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The General Welfare Clause

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http://www.umt.edu/law/faculty/natelson/articles/gwc.pdf

Here is a very interesting analysis of this famous clause in the US Constitution, Article I, Section 8. I would recommend reading at least a good portion of this long article and then giving your opinions on the three interpretive views discussed by the author.
 
I'm surprised, we usually have a swarm of resident experts show up for this stuff. Here's your chance.
 
This clause gives the power to tax and spend.

If it gave the power to provide for the common defense and the general welfare, then the next 16 clauses would have been left out, leaving only the 'general welfare' and the 'elastic' clauses, as only the clauses would be necessary and the inclusion of the others, inexplicable.

That those clauses exist indicate that the 'general welfare clause' interpretation of Article I:8:1 is incorrect.

Oh yes -- Hamilton. (Note: See Madison)
The guy that argued against the bill of rights because he thought the enumeration of certain rights would mean that those were the only rights that existed? Yeah, that's him.

Where was his similar argument agianst the enumeration of the powers of Congress?

Hamilton's internal inconsistency, described above, illustrates the opportunistic nature of his arguments, and therefore negates their credibility. The left embraces his position on the matter because it gives them what they want and ignore Madison because his argument doesnt - but are unable to explain just how Madison is wrong.
 
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So what do you think of the paper? I think it does a decent job of explaining the varying views on that clause.
 
This clause gives the power to tax and spend.

If it gave the power to provide for the common defense and the general welfare, then the next 16 clauses would have been left out, leaving only the 'general welfare' and the 'elastic' clauses, as only the clauses would be necessary and the inclusion of the others, inexplicable.

That those clauses exist indicate that the 'general welfare clause' interpretation of Article I:8:1 is incorrect.

Oh yes -- Hamilton. (Note: See Madison)
The guy that argued against the bill of rights because he thought the enumeration of certain rights would mean that those were the only rights that existed? Yeah, that's him.

Where was his similar argument agianst the enumeration of the powers of Congress?

Hamilton's internal inconsistency, described above, illustrates the opportunistic nature of his arguments, and therefore negates their credibility. The left embraces his position on the matter because it gives them what they want and ignore Madison because his argument doesnt - but are unable to explain just how Madison is wrong.

There's no inconsistency. At least not in the argument's internal logic: rights don't require a bill of rights because of the status they occupy and governments require additional powers because of the status they occupy.
 
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There's no inconsistency. At least not in the argument's internal logic: rights don't require a bill of rights because of the status they occupy and governments require additional powers because of the status they occupy.
Ok.... and?
The argument laid out against the bill of rights was that 'if we list them, that's all there are'. The point is that this argument was not applied to the specification of the Powers of Congress; if you believe that 'governments require additional powers because of the status they occupy', said argument applies that much more.

Thus, inconsistency.
 
There's no inconsistency. At least not in the argument's internal logic: rights don't require a bill of rights because of the status they occupy and governments require additional powers because of the status they occupy.
I don't understand what you mean here.
 
So what do you think of the paper? I think it does a decent job of explaining the varying views on that clause.
The description of the varied views are just fine, from what I read.
 
Ok.... and?
The argument laid out against the bill of rights was that 'if we list them, that's all there are'. The point is that this argument was not applied to the specification of the Powers of Congress; if you believe that 'governments require additional powers because of the status they occupy', said argument applies that much more.

Thus, inconsistency.

So you interpret the general welfare clause as, we list them and thats all there are, but the bill of rights you interpret as open ended?
 
So you interpret the general welfare clause as, we list them and thats all there are, but the bill of rights you interpret as open ended?
This thread is about one clause, not every clause that might pop up in your mind.
 
So you interpret the general welfare clause as, we list them and thats all there are, but the bill of rights you interpret as open ended?

On the first part, yes.
On the second part, I am not sure what you refer to.
But, to try to address your question best I can ,absent that clarification, the 9th amendment states the case pretty well.
 
I think "General Welfare" was written intentionally vague, because the guys who wrote it were smart enough to realize that they were not smart enough to predict the future. The world changes, opinions change, the constitution changes, and our country changes.
 
I think "General Welfare" was written intentionally vague, because the guys who wrote it were smart enough to realize that they were not smart enough to predict the future. The world changes, opinions change, the constitution changes, and our country changes.
On the contrary - the idea that they left things open for interpretation flew out the window when they included the 10th amendment, leaving any powers not specified to the states.

If something came up that the states could not handle, the constitution could then be amended.
 
I think "General Welfare" was written intentionally vague, because the guys who wrote it were smart enough to realize that they were not smart enough to predict the future. The world changes, opinions change, the constitution changes, and our country changes.
They were smart enough to know how corrupt men are, and left no ambiguity designed to allow corruption without using corrupt means.
 
So you interpret the general welfare clause as, we list them and thats all there are, but the bill of rights you interpret as open ended?

The General Welfare Clause is merely the excuse provided to justify the enumerated powers. It is not in itself a power, nor is it justification for powers not enumerated.

The Tenth Amendment makes it perfectly clear that non-enumerated powers belong to the states, not Federal Government.

The Ninth Amendment makes it perfectly clear that the Bill of Rights is open ended.
 
I think "General Welfare" was written intentionally vague, because the guys who wrote it were smart enough to realize that they were not smart enough to predict the future. The world changes, opinions change, the constitution changes, and our country changes.

The men writing the Constitution were aware that changes would be needed in the future, so they included a specific process for amending the Constitution. That process did not include pet judges, seances, or creative fiction writing, as has been the process used to subvert the Constitution this last century.
 
On the contrary - the idea that they left things open for interpretation flew out the window when they included the 10th amendment, leaving any powers not specified to the states. If something came up that the states could not handle, the constitution could then be amended.

You seem to be treating the 10th Amendment only from the direction of the government itself, and not from the direction of the citizens' rights. According to the 10th, rights are not limited by their enumeration, but only by express powers granted to the government. So, for instance, the federal system choose to do X because X is not in its enumerated powers. But wait a second...the rights of the citizen or state are not limited by their constitutional enumeration, so doesn't a citizen or a state have a right to use the federal government in a capacity (such as welfare funds) they find useful, even if the federal government itself is prevented from initiating such a relationship? Doesn't it mean that as long as the relationship is voluntary and initiated by the citizen or state user, the federal government is fully allowed to operate as whatever level of services the unbounded-rights-having citizen wishes it to offer, and expresses that wish through electing leaders who agree? Or is the individual citizen's rights limited by the limitation of governmental powers? That would seem to be the exact opposite of what the 10th Amendment says.
 
This seems to be simply another talking point in the battle of the far right in America to repeal all the progressive advances of the entire 20th Century.

The listing of general welfare is an item in and by itself and is not dependent on any other listing in that section.
 
This seems to be simply another talking point in the battle of the far right in America to repeal all the progressive advances of the entire 20th Century.

The listing of general welfare is an item in and by itself and is not dependent on any other listing in that section.

"Leges posteriores priores contrarias abrogant". The 10th Amendment requires enumeration of powers. If it is not enumerated, it is not a federal power.
 
"Leges posteriores priores contrarias abrogant". The 10th Amendment requires enumeration of powers. If it is not enumerated, it is not a federal power.



In my copy of the Constitution, the general welfare clause is indeed one of the enumerated powers right there is item #1 of Article I, Section 8 -
 
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The Tenth Amendment makes it perfectly clear that non-enumerated powers belong to the states, not Federal Government.

You're wrong. The Tenth Amendment makes it perfectly clear that non-enumerated powers belong to the states and to the people. Which is why more state and federal laws should be addressed via referendum in order for the people to protect themselves from both the federal government and state governments.
 
In my copy of the Constitution, the general welfare clause is indeed one of the enumerated powers right there is item #1 of Article I, Section 8 -

The general welfare clause is not an enumeration of power. The power issued in Article I, Section 8.1 is the power of taxation. It is not an open-ended power. The general welfare clause describes the purpose, but is itself not a power. Furthermore, the 10th Amendment supersedes the general welfare clause and requires enumeration of federal power.

Thomas Jefferson explained the latter general welfare clause for the United States: “[T]he laying of taxes is the power, and the general welfare the purpose for which the power is to be exercised. They [Congress] are not to lay taxes ad libitum for any purpose they please; but only to pay the debts or provide for the welfare of the Union. In like manner, they are not to do anything they please to provide for the general welfare, but only to lay taxes for that purpose.

Of course, there have always been two interpretations of the general welfare clause:

James Madison advocated for the ratification of the Constitution in The Federalist and at the Virginia ratifying convention upon a narrow construction of the clause, asserting that spending must be at least tangentially tied to one of the other specifically enumerated powers, such as regulating interstate or foreign commerce, or providing for the military, as the General Welfare Clause is not a specific grant of power, but a statement of purpose qualifying the power to tax.

Alexander Hamilton, only after the Constitution had been ratified, argued for a broad interpretation which viewed spending as an enumerated power Congress could exercise independently to benefit the general welfare, such as to assist national needs in agriculture or education, provided that the spending is general in nature and does not favor any specific section of the country over any other.

The Supreme Court predominantly interpreted the Constitution along the lines of Madison, up until 1936. In the United States vs. Butler, the Supreme Court initially reinterpreted the general welfare clause along the lines of the Hamilton-Story view, as described by Story, later going for full plenary power, allowing Congress to decide what it could legitimately spend tax revenue on.

Although it struck down the Act, the Court dealt positively with taxation and the expenditure of funds to advance the general welfare as specified in Article 1 § 8 of the Constitution. The Court stated that the issue “presents the great and the controlling question in the case.” After comparing expansive vs. restrictive interpretations of the Spending Clause, the Court adopted the philosophy that:
The clause confers a power separate and distinct from those later enumerated, is not restricted in meaning by the grant of them, and Congress consequently has a substantive power to tax and to appropriate, limited only by the requirement that it shall be exercised to provide for the general welfare of the United States. … It results that the power of Congress to authorize expenditure of public moneys for public purposes is not limited by the direct grants of legislative power found in the Constitution.

Prior to 1936, the United States Supreme Court had imposed a narrow interpretation on the Clause, as demonstrated by the holding in Bailey v. Drexel Furniture Co., in which a tax on child labor was an impermissible attempt to regulate commerce beyond that Court's equally narrow interpretation of the Commerce Clause. This narrow view was later overturned in United States v. Butler. There, the Court agreed with Associate Justice Joseph Story's construction in Story's 1833 Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States. Story had concluded that the General Welfare Clause was not a general grant of legislative power, but also dismissed Madison's narrow construction requiring its use be dependent upon the other enumerated powers. Consequently, the Supreme Court held the power to tax and spend is an independent power and that the General Welfare Clause gives Congress power it might not derive anywhere else. However, the Court did limit the power to spending for matters affecting only the national welfare.

Shortly after Butler, in Helvering v. Davis, the Supreme Court interpreted the clause even more expansively, conferring upon Congress a plenary power to impose taxes and to spend money for the general welfare subject almost entirely to its own discretion. Even more recently, the Court has included the power to indirectly coerce the states into adopting national standards by threatening to withhold federal funds in South Dakota v. Dole. To date, the Hamiltonian view of the General Welfare Clause predominates in case law.

It is notable at the time, that the popularity of Franklin Delano Roosevelt and the Democrats, as well as the plan to expand the size of the court, forced the conservative court to not determine New Deal legislation as unconstitutional.

And we see today the results of this unchecked spending power of Congress, willing to pass legislation for all sorts of social spending.

$14 trillion in debt, 64% of which are entitlements, and growing.

It is a travesty and a complete violation of the original intent of the US Constitution to establish a LIMITED government.

The 10th Amendment clearly lays responsibility and power for social spending at the feet of the states and the people.
 
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I understand your opinion. I think you are wrong and based on its rulings now in effect, the Supreme Court thinks you are wrong.

Can you cite a modern Supreme Court ruling where they agree with your interpretation that the general welfare listing is not an enumerated power?

To be very frank here, your argument seems 100% political and not at all legalistic. You do not like progressive government and are trying to find a way to overturn it. Your rant at the end of your post seems to emphasize your strong feelings about this subject.
 
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I understand your opinion. I think you are wrong and based on its rulings now in effect, the Supreme Court thinks you are wrong.

Can you cite a modern Supreme Court ruling where they agree with your interpretation that the general welfare listing is not an enumerated power?

To be very frank here, your argument seems 100% political and not at all legalistic. You do not like progressive government and are trying to find a way to overturn it. Your rant at the end of your post seems to emphasize your strong feelings about this subject.

My opinion is not just my own. It is the opinion of Thomas Jefferson and James Madison. As I described, in the US v Butler, the Supreme Court chose the modified Hamiltonian interpretation. Later decisions were even more broad, allowing for the unchecked power of Congress to determine spending.

To date, the Hamiltonian view of the General Welfare Clause predominates in case law.

There can be no doubt that the Constitution was grounded in the ideal of establishing a limited government with checked powers among the branches. These legal decisions regarding the general welfare clause establishes an unchecked power. It was accomplished through the political machinations of the Roosevelt administration and Democrats in Congress.

The result of this is our current financial situation. Do you have any inclination of the predicted growth in debt for the federal government? Do you realize what my niece (3) and nephew (6) will have to pay in taxes to sustain this? What their children will have to pay and the opportunity cost of lack of private sector growth that will occur, not to mention the undoubtful requirement that government social services will be restricted and eliminated. We will leave them all of the cost and little of the benefit.

Progressive government is destroying the financial health of the country. It is all nice and good to say that we help the needy, but at what real cost?
 
My opinion is not just my own. It is the opinion of Thomas Jefferson and James Madison. As I described, in the US v Butler, the Supreme Court chose the modified Hamiltonian interpretation. Later decisions were even more broad, allowing for the unchecked power of Congress to determine spending.



There can be no doubt that the Constitution was grounded in the ideal of establishing a limited government with checked powers among the branches. These legal decisions regarding the general welfare clause establishes an unchecked power. It was accomplished through the political machinations of the Roosevelt administration and Democrats in Congress.

The result of this is our current financial situation. Do you have any inclination of the predicted growth in debt for the federal government? Do you realize what my niece (3) and nephew (6) will have to pay in taxes to sustain this? What their children will have to pay and the opportunity cost of lack of private sector growth that will occur, not to mention the undoubtful requirement that government social services will be restricted and eliminated. We will leave them all of the cost and little of the benefit.

Progressive government is destroying the financial health of the country. It is all nice and good to say that we help the needy, but at what real cost?

The US Supreme Court has spoken on this matter and it is settled law. As I suspected, your main argument is a political one. You would like to repeal much of the political progressive reforms of the 20th century and have attempted to seize on previous interpretations to justify your political agenda.

Your argument is really NOT about the Constitution. Its about progressive government.
 
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