rests, shall be administered by me [as President] according to the safe and honest meaning contemplated by the plain understanding of the people of the United States at the time of its adoption--a meaning to be found in the explanations of those who advocated, not those who opposed it, and who opposed it merely lest the construction should be applied which they denounced as possible." --Thomas Jefferson: Reply to Address, 1801

"I learn with great concern that [one] portion of our frontier so interesting, so important, and so exposed, should be so entirely unprovided with common fire-arms. I did not suppose any part of the United States so destitute of what is considered as among the first necessaries of a farm-house." --Thomas Jefferson to Jacob J. Brown, 1808

"[One measure] which I pressed on Congress repeatedly at their meetings... was to class the militia according to the years of their birth, and make all those from twenty to twenty-five liable to be trained and called into service at a moment's warning. This would have given us a force of three hundred thousand young men, prepared by proper training for service in any part of the United States; while those who had passed through that period would remain at home, liable to be used in their own or adjacent States. [This] would have completed what I deemed necessary for the entire security of our country." --Thomas Jefferson to Thaddeus Kosciusko, 1810

"[The] governor [is] constitutionally the commander of the militia of the State, that is to say, of every man in it able to bear arms." --Thomas Jefferson to A. L. C. Destutt de Tracy, 1811.

"We must train and classify the whole of our male citizens, and make military instruction a regular part of collegiate education. We can never be safe till this is done." --Thomas Jefferson to James Monroe, 1813

"I think the truth must now be obvious that our people are too happy at home to enter into regular service, and that we cannot be defended but by making every citizen a soldier, as the Greeks and Romans who had no standing armies; and that in doing this all must be marshaled, classed by their ages, and every service ascribed to its competent class." --Thomas Jefferson to John Wayles Eppes, 1814.

"Laws are made for men of ordinary understanding and should, therefore, be construed by the ordinary rules of common sense. Their meaning is not to be sought for in metaphysical subtleties which may make anything mean everything or nothing at pleasure. . . On every question of construction carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates and instead of trying what meaning may be squeezed out of the text or invented against it, conform to the probable one in which it was passed." --Thomas Jefferson to William Johnson, 1823

"The constitutions of most of our States assert that all power is inherent in the people; that... it is their right and duty to be at all times armed." --Thomas Jefferson to John Cartwright, 1824

There is not a single letter in any quote above that supports your misconstructed interpretation.

Accept that your position is puckerooed!

Bodhisattva

Willie Orwontee

I agree with some of the things that you say and I disagree with others...
I am not going to discuss anything though since you maintain your arrogant litle stance...
You jumped in acting like a prick and you sit around acting smug and superior.
That is fine.
Your choice.
Don't grow up on my accord.
Do it for yourself.
Accountability.
You, like Turtle, seem to miss major aspects of the conversation and it is boring repeating things to you in order to clarify what has already been said, and these little games make this whole endeavor a waste of time ultimately.
What I find interesting is that I agree with some of your analysis but you guys are so retardedly elitist that you can't admit that a somebody else might be correct about it...even something small.
High school was a long time ago and I don't like to play games...I just talk.
You and Turtle can sit back and think wahtever your arrogant little minds conjur up and have fun thinking that you have it all figured out, don't mess up your delsusions for anything!

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Willie Orwontee

The complete lack of an on point, logical and scholarly rebuttal is noted.

At least you did not reference poop in this post so I guess that's a major step forward.

TurtleDude

You kicked his butt and he whines about arrogance

Good job, I tip my hat to you sir

Reverend_Hellh0und

Like a pouty little schoolgirl. JEesh....



Ok.


2nd amendment=Individual right not collective right.


The "people" are the same "people" as in the other ammendments.


What part of "shall not be infringed" are you struggling with.

"Well regulated" means in "good working order"


The Militia is:

"I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for a few public officials."
— George Mason, in Debates in Virginia Convention on
Ratification of the Constitution, Elliot, Vol. 3



Jefferson and Madison agree with the Good Reverend. Any questions?


“Americans have the right and advantage of being armed- unlike the citizens of other countries whose governments are afraid to trust the people with arms.”

James Madison Federalist papers


“What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that the people preserve the spirit of resistance?”

Thomas Jefferson, 1787


"The Constitution of most of our states (and of the United States) assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed."
--Thomas Jefferson.


"No Free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."

-Thomas Jefferson proposal for Virginia's constitution of 1776

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Never forget those who killed them.

Reverend_Hellh0und

Oh and BS,


Who are the militia


Section 311. Militia: composition and classes

(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied
males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section
313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a
declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States
and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the
National Guard.
(b) The classes of the militia are -
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard
and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of
the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the
Naval Militia.




So the Militia are all able body males 17 years old and up and women in the national guard.



Your position is that militia's should be allowed to own guns but not the citizenry?

So according to law and you you don't want women to have guns?


See this is where you are confusingly wrong. Was it ignorance that you took your position?

TurtleDude

I just laugh at the contrarians pretending they know what the second amendment says when they start with the premise (and the baggage) that said amendment is not needed, outdated and contributes to a violent society. Where Bodi lost was his first position (its not needed and causes problems) requires him to accept the individual rights position, which he then attempted to deny.

Bodhisattva

Willie Orwontee

??? ???
Great Conclusion Willie! Superb! LOL!

There is no 'why' - Willie Orwontee

That has to be about the most naive statement that I have ever read.
So...there is no "why they should be armed" written in the 2nd Amendment?
Dude, there is as much "why they should be armed" as there is "why the right should not be infringed"... guess why genius?

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Hey, I will simply cut/paste another point that you chose to ignore... one that is the heart of the issue, and that is refusal to take accountability and to finish a point...like Turtle BTW.

Think what you will and this might be one of the last times I respond to you, for you, like Turtle, are unable or unwilling to communicate with intellectual honesty.

It really is interesting. I read what they say and agree.
You read what they say, "rework" it, and then you tell others that they are wrong...and in doing so, you are saying that the Founders are wrong because all I am doing is reiterating their words. Funny as hell really...

You try to hard... And in doing so you are missing some glaringly obvious truths.
We can discuss the finer points when you decide to elevate yourself above your grade-school mannerisms...

I know, you will fall back on the "poop" stuff and "rework" a whole lotta stuff in order to justify your position that it is all me and how smart you are and in doing so you will completely omit the fact that you came in acting like a two-bit prick ... so I am not holding my breath.