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The State of Michigan has silenced Flint

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In an ongoing crisis involving tainted water, Flint, MI has been effectively silenced as a political entity. The city must now get approval from the state in order to sue the state.

I don't think the state will allow Flint to sue, but do they really have to? At this point, shouldn't the humanitarian crisis aspect take over?

Even if the state does fix the problem, will Flint be able to sue if they do a poor job? This is not clear in the article, however it does mention that a statute of limitations on the notice of intent to sue might not hold up in court.

"Whether the ... resolution stripping the city’s authority would survive a direct legal challenge is a question for another day. In the meantime, the city continues to be significantly under state control, even after the departure of the emergency manager, and while accumulating significant obligations as a result of decisions made by, and/or at the direction of emergency managers."

She said Flint has made "a request to the state for assistance with these obligations."


After court threat, state of Michigan removed Flint's power to sue
 
In an ongoing crisis involving tainted water, Flint, MI has been effectively silenced as a political entity. The city must now get approval from the state in order to sue the state.

I don't think the state will allow Flint to sue, but do they really have to? At this point, shouldn't the humanitarian crisis aspect take over?

Even if the state does fix the problem, will Flint be able to sue if they do a poor job? This is not clear in the article, however it does mention that a statute of limitations on the notice of intent to sue might not hold up in court.




After court threat, state of Michigan removed Flint's power to sue

Welcome to America. Oh you're poor? Your rights are theoretical. If you'd just be rich for a moment, your rights could become actual.
 
Welcome to America. Oh you're poor? Your rights are theoretical. If you'd just be rich for a moment, your rights could become actual.

True, but this is not just "poor," and "rich," this is political. Michigan is a political space.
 
True, but this is not just "poor," and "rich," this is political. Michigan is a political space.

Politics is 100% about poor and rich, depending upon how broadly you interpret those words. That being said, I'm not sure what kind of point you're trying to make by calling Michigan a "political space." Could you clarify what you mean?
 
Politics is 100% about poor and rich, depending upon how broadly you interpret those words. That being said, I'm not sure what kind of point you're trying to make by calling Michigan a "political space." Could you clarify what you mean?

I don't think that Flint is 100% poor people, at any given time, as part of Michigan. Flint might be poorer than other cities. We should measure how poor two cities are based on economic data. We can measure how poor a city is per capita, by income, relative to some benchmark.

If there's a middle class in Flint, and I think there is, then they are not "rich." Then we could divide the city into groups of "rich" and "not rich."

So if Flint is 100% poor people, then your simple statement might be right, but if Flint has fewer rights because they are significantly more poor, then shouldn't the upper class have more rights than the middle class have more rights than the lower class? I'm sure that high culture involves buying rights. Maybe it's just a dirty little secret rich people have to take care of once in a while, while they could be out yachting instead. So, there's a difference between who has many rights and who does not, and who has rights and who does not.

Do rich people simply have all the rights that poor people don't have, or does any citizen have rights according to what economic class they are in? I prefer the latter, because I don't like the social mobility structure of the former. It would be nice to not have to choose between the two, but it is the reality that we live in.

Remember that article, Congress Doesn't Care What You Think?

Well, for the average citizen that means awarding no citizen special privilege. Upon review of the study, I found that this is not as fair as it seems at first blush.
 
I don't think that Flint is 100% poor people, at any given time, as part of Michigan. Flint might be poorer than other cities. We should measure how poor two cities are based on economic data. We can measure how poor a city is per capita, by income, relative to some benchmark.

If there's a middle class in Flint, and I think there is, then they are not "rich." Then we could divide the city into groups of "rich" and "not rich."

So if Flint is 100% poor people, then your simple statement might be right, but if Flint has fewer rights because they are significantly more poor, then shouldn't the upper class have more rights than the middle class have more rights than the lower class? I'm sure that high culture involves buying rights. Maybe it's just a dirty little secret rich people have to take care of once in a while, while they could be out yachting instead. So, there's a difference between who has many rights and who does not, and who has rights and who does not.

Do rich people simply have all the rights that poor people don't have, or does any citizen have rights according to what economic class they are in? I prefer the latter, because I don't like the social mobility structure of the former. It would be nice to not have to choose between the two, but it is the reality that we live in.

Remember that article, Congress Doesn't Care What You Think?

Well, for the average citizen that means awarding no citizen special privilege. Upon review of the study, I found that this is not as fair as it seems at first blush.

1.) Of course the rich have more "rights" (and by that I, of course, mean privileges). Do you think wealthy or even solidly middle-class neighborhoods have to worry about having lead contaminated pipes? I mean, let's take your own article that you present, we know for a fact that the rich have far, far more access to the government's ear. That's a privilege the poor doesn't have.

2.) I'm talking about really-existing America, not the America that we would one day like to have.
 
1.) Of course the rich have more "rights" (and by that I, of course, mean privileges). Do you think wealthy or even solidly middle-class neighborhoods have to worry about having lead contaminated pipes? I mean, let's take your own article that you present, we know for a fact that the rich have far, far more access to the government's ear. That's a privilege the poor doesn't have.

2.) I'm talking about really-existing America, not the America that we would one day like to have.

I have to agree with that analysis, and yet, I would still like to believe that the poor have some rights. Like due process, for example.

Even poor people are very patriotic. It's very sad when our country lets them down again, and again.
 
True, but this is not just "poor," and "rich," this is political. Michigan is a political space.

And since the voters in Michigan who reside in Flint did NOT support the Republican Governor, the Republican candidates for State House or State Senate - they end up on the short end of the stick.
 
And since the voters in Michigan who reside in Flint did NOT support the Republican Governor, the Republican candidates for State House or State Senate - they end up on the short end of the stick.

They ended up on the end of the stick they voted for since Flint's leadership had turned the city into a colossal cesspool of failure long before Snyder came along
 
I don't think that Flint is 100% poor people, at any given time, as part of Michigan. Flint might be poorer than other cities. We should measure how poor two cities are based on economic data. We can measure how poor a city is per capita, by income, relative to some benchmark.

If there's a middle class in Flint, and I think there is, then they are not "rich." Then we could divide the city into groups of "rich" and "not rich."

So if Flint is 100% poor people, then your simple statement might be right, but if Flint has fewer rights because they are significantly more poor, then shouldn't the upper class have more rights than the middle class have more rights than the lower class? I'm sure that high culture involves buying rights. Maybe it's just a dirty little secret rich people have to take care of once in a while, while they could be out yachting instead. So, there's a difference between who has many rights and who does not, and who has rights and who does not.

Do rich people simply have all the rights that poor people don't have, or does any citizen have rights according to what economic class they are in? I prefer the latter, because I don't like the social mobility structure of the former. It would be nice to not have to choose between the two, but it is the reality that we live in.

Remember that article, Congress Doesn't Care What You Think?

Well, for the average citizen that means awarding no citizen special privilege. Upon review of the study, I found that this is not as fair as it seems at first blush.

Per Capita Income for Flint Michigan 2014

US $28,889
Michigan $26,613
Flint $23,253

Flint Michigan Household Income | Department of Numbers

Not great at all, Flint.
 
"to ensure that they maintain fiscal and organizational stability"

that doesn't sound like what the board is attempting here, but rather to cover for snyder, their real master

frankly throwing the state's budget in disarray, which one of the politicians fears, would be appropriate in this case. "All we have done for flint," yeah like poison them
 
They ended up on the end of the stick they voted for since Flint's leadership had turned the city into a colossal cesspool of failure long before Snyder came along

What decisions and policies did the Flint leadership pursue and follow that had the results you claim they are responsible for?
 
Welcome to America. Oh you're poor? Your rights are theoretical. If you'd just be rich for a moment, your rights could become actual.

Politics is 100% about poor and rich, depending upon how broadly you interpret those words. That being said, I'm not sure what kind of point you're trying to make by calling Michigan a "political space." Could you clarify what you mean?

1.) Of course the rich have more "rights" (and by that I, of course, mean privileges). Do you think wealthy or even solidly middle-class neighborhoods have to worry about having lead contaminated pipes? I mean, let's take your own article that you present, we know for a fact that the rich have far, far more access to the government's ear. That's a privilege the poor doesn't have.

2.) I'm talking about really-existing America, not the America that we would one day like to have.

You appear to be trying to derail the thread topic.
 
You appear to be trying to derail the thread topic.

Just adding commentary. You wasting time posting about it on the thread that I haven't posted on in a day or two, however, is much more likely to derail the thread.
 
I really don't even know where to start

Warren Evans - part of Wayne County's pension problem? - Story | WJBK
Sweetened pensions add to Wayne County's money problems

Epic Failure recipe:
Mix equal parts of fiscal incompetence, moral decay, and corruption. Set on blend for about 30 yrs. Enjoy with glass of water

I sked for evidence that it was Flint politicians who made decisions that doomed the city before Snyder came along - and you tell me about Wayne County!?!?!?!?!

Do even realize that Flint is NOT IN WAYNE COUNTY and is over an hour away? Your response makes no sense at all.

Try again - if you are able - and this time stick to Flint.
 
I sked for evidence that it was Flint politicians who made decisions that doomed the city before Snyder came along - and you tell me about Wayne County!?!?!?!?!

Do even realize that Flint is NOT IN WAYNE COUNTY and is over an hour away? Your response makes no sense at all.

Try again - if you are able - and this time stick to Flint.

Whoops my bad, I have a bunch of resources and pasted the wrong ones. ( even though the storylines are remarkable in similarity)

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/10/us/for-flint-mich-takeover-adds-to-the-list-of-woes.html

The Democrats’ Filthy Flint Water | Frontpage Mag
 
Whoops my bad, I have a bunch of resources and pasted the wrong ones. ( even though the storylines are remarkable in similarity)

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/10/us/for-flint-mich-takeover-adds-to-the-list-of-woes.html

The Democrats’ Filthy Flint Water | Frontpage Mag

The NY Times article says nothing about decisions Flint leaders made to cause the economic downfall of their city.

Th Frontpage article is from a far right wing attack rag that has no credibility and openly ignores decades of economic woes that hit the city causing the economic and political environment that Flint found itself in in recent years.

I would strongly urge you to educate yourself on the issue. This will help

Time line: How Flint's water crisis unfolded - Detroit Free Press

and this clearly shows the State control seriously compounded the resolution of any problem

Flint Water Crisis: A Step-By-Step Look At What Happened : The Two-Way : NPR

Please note that the decision to replace the Water system and the State Emergency Manager were events that took place well in advance of March 2013 7-1 council vote you cited as your evidence.

So what were these so called decisions that Flint leaders made that doomed the city long before Snyder came along?
 
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Whoops my bad, I have a bunch of resources and pasted the wrong ones. ( even though the storylines are remarkable in similarity)

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/10/us/for-flint-mich-takeover-adds-to-the-list-of-woes.html

The Democrats’ Filthy Flint Water | Frontpage Mag

This article contains much information about the report laying blame for the crisis mostly at the feet of the State of Michigan - which Governor Snyder is the head of.

Flint Water Task Force Findings: Michigan DEQ, Emergency Managers, Rick Snyder Criticized - The Atlantic

Michigan Governor Rick Snyder, under fire for his handling of the lead-poisoning crisis in Flint, has offered two main defenses: First, he acted as soon as he became aware of the problem. And second, much of the blame for the crisis rests not with him and the state government, but with either local authorities or the U.S. EPA, which he says failed to catch the contamination.
Now both of Snyder’s defenses have taken a hard blow from the panel he himself appointed to investigate the crisis.
[h=4]RELATED STORY[/h]
What Did the Governor Know About Flint's Water, and When Did He Know It?
The task force the Republican governor appointed delivered its report on Wednesday, a scathing 116-page chronicle of how residents of the state’s seventh-largest city ended up with high levels of lead in their drinking water—as well as contamination by carcinogenic compounds and an outbreak of Legionnaire’s disease. “The Flint water crisis is a story of government failure, intransigence, unpreparedness, delay, inaction, and environmental injustice,” the report declares at the outset.
Taken as a whole, the report places the majority of blame on the state government and its executive branch. In particular, the report blames Michigan’s Department of Environmental Quality and emergency managers appointed to run Flint by the governor as the primary culprits in the disaster. It notes that Flint was not under the control of elected officials at the time, and confirms it was the city’s emergency manager who made the decision to switch Flint’s water supply. (For why that switch occurred, go here.) And it takes Snyder to task, noting that ultimate responsibility for Michigan’s executive branch rests with him.


 
This is from the Executive Summary of findings in the 166 page report that reported to the Governor:

Executive Summary
Summary Statement
The Flint water crisis is a story of government failure, intransigence, unpreparedness, delay, inaction, and environmental injustice. The Michigan Department of Environmental Quality (MDEQ) failed in its fundamental responsibility to effectively enforce drinking water regulations. The Michigan Department of Health and Human Services (MDHHS) failed to adequately and promptly act to protect public health. Both agencies, but principally the MDEQ, stubbornly worked to discredit and dismiss others’ attempts to bring the issues of unsafe water, lead contamination, and increased cases of Legionellosis (Legionnaires’ disease) to light. With the City of Flint under emergency management, the Flint Water Department rushed unprepared into full- time operation of the Flint Water Treatment Plant, drawing water from a highly corrosive source without the use of corrosion control. Though MDEQ was delegated primacy (authority to enforce federal law), the United States Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) delayed enforcement of the Safe Drinking Water Act (SDWA) and Lead and Copper Rule (LCR), thereby prolonging the calamity. Neither the Governor nor the Governor’s office took steps to reverse poor decisions by MDEQ and state-appointed emergency managers until October 2015, in spite of mounting problems and suggestions to do so by senior staff members in the Governor’s office, in part because of continued reassurances from MDEQ that the water was safe. The significant consequences of these failures for Flint will be long-lasting. They have deeply affected Flint’s public health, its economic future,1 and residents’ trust in government.
The Flint water crisis occurred when state-appointed emergency managers replaced local representative decision-making in Flint, removing the checks and balances and public accountability that come with public decision-making. Emergency managers made key decisions that contributed to the crisis, from the use of the Flint River to delays in reconnecting to DWSD once water quality problems were encountered. Given the demographics of Flint,2 the implications for environmental injustice cannot be ignored or dismissed.

This is from the people that Snyder appointed to investigate. They assigned most of the blame to the State and he as head of the executive branch as well as the emergency manager and the inherent conflict in such a position as it destroys local government.
 
The rich and the poor have the same rights, the poor just have no power to enforce them.
 
The NY Times article says nothing about decisions Flint leaders made to cause the economic downfall of their city.

Th Frontpage article is from a far right wing attack rag that has no credibility and openly ignores decades of economic woes that hit the city causing the economic and political environment that Flint found itself in in recent years.

I would strongly urge you to educate yourself on the issue. This will help

Time line: How Flint's water crisis unfolded - Detroit Free Press

and this clearly shows the State control seriously compounded the resolution of any problem

Flint Water Crisis: A Step-By-Step Look At What Happened : The Two-Way : NPR

Please note that the decision to replace the Water system and the State Emergency Manager were events that took place well in advance of March 2013 7-1 council vote you cited as your evidence.

So what were these so called decisions that Flint leaders made that doomed the city long before Snyder came along?

Then you didn't read the article--
"But the city bears much blame for its condition because it did not adjust to its rapidly declining tax base and curb spending, city officials and residents said."
This was in a government takeover in 2002. Leadership fought against all the imposed budget cuts at that time and GUESS WHAT they continued to run huge deficits and GOLLY GEE wouldn't you know they run into a default again 12 years later. How could anyone ever have seen it coming???? FAIL FAIL FAIL
I strongly urge you to educate yourself in 2nd grade math that if you spend more than you take in, you'll go broke.
 
Then you didn't read the article--
"But the city bears much blame for its condition because it did not adjust to its rapidly declining tax base and curb spending, city officials and residents said."
This was in a government takeover in 2002. Leadership fought against all the imposed budget cuts at that time and GUESS WHAT they continued to run huge deficits and GOLLY GEE wouldn't you know they run into a default again 12 years later. How could anyone ever have seen it coming???? FAIL FAIL FAIL
I strongly urge you to educate yourself in 2nd grade math that if you spend more than you take in, you'll go broke.

Your so called article pales and is dwarfed in comparison to the OFFICIAL REPORT of the hand picked group of experts selected by the Governor of Michigan and empowered to investigate the water crisis.

And their findings - damning to the State and the Governor himself - were presented to you but you are ignoring for some reason.

Why are you doing so and insisting otherwise?

As to the allegation of declining tax base - what local decisions did Flint leaders make that caused the decline in tax base?
 
Your so called article pales and is dwarfed in comparison to the OFFICIAL REPORT of the hand picked group of experts selected by the Governor of Michigan and empowered to investigate the water crisis.

And their findings - damning to the State and the Governor himself - were presented to you but you are ignoring for some reason.

Why are you doing so and insisting otherwise?

As to the allegation of declining tax base - what local decisions did Flint leaders make that caused the decline in tax base?

Not once but on two occasions during the last 14 years, it had been determined by experts that flint would collapse unless drastic measures were taken, putting city residents in danger of not receiving basic human services. I call that gross negligence and a complete failure on city officials to best serve its people.
 
Not once but on two occasions during the last 14 years, it had been determined by experts that flint would collapse unless drastic measures were taken, putting city residents in danger of not receiving basic human services. I call that gross negligence and a complete failure on city officials to best serve its people.

So what specific decisions did Flint make bringing on this so called economic collapse? Produce them and when they were made.

You are being intentionally vague and simply repeating the right wing mantra of blaming the victim for historical trends it could not impact nor control.
 
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