• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

A Limited Government?

No, but WHAT other rights are recognized? How do we know which rights to recognize if they aren't written down and nobody every agreed to them? Maybe one person says they have the right to build a factory even if it pollutes because the government has no business telling him what he does on his own land. Then maybe the next person says they have a right to clean air because the polluter has no business violating his air space. What is a judge to do if they aren't written down? Just pick whichever one he likes better?
The judge assumes all rights exist and are recognized unless otherwise stated in statutory or civil law ie: no race or sex discrimination, no drunk driving, no selling illegal drugs, no nudity in public, no disturbing the peace, no protests without a permit, no jaywalking, no running stop signs, no, no, no, you can't do this and you can't do that. Those would be rights that aren't recognized by the government unless they are amended or repealed.
 
Last edited:
The judge assumes all rights exist and are recognized unless otherwise stated in statutory or civil law ie: no race or sex discrimination, no drunk driving, no selling illegal drugs, no nudity in public, no disturbing the peace, no protests without a permit, no jaywalking, no running stop signs, no, no, no, you can't do this and you can't do that. Those would be rights that aren't recognized by the government unless they are amended or repealed.

So, that's basically what I said the 9th meant up at the start of our discussion- just that people could do pretty much whatever they wanted unless it was illegal.

That's not really what I think of as a right. The enumerated rights mean much, much, more than that. They mean that the government can't prohibit you from doing it without a really good reason.
 
So, that's basically what I said the 9th meant up at the start of our discussion- just that people could do pretty much whatever they wanted unless it was illegal.

That's not really what I think of as a right. The enumerated rights mean much, much, more than that. They mean that the government can't prohibit you from doing it without a really good reason.
Good, we're finally in agreement then. The enumerated rights are simply numbered rights. Its what they say that matters.
 
I often see the argument advanced by conservatives that the framers wanted and designed a limited government, however the founding documents say nothing of a limited government, nor is there any reference to that in The Federalist Papers that I can find.
Then I can only assume you're either illiterate or just haven't looked very hard at all (by "looked very hard at all" I, of course, mean read the document beyond the first sentence). The tenth amendment clearly states that if the Constitution does not delegate a power to the federal government, it doesn't have it. If the national government was not supposed to be limited, why is there an amendment that explicitly states the government's powers are limited? If it's the Federalist Papers you want, try Federalist 45: "The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government, are few and defined."

I am left to wonder if you made any effort at all to find references to limited government powers before mashing the keyboard and producing your OP.
 
What you are describing is what James Madison WANTED the constitution to say, and it is even what he claimed it did say, but he lost that battle. No language supporting that view got into the constitution or was ratified and several of the other founders were very explicit in clarifying that it means exactly what it says- that the government has a power that is independent from all the others to tax and spend that is limited only by the requirement that the spending be focused on providing for the general welfare or common defense.
No, the language isn't there. But that's probably because the Founders didn't think anyone would be so ridiculous as to read an infinite power into those two phrases, especially when they enumerated specific powers that would easily fit into either of those two categories. Are you really suggesting all of Article I, Section 8 after the general welfare clause is entirely superfluous?
 
No, the language isn't there. But that's probably because the Founders didn't think anyone would be so ridiculous as to read an infinite power into those two phrases, especially when they enumerated specific powers that would easily fit into either of those two categories. Are you really suggesting all of Article I, Section 8 after the general welfare clause is entirely superfluous?

No... I'm not suggesting anything like that at all... The clause is the taxing and spending power. That's all it gives Congress. The power to tax and the power to spend. Not any of the other powers. The general welfare and common defense are limits on the powers to tax and spend. Congress can't tax or spend for reasons other than promoting the general welfare or common defense.
 
Actually, a word of warning on that. You should read them, no doubt. BUT, be aware that all the founders agreed at one point not to release any notes or letters or documents explaining the constitution except what had already been released in the federalist papers. They didn't want to muddy the waters with a bunch of conflicting explanations any more than they had to. And, they were of the opinion that it is what the constitution says, not what they intended it to say, that matters. So, they destroyed all the official notes of the convention and made everybody promise not to release any of their own.

It's easy to think of the founders like they are one amorphous blob. The all looked and dressed the same and many of them sought to present a unified front. But they were actually far more divided than even politicians today. For example, some of them thought that there should be no executive branch at all. Others thought that we should have a king. The idea of having federal courts at all was controversial. Some of them wanted a government that was far more limited than even the government we had under the Articles of Confederation and some wanted a government far more powerful than what we do have.

Madison waited until all the other major players in the convention were dead, then released his notes. So, take it for what it is. It is not the equivalent of say the official record of floor speeches in Congress,

Lol. So he waited until everyone was dead to shove off his lies to the people! Haha, not only is that not accurate considering their release date but complete hackish bull**** with no proof to back it up. You are awesome.

But, all that said, do read them. Madison was brilliant and the founders' writings in general are surprisingly interesting. Madison's Federalist Papers 10 and 51 are also especially good reading. You really need to sit down and parse what he's saying line by line because it is densely packed with fascinating ideas. Just don't take any of it as authoritative by itself.

Hahaha! You are picking out all of his works and calling them lies. It works against me! I must call it a lie! Proof? You? Nah..

Just go out and call the most brilliant man and father of the constitution a lie. It's so convincing. What is next is Mason is a lier too? What about Jefferson? I bet he is a lier. They all lie! Except here and here and here. Ignore that in order for those lines to not be lies I have to take them completely out of context. Hahaha
 
No... I'm not suggesting anything like that at all... The clause is the taxing and spending power. That's all it gives Congress. The power to tax and the power to spend. Not any of the other powers. The general welfare and common defense are limits on the powers to tax and spend. Congress can't tax or spend for reasons other than promoting the general welfare or common defense.

Haha. Lets ignore what they meant by that which I clearly put out in front of you so you can push welfare programs. So dishonest.
 
What the hell are you talking about? Did you not read my post or something?

I'm putting everything you said together. It all points to everything Madison did in the federalist papers as being lies and Madison being a lier. Then you try to shine it off like he waited around until everyone was dead. Which is just plain stupid and dishonest.

Federalist 41 kicks me in the nuts. Its probably best I just call it a lie. Yeah, that is workable. :D
 
Last edited:
I'm putting everything you said together. It all points to everything Madison did in the federalist papers as being lies and Madison being a lier.

Well, give it another read I guess because, no, that isn't what I said.

Then you try to shine it off like he waited around until everyone was dead. Which is just plain stupid and dishonest.

No kiddo. I don't just make things up. His notes were not published until 1840. That is 36 years after his primary ideological rival Alexander Hamilton died. 16 years after Thomas Jefferson died. 11 years after John Jay died. Etc.

Here, read the introduction to his notes if you like:

Madison's Notes were not published until about 1840, perhaps to fulfill an early decision by the original convention forbidding disclosure of the proceedings, to which Madison may have felt himself bound while the other participants lived, and it was after all the rest of them had died that he did finally publish them.

http://www.nhccs.org/dfc-0002.txt

Maybe you shouldn't fly off the handle calling people liars until you've done a little digging eh?
 
Last edited:
Well, give it another read I guess because, no, that isn't what I said.

No kiddo. I don't just make things up. His notes were not published until 1840. That is 36 years after his primary ideological rival Alexander Hamilton died. 16 years after Thomas Jefferson died. 11 years after John Jay died. Etc.

Here, read the introduction to his notes if you like:

Ok, so its just the notes? That doesn't mean anything and doesn't mean he is a liar about what he said earlier either.

Maybe you shouldn't fly off the handle calling people liars until you've done a little digging eh?

So he breached a deal and that makes him wrong? So ****ing what if he broke the deal? Who cares? It doesn't mean anything here. I already even knew about this but I thought you were intelligent enough not to think it had anything to do with this and could be used to prove your case. Do you realize my material doesn't come from his notes and they were published very early on when everyone was still alive? Lets say that again, EVERYONE was still alive. The notes mean nothing here.
 
Last edited:
Ok, so its just the notes? That doesn't mean anything and doesn't mean he is a liar about what he said earlier either.

So he breached a deal and that makes him wrong? So ****ing what if he broke the deal? Who cares? It doesn't mean anything here. I already even knew about this but I thought you were intelligent enough not to think it had anything to do with this and could be used to prove your case. Do you realize my material doesn't come from his notes and they were published very early on when everyone was still alive? Lets say that again, EVERYONE was still alive. The notes mean nothing here.

Just re-read my original post on it kiddo. You seem to be totally confused about what I said in it lol. Settle yourself down and think more carefully.
 
The same people who is calling for limit government will be the same people standing in line for their social security when the time. Ask them to give it back and see what happens. This is all a smoke screen.
 
The same people who is calling for limit government will be the same people standing in line for their social security when the time. Ask them to give it back and see what happens. This is all a smoke screen.

If I was forced to pay into the ponzi scheme, damn right I want my benefits. but I have a great idea, let people like me OPT out of it. How does that sound?
 
I often see the argument advanced by conservatives that the framers wanted and designed a limited government, however the founding documents say nothing of a limited government,

The singular purpose of the Constitution was to enumerate the specific powers that the people conferred to government. How is that endavor, in and of itself, not an express statement of the intent of limiting powers?

Are you saying that the Constitution is the base, the starting point, the least amount of powers that the government possessed when established and whatever powers it thinks it needs in the future can just be created out of thin air?

Perhaps, instead, it your contention that the people's reservation of the innumerable powers not granted to the federal government simply shrinks over time, until what, government is omnipotent? I mean really, let's take your preposterous theory to its ultimate conclusion.

nor is there any reference to that in The Federalist Papers that I can find.

You didn't look very hard (or my opinion, . . . at all).

For instance, how can one read Federalist 84 without learning and understanding that the express, enumerated powers of the Constitution is the full and complete and permanent (until amendment) exposition of the full ambit and orbit of government's powers?

The fundamental principle of specifically enumerated powers limiting the acts of government is perhaps the primary Federalist argument against adding a bill of rights to the Constitution. That the Constitution was a charter of conferred powers which originated from the people who consent to being governed, with the people reserving (retaining) what was not conferred, was seen as making the addition of a declaration of rights unnecessary, absurd and even dangerous.

The Federalists, in reviewing history, considered the claims of privilege known as bills of rights to be primitive and only necessary under lesser forms of government. Our novel Constitution was considered to reside on a much higher plane based in legitimacy of government action and that legitimacy is entirely based on government ONLY exercising the specific powers granted to it. You demand us to deny and ignore the most fundamental principles of the Constitution!

The Federalists maintained that bills of rights . . .

  • "have no application to constitutions professedly founded upon the power of the people, and executed by their immediate representatives and servants. Here, in strictness, the people surrender nothing; and as they retain every thing they have no need of particular reservations. "WE, THE PEOPLE of the United States, to secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America." Here is a better recognition of popular rights, than volumes of those aphorisms which make the principal figure in several of our State bills of rights, and which would sound much better in a treatise of ethics than in a constitution of government."

And why is that? Well, because under this Constitution, the powers of government were strictly limited to just the precise enumerations in the Constitution.

Our rights were safe because no power was ever granted to government that could be construed to permit it to act beyond what was granted:

  • "I . . . affirm that bills of rights, in the sense and to the extent in which they are contended for, are not only unnecessary in the proposed Constitution, but would even be dangerous. They would contain various exceptions to powers not granted; and, on this very account, would afford a colorable pretext to claim more than were granted. For why declare that things shall not be done which there is no power to do?"

The liberty interests known as "rights" are not "our rights" because of they appear in the Bill of Rights; they are our rights because no power exists that would legitimately allow government to act to harm them.

Rights are "EXCEPTIONS OF POWERS NOT GRANTED"; that means the Bill of Rights, under true Constitutional principles, is redundant.

Of course powers could be claimed to exist using inventive construction but they would be illegitimate, they would be stolen from the people:

  • "Why, for instance, should it be said that the liberty of the press shall not be restrained, when no power is given by which restrictions may be imposed? I will not contend that such a provision would confer a regulating power; but it is evident that it would furnish, to men disposed to usurp, a plausible pretense for claiming that power."

The Federalists feared those "disposed to usurp" saying that the simple statement that the government can't do something must mean that somewhere, somehow, a ---we just gotta find it--- power DOES exist to do what was expressly forbidden . . . Uhhhhh, 2nd Amendment anyone???????

So, I’d like to see conservatives source this argument; The Heritage Foundation advances an argument yet they do not show such limitations, nor do they source them.

So I ask the conservatives; where do you source this argument and what citations can you offer?

Well, you're the one that mentioned the Federalist. Let's see if the concept of powers being "limited" by the Constitution is represented at all in the Federalist Papers (emphasis added):

  • "In the first place it is to be remembered that the general government is not to be charged with the whole power of making and administering laws. Its jurisdiction is limited to certain enumerated objects, . . . "

    Federalist 14

  • "We have seen that in the new government, as in the old, the general powers are limited; and that the States, in all unenumerated cases, are left in the enjoyment of their sovereign and independent jurisdiction."

    Federalist 40

And to the often seen claim that the "doubtful and indefinite terms" of "general welfare" imputes a power to do whatever Congress thinks would benefit the "general welfare" and in the specific argument you make, that no limits on power are created by the "precise expressions" of § 8. (paragraph breaks added, edited for brevity, original here; Federalist 41)

And yes, I did intend to bold the whole damn thing . . .

  • "It has been urged and echoed, that the power ``to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts, and excises, to pay the debts, and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States,'' amounts to an unlimited commission to exercise every power which may be alleged to be necessary for the common defense or general welfare. . . . Had no other enumeration or definition of the powers of the Congress been found in the Constitution, than the general expressions just cited, the authors of the objection might have had some color for it; though it would have been difficult to find a reason for so awkward a form of describing an authority to legislate in all possible cases. . . . But what color can the objection have, when a specification of the objects alluded to by these general terms immediately follows, and is not even separated by a longer pause than a semicolon?

    hall the more doubtful and indefinite terms be retained in their full extent, and the clear and precise expressions be denied any signification whatsoever? For what purpose could the enumeration of particular powers be inserted, if these and all others were meant to be included in the preceding general power? Nothing is more natural nor common than first to use a general phrase, and then to explain and qualify it by a recital of particulars. But the idea of an enumeration of particulars which neither explain nor qualify the general meaning, and can have no other effect than to confound and mislead, is an absurdity, which, as we are reduced to the dilemma of charging either on the authors of the objection or on the authors of the Constitution, . . .

    Construe either of these articles by the rules which would justify the construction put on the new Constitution, and they vest in the existing Congress a power to legislate in all cases whatsoever. But what would have been thought of that assembly, if, attaching themselves to these general expressions, and disregarding the specifications which ascertain and limit their import, they had exercised an unlimited power of providing for the common defense and general welfare?
    "

    Federalist 41


Discussing mandatory intervals between elections, the Federalists argued that the more frequent the better for other nations. A one year interval would serve as a "security" for the people against an "unlimited government" unencumbered by a constitution. In our case, where the dangers of "the gradual innovations of an unlimited government" are NOT A FEAR, such short time frames are unnecessary for a people living under "a government limited, as the federal government will be, by the authority of a paramount Constitution":

  • "Where no Constitution, paramount to the government, either existed or could be obtained, no constitutional security, similar to that established in the United States, was to be attempted. Some other security, therefore, was to be sought for; and what better security would the case admit, than that of selecting and appealing to some simple and familiar portion of time, as a standard for measuring the danger of innovations, for fixing the national sentiment, and for uniting the patriotic exertions? The most simple and familiar portion of time, applicable to the subject was that of a year; and hence the doctrine has been inculcated by a laudable zeal, to erect some barrier against the gradual innovations of an unlimited government, that the advance towards tyranny was to be calculated by the distance of departure from the fixed point of annual elections. But what necessity can there be of applying this expedient to a government limited, as the federal government will be, by the authority of a paramount Constitution? Or who will pretend that the liberties of the people of America will not be more secure under biennial elections, unalterably fixed by such a Constitution, than those of any other nation would be, where elections were annual, or even more frequent, but subject to alterations by the ordinary power of the government?"

    Federalist 53

Discussing the Anti-federalist objection to the number of representatives in the Congress, Federalist 55 argues that the same principles apply as interval of elections. Additionally, since the limits on Congressional power are unique and comprehensive, (by this account, seemingly un-ordinary restraints), federal power does not extend to all matters, especially those under the control of subordinate legislative bodies which then were intended to have a voice in Congress (the Senate):

  • "It is necessary also to recollect here the observations which were applied to the case of biennial elections. For the same reason that the limited powers of the Congress, and the control of the State legislatures, justify less frequent elections than the public safely might otherwise require, the members of the Congress need be less numerous than if they possessed the whole power of legislation, and were under no other than the ordinary restraints of other legislative bodies. . . .

    The true question to be decided then is, whether the smallness of the number, as a temporary regulation, be dangerous to the public liberty? Whether sixty-five members for a few years, and a hundred or two hundred for a few more, be a safe depositary for a limited and well-guarded power of legislating for the United States?"

    Federalist 55

So it is clear that the concept of "limited powers" is well represented in the Federalist.

What's your next absurd argument?

That SCOTUS has never endorsed the doctrine of strictly limited powers dependent upon express enumeration in the Constitution?
 
Thank you for doing that, it saved me a couple of hours :)
 
The singular purpose of the Constitution was to enumerate the specific powers that the people conferred to government. How is that endavor, in and of itself, not an express statement of the intent of limiting powers?

Are you saying that the Constitution is the base, the starting point, the least amount of powers that the government possessed when established and whatever powers it thinks it needs in the future can just be created out of thin air?

Perhaps, instead, it your contention that the people's reservation of the innumerable powers not granted to the federal government simply shrinks over time, until what, government is omnipotent? I mean really, let's take your preposterous theory to its ultimate conclusion.



You didn't look very hard (or my opinion, . . . at all).

For instance, how can one read Federalist 84 without learning and understanding that the express, enumerated powers of the Constitution is the full and complete and permanent (until amendment) exposition of the full ambit and orbit of government's powers?

The fundamental principle of specifically enumerated powers limiting the acts of government is perhaps the primary Federalist argument against adding a bill of rights to the Constitution. That the Constitution was a charter of conferred powers which originated from the people who consent to being governed, with the people reserving (retaining) what was not conferred, was seen as making the addition of a declaration of rights unnecessary, absurd and even dangerous.

The Federalists, in reviewing history, considered the claims of privilege known as bills of rights to be primitive and only necessary under lesser forms of government. Our novel Constitution was considered to reside on a much higher plane based in legitimacy of government action and that legitimacy is entirely based on government ONLY exercising the specific powers granted to it. You demand us to deny and ignore the most fundamental principles of the Constitution!

The Federalists maintained that bills of rights . . .

  • "have no application to constitutions professedly founded upon the power of the people, and executed by their immediate representatives and servants. Here, in strictness, the people surrender nothing; and as they retain every thing they have no need of particular reservations. "WE, THE PEOPLE of the United States, to secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America." Here is a better recognition of popular rights, than volumes of those aphorisms which make the principal figure in several of our State bills of rights, and which would sound much better in a treatise of ethics than in a constitution of government."

And why is that? Well, because under this Constitution, the powers of government were strictly limited to just the precise enumerations in the Constitution.

Our rights were safe because no power was ever granted to government that could be construed to permit it to act beyond what was granted:

  • "I . . . affirm that bills of rights, in the sense and to the extent in which they are contended for, are not only unnecessary in the proposed Constitution, but would even be dangerous. They would contain various exceptions to powers not granted; and, on this very account, would afford a colorable pretext to claim more than were granted. For why declare that things shall not be done which there is no power to do?"

The liberty interests known as "rights" are not "our rights" because of they appear in the Bill of Rights; they are our rights because no power exists that would legitimately allow government to act to harm them.

Rights are "EXCEPTIONS OF POWERS NOT GRANTED"; that means the Bill of Rights, under true Constitutional principles, is redundant.

Of course powers could be claimed to exist using inventive construction but they would be illegitimate, they would be stolen from the people:

  • "Why, for instance, should it be said that the liberty of the press shall not be restrained, when no power is given by which restrictions may be imposed? I will not contend that such a provision would confer a regulating power; but it is evident that it would furnish, to men disposed to usurp, a plausible pretense for claiming that power."

The Federalists feared those "disposed to usurp" saying that the simple statement that the government can't do something must mean that somewhere, somehow, a ---we just gotta find it--- power DOES exist to do what was expressly forbidden . . . Uhhhhh, 2nd Amendment anyone???????



Well, you're the one that mentioned the Federalist. Let's see if the concept of powers being "limited" by the Constitution is represented at all in the Federalist Papers (emphasis added):

  • "In the first place it is to be remembered that the general government is not to be charged with the whole power of making and administering laws. Its jurisdiction is limited to certain enumerated objects, . . . "

    Federalist 14

  • "We have seen that in the new government, as in the old, the general powers are limited; and that the States, in all unenumerated cases, are left in the enjoyment of their sovereign and independent jurisdiction."

    Federalist 40

And to the often seen claim that the "doubtful and indefinite terms" of "general welfare" imputes a power to do whatever Congress thinks would benefit the "general welfare" and in the specific argument you make, that no limits on power are created by the "precise expressions" of § 8. (paragraph breaks added, edited for brevity, original here; Federalist 41)

And yes, I did intend to bold the whole damn thing . . .

  • "It has been urged and echoed, that the power ``to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts, and excises, to pay the debts, and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States,'' amounts to an unlimited commission to exercise every power which may be alleged to be necessary for the common defense or general welfare. . . . Had no other enumeration or definition of the powers of the Congress been found in the Constitution, than the general expressions just cited, the authors of the objection might have had some color for it; though it would have been difficult to find a reason for so awkward a form of describing an authority to legislate in all possible cases. . . . But what color can the objection have, when a specification of the objects alluded to by these general terms immediately follows, and is not even separated by a longer pause than a semicolon?

    hall the more doubtful and indefinite terms be retained in their full extent, and the clear and precise expressions be denied any signification whatsoever? For what purpose could the enumeration of particular powers be inserted, if these and all others were meant to be included in the preceding general power? Nothing is more natural nor common than first to use a general phrase, and then to explain and qualify it by a recital of particulars. But the idea of an enumeration of particulars which neither explain nor qualify the general meaning, and can have no other effect than to confound and mislead, is an absurdity, which, as we are reduced to the dilemma of charging either on the authors of the objection or on the authors of the Constitution, . . .

    Construe either of these articles by the rules which would justify the construction put on the new Constitution, and they vest in the existing Congress a power to legislate in all cases whatsoever. But what would have been thought of that assembly, if, attaching themselves to these general expressions, and disregarding the specifications which ascertain and limit their import, they had exercised an unlimited power of providing for the common defense and general welfare?
    "

    Federalist 41


Discussing mandatory intervals between elections, the Federalists argued that the more frequent the better for other nations. A one year interval would serve as a "security" for the people against an "unlimited government" unencumbered by a constitution. In our case, where the dangers of "the gradual innovations of an unlimited government" are NOT A FEAR, such short time frames are unnecessary for a people living under "a government limited, as the federal government will be, by the authority of a paramount Constitution":

  • "Where no Constitution, paramount to the government, either existed or could be obtained, no constitutional security, similar to that established in the United States, was to be attempted. Some other security, therefore, was to be sought for; and what better security would the case admit, than that of selecting and appealing to some simple and familiar portion of time, as a standard for measuring the danger of innovations, for fixing the national sentiment, and for uniting the patriotic exertions? The most simple and familiar portion of time, applicable to the subject was that of a year; and hence the doctrine has been inculcated by a laudable zeal, to erect some barrier against the gradual innovations of an unlimited government, that the advance towards tyranny was to be calculated by the distance of departure from the fixed point of annual elections. But what necessity can there be of applying this expedient to a government limited, as the federal government will be, by the authority of a paramount Constitution? Or who will pretend that the liberties of the people of America will not be more secure under biennial elections, unalterably fixed by such a Constitution, than those of any other nation would be, where elections were annual, or even more frequent, but subject to alterations by the ordinary power of the government?"

    Federalist 53

Discussing the Anti-federalist objection to the number of representatives in the Congress, Federalist 55 argues that the same principles apply as interval of elections. Additionally, since the limits on Congressional power are unique and comprehensive, (by this account, seemingly un-ordinary restraints), federal power does not extend to all matters, especially those under the control of subordinate legislative bodies which then were intended to have a voice in Congress (the Senate):

  • "It is necessary also to recollect here the observations which were applied to the case of biennial elections. For the same reason that the limited powers of the Congress, and the control of the State legislatures, justify less frequent elections than the public safely might otherwise require, the members of the Congress need be less numerous than if they possessed the whole power of legislation, and were under no other than the ordinary restraints of other legislative bodies. . . .

    The true question to be decided then is, whether the smallness of the number, as a temporary regulation, be dangerous to the public liberty? Whether sixty-five members for a few years, and a hundred or two hundred for a few more, be a safe depositary for a limited and well-guarded power of legislating for the United States?"

    Federalist 55

So it is clear that the concept of "limited powers" is well represented in the Federalist.

What's your next absurd argument?

That SCOTUS has never endorsed the doctrine of strictly limited powers dependent upon express enumeration in the Constitution?


What is clear is that such restrictions did not make into the final draft. The amdendment process and the commerce and elastic causes are what make my point. It's fine to quote projections and rhetoric; which, when we break it down, is what the federalist papers were. You can argue from them all you like, however our constitution tells what what is here; not what was proposed.
 
What is clear is that such restrictions did not make into the final draft. The amdendment process and the commerce and elastic causes are what make my point. It's fine to quote projections and rhetoric; which, when we break it down, is what the federalist papers were. You can argue from them all you like, however our constitution tells what what is here; not what was proposed.

Then you admit being wrong about the federalist papers . . . that there was no explanation / statement regarding the strictly limited powers of the Constitution?

What's next; is Marbury v Madison no longer good law?
 
Last edited:
Then you admit being wrong about the federalist papers . . . that there was no explanation / statement regarding the strictly limited powers of the Constitution?

What's next; is Marbury v Madison no longer good law?

I'm not wrong about The Federalist Papers in any way. The only thing that matters is what came out of the final draft of the US Constitution, and that final draft; for the reasons I've stated, show that you are wrong. Marbury vs Madison only deliniated the separations of power which have nothing to do with what I'm talking about.

You must use the final draft; up to and including, the commerce clause, the elastic clause, the amendment process and The Declaration of Independence: which should declare such limits outright, but do not appear to source your argument.

So, I'm afraid that what you really need is an amendment that places limits on the federal government; but, by design, and through a very very experienced and well thought out historical process, the US government - and the people who make it up have lots of room with which to live. So, you're wrong.
 
I admit I have not read the entire thread but just for the sake of throwing it out there (and no need to rehash it if you did, I'll review the thread tomorrow when I have some time) but . . .

Have you addressed at all the addition of what became the 9th and 10th Amendments?
 
I admit I have not read the entire thread but just for the sake of throwing it out there (and no need to rehash it if you did, I'll review the thread tomorrow when I have some time) but . . .

Have you addressed at all the addition of what became the 9th and 10th Amendments?

Hi Willie,

Yes, I have addresssed those two amendments. I'm being difficult about it on purpose: it's a point of argumentation. I disagree with the entire "limited government" argument. I think; based on the source documents, that "limited" as such, was not an "active ingredient": it was about the balance of power" that was built into a system that would grow with the times and the population. I'm sort of a "living constitution" sort of guy.

There is nothing in any of the founding documents that we live by, that says that I'm wrong on that.
 
I admit I have not read the entire thread but just for the sake of throwing it out there (and no need to rehash it if you did, I'll review the thread tomorrow when I have some time) but . . .

Have you addressed at all the addition of what became the 9th and 10th Amendments?

Legally the 9th and 10th amendments are meaningless. It's one of those things that before I went to law school sounded like one of the most important provisions in the constitution, but once you learn a bit about the law you realize they actually have no effect on anything. The 9th amendment says that enumerating rights doesn't negate unenumerated rights. But what does that really mean? If it just means that people can still do whatever, so long as it isn't illegal, that's certainly true, but it didn't need to be said. That was always obviously true. On the other hand, if it means that there are a bunch of unenumerated rights out there that have the same sort of impact the enumerated ones do- that the government can't infringe them without a very good reason- then that just isn't possible for a court to apply the 9th. Any judge could just strike down any law they want by making up whatever unenumerated right they want. There could be an unenumerated right to dictate what religion other people follow for example. The court would have no constitutional basis for either recognizing or rejecting that "right". It just isn't workable to have unenumerated rights that act like the enumerated rights.

The 10th on the other hand is just superfluous. The Supreme Court refers to it as a tautology- that which the government is not empowered to do, it is not empowered to do. That would be equally true without the 10th amendment. The federal government can only do those things it has been given an enumerated power to do. Everything the federal government does, at least in theory, flows from one of the enumerated powers. For example, the government has the power to spend to provide for the general welfare and common defense. That's a pretty huge bucket.
 
if you do not believe that the Constitution forms a limited government, you must either believes it forms no government, or it forms an unlimited government.

I doubt Jet will be so bold as to argue that it forms no government, so I would assume he is in the camp that believes it forms an unlimited government.

if that were true, that we formed an unlimited government, the Constitution would then be wholly unnecessary in it's current form... a simple sentence " this document is forming a government" would be all that is needed... they could do any thing they want, without ever having to address the Constitution.

the government could hold slaves even, it could kill for your no reason, it can discriminate indiscriminately, it can sieze your property or life without due process, it can imprison you without charges or a trial.... the list of what the government could do is endless, because it's an unlimited government.



so what is it Jet.. is our government limited or unlimited? ... or maybe you are gonna go with " we don't have a government"

let us know your choice.
 
Hi Willie,

Yes, I have addresssed those two amendments. I'm being difficult about it on purpose: it's a point of argumentation. I disagree with the entire "limited government" argument. I think; based on the source documents, that "limited" as such, was not an "active ingredient": it was about the balance of power" that was built into a system that would grow with the times and the population. I'm sort of a "living constitution" sort of guy.

There is nothing in any of the founding documents that we live by, that says that I'm wrong on that.

the mere existence of the Constitution says you are wrong.... it is, after all, a document that does nothing but limit government... that's it's only function.
 
Back
Top Bottom