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What is your opinion on Redistribution of Wealth?

I'm an electrical engineer with a concentration in control theory. Most of my work involves control systems for aerospace applications at the moment, but I'm also interested in non-linear intelligent control methodologies like Fuzzy Logic. I use the name "SocialEngineer" because I'm a big fan of using sound engineering principles in the creation of our laws to create a stable society, much like the principles of control theory apply feedback to a mechanical or electrical system to eliminate instabilities and detrimental behaviors. Fuzzy Logic was originally introduced to describe social systems, in fact.

Very cool! I'm an electrical guy myself. I work more with embedded systems. I've decided to focus more on that because the marketability for starting my own little companies off of product ideas is a lot better than some of the other fields.

I imagine in control theory you work with quite a bit of embedded design?
 
The problems that are cause by the government can only be solved by fixing the government.

The biggest problem is that our political system has been usurped, and the partisan discourse has been turned into a tool to keep us divided and distracted so that we are unable to collectively fight the usurpation. Economics, race, sexuality, religion and science. Look at the issues. Everything is framed by the discourse in a way that promotes arguing over a small sticking point, instead of ignoring or bypassing the sticking points to address the larger issues.

Example: The patent system just got changed this year, to make it impossible for an inventor to protect his patent if someone manages to steal their idea and patent it before they can. Before, you had a period of time to challenge a patent if you could prove that you invented it first. That allowed inventors to pursue the funding to get a patent from investors without the risk that the investor would hamstring them and file the patent for themselves.

Did you know about that? I'll bet that the members of this forum spend YEARS worth of man hours every day bitching back and forth about whether the insurance mandate in ObamaCare is Constitutional, justifiable, or otherwise beneficial to society, when the actual result makes so little difference compared to larger issues, that it is basically irrelevant. But I'd bet that almost every single member of this forum can take one look at what I just mentioned, and see that it's a HUGE economic problem.

And the patent system is just the tip of the iceberg that this nation is currently plowing into. Industries are being strangled with unnecessary regulations that only megacompanies can comply with, while the important laws that reinforce competition and market choice in our economy are being eliminated in the name of "deregulation". These detrimental changes always seem to pass with a bipartisan majority, while efforts to fix the damage fail.

The Tea Parties and OWS BOTH understand this problem. Both OWS and the Tea Parties know that the problem exists in both parties. And both have been villianized by the mass media. The "teabaggers" are just a bunch of white racist rednecks, and the occupiers are just unemployed stoners in their 20's that want the government to solve all their problems. It's bull****. Both movements want the exact same thing. They want to eliminate the stranglehold that the partisan political discourse has on our individual political power, restore our ability to control our government, and take control of our own social mobility again. They get demonized and polarized by the media and the political discourse because the people who use those tools to cover for their own bull**** don't want those sides to see that they're actually on the same team.

Did they actually do away with provisional patents?

One year of protection for $100?

That would SUCK.
 
we absolutely DO NOT have equal opportunity. if we did, we would still have a responsiblity to provide for those can't provide for themselves.

No, our opportunity is not "equal" across the board. I think the issue at the heart of it is people mistake unequal outcomes for unequal opportunity. More intelligent, social people will generally be successful than their less intelligent counterparts, everything else equal. In the same way, children born into wealth will have access to better schools and resources than those who did not grow up. However, this is just the way life is. All the attempts to "fix" this inequality have lead to terrible unintended consequences. The good intentions of higher minimum wage have hurt those who add the least "monetary" value to society. Affirmative action has become discrimination AGAINST certain races (white, Asian) based on artificial racial divides. Our system, while imperfect, does grant much opportunity to those who choose to work hard and seize it. I grew up very poor, my parents were immigrants, and my entire family and I have realized a portion of the American dream that was not possible in our home country.
 
in my opinion it is not ok to take money from somebody who has earned to and give it to somebody who has not. we have equal opportunity in this country so the choice of one person should not result in "stealing" from another.

lolwut

name one area of american life where you have this.

name even one.
 
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In my opinion it is not ok to take money from somebody who has earned to and give it to somebody who has not. We have equal opportunity in this country so the choice of one person should not result in "stealing" from another.

Agree completely, as it creates an entitlement mentality, in which one person believes he deserves the labor of another, just by fact of his existence, and creates bad will. Charity should be strictly voluntary, as any other method, or coercion, results in discord.
 
Well wealth redistribution is part of our constitution in the form of equalization payments between provinces and I agree with that completely.
 
No, our opportunity is not "equal" across the board. I think the issue at the heart of it is people mistake unequal outcomes for unequal opportunity. More intelligent, social people will generally be successful than their less intelligent counterparts, everything else equal. In the same way, children born into wealth will have access to better schools and resources than those who did not grow up. However, this is just the way life is. All the attempts to "fix" this inequality have lead to terrible unintended consequences. The good intentions of higher minimum wage have hurt those who add the least "monetary" value to society. Affirmative action has become discrimination AGAINST certain races (white, Asian) based on artificial racial divides. Our system, while imperfect, does grant much opportunity to those who choose to work hard and seize it. I grew up very poor, my parents were immigrants, and my entire family and I have realized a portion of the American dream that was not possible in our home country.

While I will admit that every government action and program has results in both good and bad, just by the law of averages, about half of unintended consequences are bad, and about half are good. If the intended consequences are good, then the total number of positive consequences outweigh the total number of negative consequences.

The total positive consequences of having a public school system outweigh the total negative consequences of not having a public school system. The total positive consequences of having a police force outweigh the total negatives. The total positives of having a military outweigh the total negatives. Etc.
 
Very cool! I'm an electrical guy myself. I work more with embedded systems. I've decided to focus more on that because the marketability for starting my own little companies off of product ideas is a lot better than some of the other fields.

I imagine in control theory you work with quite a bit of embedded design?

I do. My Senior Design project involved using an Arduino-based open-source project to turn an R/C helicopter into an unmanned drone. I replaced the attitude feedback control algorithms with my own designs, and performed successful unmanned flights. The vast majority of my programming experience is directed towards embedded systems.

I'm also graduating in May, and looking for a job doing design work, if you happen to know anyone. #ShamelessSelfPromotion
 
Did they actually do away with provisional patents?

One year of protection for $100?

That would SUCK.

No they didn't, but they made it much harder to seek funding to follow through. Plus a hundred bucks for every new idea is still not a poor man's hobby, and it usually costs more when you hire a lawyer to help you file the provisional application.
 
While I will admit that every government action and program has results in both good and bad, just by the law of averages, about half of unintended consequences are bad, and about half are good. If the intended consequences are good, then the total number of positive consequences outweigh the total number of negative consequences.

The total positive consequences of having a public school system outweigh the total negative consequences of not having a public school system. The total positive consequences of having a police force outweigh the total negatives. The total positives of having a military outweigh the total negatives. Etc.

True, and yet there are a multitude of ways to eliminate many of the negative consequences of all of the systems you cite. School vouchers preserve the universal access provided by public funding of education, while reintroducing all of the advantages of market economic provided by market choice and competition. A well regulated militia structure that armed and trained average citizens would hugely augment the power of the police force (especially in violent neighborhoods), while empowering the law-abiding citizens in those neighborhoods with more power to influence positive change, while still maintaining overall command and control with the proper authorities. Solutions to the problems of the military industrial complex include more competition for contracts, and more government accountability for fraud, waste and abuse, which would reduce both costs and corruption, while increasing the overall quality of the products fielded by our military.
 
While I will admit that every government action and program has results in both good and bad, just by the law of averages, about half of unintended consequences are bad, and about half are good. If the intended consequences are good, then the total number of positive consequences outweigh the total number of negative consequences.

The total positive consequences of having a public school system outweigh the total negative consequences of not having a public school system. The total positive consequences of having a police force outweigh the total negatives. The total positives of having a military outweigh the total negatives. Etc.

Unfortunately, it is not always a foregone conclusion that the intended consequences of legislation are an overall positive. Most of the bills introduced in Congress are written by lobbyists for individual special interests, and their adoption is generally based on the level of campaign support given by those interests. The consequences are ALWAYS good for the special interest, but not always good for society as a whole.

That, of course, is the entire problem with our government right now.
 
Wow, this is the first thread with so many pages that I see here on DP (music threads excluded). :stars:

No time to read it all but... no redistribution is what I say. :)
 
Wow, this is the first thread with so many pages that I see here on DP (music threads excluded). :stars:

No time to read it all but... no redistribution is what I say. :)

So it's OK for a handful of families to eventually own most everything and for you to own nothing and have to rent everything that you have from those few families?
 
So it's OK for a handful of families to eventually own most everything and for you to own nothing and have to rent everything that you have from those few families?

Those are two different things. "Crony Capitalism" is as bad as "$ocialism".
 
So it's OK for a handful of families to eventually own most everything and for you to own nothing and have to rent everything that you have from those few families?

Seems like there a couple of things that get conflated in this discussion. Yes we should have a progressive tax system. Yes we need a proper safety net. That being said in a capitalist society there will always be winners and losers. That is what has made our economy the greatest by far in the world. So it is a matter of balance.
 
Seems like there a couple of things that get conflated in this discussion. Yes we should have a progressive tax system. Yes we need a proper safety net. That being said in a capitalist society there will always be winners and losers. That is what has made our economy the greatest by far in the world. So it is a matter of balance.

There are indeed multiple sub threads within this thread. Distribution and redistribution are complicated subjects, with zillions of different things going on at the same time. I totally agree about needing a progressive tax system, and a few "equalizers" in society, such as a public school system, but I'm really not big on a system of means tested welfare as the "safety net" because means tested welfare tends to lock people into poverty. I do agree that there will always be winners and losers, and that it is a matter of balance.

I don't think that either one of us think that we need to destroy our current system and start all over (which is what a lot of radicals on both the left and right believe), we are both fairly moderate, and probably would both agree that what we need is some fining tuning in our system to create that balance that you spoke of. We really aren't far apart our our views at all, I agree with you probably 85% of the time. It's just the finer details that we disagree with at times.
 
In my opinion it is not ok to take money from somebody who has earned to and give it to somebody who has not. We have equal opportunity in this country so the choice of one person should not result in "stealing" from another.

Redistribution of wealth is a complicated issue. In Biblical society, the church was entitled to 10% of the income of every person in the nation, and the church was mandated by scriptures to use that money to care for widows and orphans. I don't think that even the most cold-hearted, tight-fisted conservative is against some form of program like this, whether it be implemented through their own church, or through the government in a secular society such as ours.

Ironically, one of the things Jesus took issue with the Pharisees over during his ministry was a program much like Social Security. Torah dictates that children care for their parents in their old age, but the church created a program that allowed children to pay money to the church to have the church care for those parents.

Other forms of redistribution are more controversial. Most people would agree that completely providing all the needs of a person while asking nothing in return creates a cycle of dependence and entitlement that is unhealthy. On the other hand, even many conservatives approve of programs that promote education and forms of self-improvement that provide "a hand up, not a handout".

My personal opinion is that no entitlement program should be implemented at the federal level. Entitlements are not within the mandate of the Constitution, and even if they were, implementing them at the federal level creates a program that is harder to kill than a flesh eating zombie virus, even when the resulting effects of that program on society are similar. Programs like Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid are based on noble and admirable intentions, but they are so wasteful and inefficient that they are bankrupting our society. If our currency collapses, nobody will be able to afford healthcare, and we will all be so poor we can't support ourselves.

Not that those programs should not exist, mind you. Those programs do good things for society. If state and local governments were to take on those programs, they would likely be able to do so with less bureaucratic overhead, and a greater ability to adapt to the varying needs of the communities they exist in. The result would be either a better program at the same cost, or a lower cost to achieve a similar result to the federal programs.

On balance, I favor redistribution on a very limited basis. I think that all social safety nets should be implemented at the local level. I think that unemployment insurance should require that the worker to work with the employment agency for 8 hours a day, divided between working on projects assigned by the community government, and supervised job seeking/job counseling at the discretion of the job seeker (but at least 50% labor).

I think the only entitlements that should be given without requiring compensation should be school vouchers. I approve of a school voucher system that takes a portion of the funds from wealthy school districts to supplement the funds in poor districts, so that the children of poor families are able to attend any school that they can qualify for on their merits, on an equal footing with the children of wealthy parents (unless the wealthy parents choose to spend additional money beyond the voucher value to send their children to more expensive schools).

I do not believe that education is a right, but I do believe that it is a privilege that yields such an undeniable and consistent return on investment, that no reasonable expense should be spared in making it as accessible as possible.
 
So it's OK for a handful of families to eventually own most everything and for you to own nothing and have to rent everything that you have from those few families?

The key to preventing class conflict is to eliminate the loopholes in the economy that allow individuals to create profits without creating value in exchange.

When you sell a product in a free market, you profit, but so does the other person in the exchange, because they receive a product that increases their quality of life. People like Sam Walton and Bill Gates became wealthy because they developed products and services that improved the quality of life for people. Walton created an improvement in the marketplace that made it easier to shop, and Gates helped usher in the information age.

The problem arises when free market choice and competition can not regulate the market properly. By the same token that Walton and Gates both introduced products and services that were marketable, both also used tactics that unduly pushed out their competition and limited consumer choice. Microsoft gets sued every other Tuesday over its monopolies, and today's Wal-Mart is just pure dagnasty evil (Don't get me started. I've worked there once in my youth).

Better enforcement of Sherman and Clayton anti-trust laws, and additional measures that close loopholes that allow for manipulations of the economy (particularly in the investment and financial sectors) would create an economy where the only way to get filthy stinking rich would be to so dramatically improve the quality of life for society, that nobody would really mind how much money you made doing it, because you did it using equitable free market choice against your competition.

Plus in a system like that, it's impossible to expand to own everything, because the second you developed a monopoly, or your oligopoly got a little too comfy, the government would step in and make sure that you had someone to compete with in good faith (even if it meant splitting your company up and forcing you to compete against yourself).

The reason Marxism is false doctrine is because the class conflict that's supposed to inevitably result in socialism is not even remotely inevitable. Maybe it does if you let laissez faire capitalism go completely unchecked without any feedback to preserve the dynamics of the market economy, but that's because you weren't using a market economy, not because market economies aren't the best way to do things.
 
Psychologists have findings to suggest that how one is built may determine their position on redistribution. The stronger one is built the better the odds that he will not want to redistribute. The weaker one is built the better the odds that he may not resist it. This they link to evolution and the times when the stronger got what they wanted and kept it to themselves. This finding does not applies to women for the same reason of:

over the course of evolutionary history, women had less to gain, and also more to lose, from engaging in direct physical aggression.

References:

Petersen, M. B., Sznycer, D., Sell, A., Cosmides, L., & Tooby, J. (2013). The ancestral logic of politics: Upper-body strength regulates men assertion of self-interest over economic redistribution. Psychological Science, DOI: 10.1177/0956797612466415

Political motivations may have evolutionary links to physical strength
 
I'm not reading the entire thread, but quite simply, theft is theft, fancy words don't change it, and I reserve the right to protect myself and my property from those who would seek to take it from me.

I already explained in another thread why I don't believe that simply having people vote on stealing would be a valid justification for doing so, and have yet to see any compelling arguments to the contrary.
 
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