German guy
DP Veteran
- Joined
- Jun 9, 2010
- Messages
- 5,187
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- 4,255
- Location
- Berlin, Germany
- Gender
- Male
- Political Leaning
- Moderate
First of all, I would appreciate it if this thread didn't become another thread about the evils of Islam, or knee-jerk condemnation of islamophobia. I'm interested in another question: Where do you draw the line between justified upholding of Western values against radical opinions of Muslims, and xenophobic stereotyping that fosters hatred against Muslims?
For the record, I want to say this, and I hope nobody will suggest I didn't say it: I do believe that organized political Islam is a threat to Western societies, so are certain attitudes and opinions held by Muslims in the West, may they stem from religion, tradition, or both. There are Muslims who are very authoritarian, are in favor of restricting freedom of speech, gender equality and some may even want to introduce Sharia law, or support terrorism. It goes without saying that such groups, political, religious or both, are a problem and deserve attention, in some cases prosecution.
But how large is that number? In Germany, there are ca. 4 million Muslims on a population of 80 million. Half of them are German citizens. In a poll among them, 79% said their faith is compatible with the German constitution, 21% said no. That makes roughly 500,000 Muslims in Germany who believe their faith is not compatible with the Constitution (which explicitly defines freedom of speech, of religion and even gender equality). The number of those who actually engage in violence, or violent organizations may even be much lower.
So the problem exists, but it is limited. Neo-Nazism is a problem too: In the 2009 national election, 01.5% of the voters voted for the neo-Nazi party NPD -- assuming ca. 50 million went to vote, that makes a number of ca. 750,000 neo-Nazi sympathizers. The number of active, potentially violent neo-Nazis is estimated at ca. 30,000 in Germany.
So far, Muslims have not even formed a political party that articulates their interests and bundles their opinions for the political process. Let alone the more radical Muslims. Radical islam not politically organized on that scale, they have not even reached this level yet.
So while both threats are indeed a problem, it's still a limited problem, and only concerns the fringes. According groups, both islamist or neo-Nazi, need to be observed and prosecuted, if necessary, IMO.
But it seems to me that 90% of the alleged "Islam criticism" completely overshoots the mark, is not limited to pointing to this threat and dealing with it as it is, but completely blows this problem out of proportion. And I think that's because by far more people are not just considering radical opinions among Muslims a problem, along other extremist opinions like neo-Nazism or violent leftism, but they are deep into chauvinist territory, xenophobia, racism, blind hatred.
Blatant anti-Semitism is no longer considered acceptable (not counting in fringe groups), at least in the mainstream. What's bothering me much more is that so many people fail to apply this lesson to other kinds of chauvinism. They have not taken the lesson that broad generalization, stereotyping and singling out ethnic minorities is the core of the problem, but just that singling out Jews is bad.
When you read many of the rants against Muslims these days, you can see many of them could pass easily as anti-Semite Nazi propaganda, if you just changed "Muslim" for "Jews". Anti-Semitism was bad, because "the Jews did nothing of the kind they were accused of, but Muslims do all these horrible things".
Now of course I agree that criticism of certain religious and traditional opinions and attitudes is justified, especially when it comes to Islam: Radical islamism is definitely a threat for freedom, just like other fringe opinions like neo-Nazism or violent leftism is. Muslim political organizations of that kind, or hate preachers should be prosecuted accordingly, along with neo-Nazis or violent leftism.
But this criticism overshoots the mark 90% of the time. Especially when the threat by islamism is completely blown out of proportion, considered an essential threat to Europe/the West, rather than a fringe problem?
"They'll breed us out", "take over to establish a califate", "introduce Sharia law"? When they make not even 5% of the population, 80% of which even believe their faith is compatible with our constitution? WTF? Which world are they living in?
As explained, violent neo-Nazis are ca. 30,000 out of 80 million, their sympathizers maybe up to 750,000. And why would people feel inclined to invest so much attention and emotion into writing hateful rants and conspiracy theories about them, as do many about Muslims? Neither of them has the capacity to pose an existential threat to our political system and way of life so far.
It seems hating Muslims has become a fetish for many. I'm no psychologist, but I'd guess there are some serious issues involved, in these cases.
And it's not unlike the rabid paranoia and persecution complex that was behind anti-Semitism among the Nazis back then. Reminds me of that one passage from "Mein Kampf", when Hitler writes how he walks through the streets and keeps seeing "Jews" everywhere, as if "Jewishness" was an invisible force manifesting in all kind of harmless phenomena -- if there was not the according historical context, it would read like satire, the confessions of a deeply disturbed man ridden with paranoia and severe psychological issues. The explanations of certain islamophobes ("My street doesn't look anymore as if I was in Germany, it looks like little Istanbul!") read almost the same.
90% of the "Islam criticism" these days seems to be driven by the same mechanisms and issues: It's not about enlightenment and defending Western values, it's about petty hatred of the alien, just like the anti-Semitism of the neo-Nazi fringe, or "traditional" racism. It's just as shrill, paranoid and regularly blows the threat out of proportion. And most of the time, it's just venting hatred, not offering constructive ideas, and thus no valuable contribution to debate, but hateful incitement to rally up lynch mobs at best.
There have been several arson attacks against mosques last year in Berlin already. I believe that's just the tip of the iceberg of islamophobia, the everyday xenophobia is probably much higher. I blame the fact that so many people blow the threat by radical Islam out of proportion, and that islamophobic hatred has become acceptable.
When neo-Nazis run around beating up African immigrants, or radical Muslims ran around attacking cartoonists, journalists or Jewish people, that's bad enough. We don't need to add native islamophobes to that mix, who ran around beating Muslims or setting mosques on fire. IMHO.
Thoughts?
For the record, I want to say this, and I hope nobody will suggest I didn't say it: I do believe that organized political Islam is a threat to Western societies, so are certain attitudes and opinions held by Muslims in the West, may they stem from religion, tradition, or both. There are Muslims who are very authoritarian, are in favor of restricting freedom of speech, gender equality and some may even want to introduce Sharia law, or support terrorism. It goes without saying that such groups, political, religious or both, are a problem and deserve attention, in some cases prosecution.
But how large is that number? In Germany, there are ca. 4 million Muslims on a population of 80 million. Half of them are German citizens. In a poll among them, 79% said their faith is compatible with the German constitution, 21% said no. That makes roughly 500,000 Muslims in Germany who believe their faith is not compatible with the Constitution (which explicitly defines freedom of speech, of religion and even gender equality). The number of those who actually engage in violence, or violent organizations may even be much lower.
So the problem exists, but it is limited. Neo-Nazism is a problem too: In the 2009 national election, 01.5% of the voters voted for the neo-Nazi party NPD -- assuming ca. 50 million went to vote, that makes a number of ca. 750,000 neo-Nazi sympathizers. The number of active, potentially violent neo-Nazis is estimated at ca. 30,000 in Germany.
So far, Muslims have not even formed a political party that articulates their interests and bundles their opinions for the political process. Let alone the more radical Muslims. Radical islam not politically organized on that scale, they have not even reached this level yet.
So while both threats are indeed a problem, it's still a limited problem, and only concerns the fringes. According groups, both islamist or neo-Nazi, need to be observed and prosecuted, if necessary, IMO.
But it seems to me that 90% of the alleged "Islam criticism" completely overshoots the mark, is not limited to pointing to this threat and dealing with it as it is, but completely blows this problem out of proportion. And I think that's because by far more people are not just considering radical opinions among Muslims a problem, along other extremist opinions like neo-Nazism or violent leftism, but they are deep into chauvinist territory, xenophobia, racism, blind hatred.
Blatant anti-Semitism is no longer considered acceptable (not counting in fringe groups), at least in the mainstream. What's bothering me much more is that so many people fail to apply this lesson to other kinds of chauvinism. They have not taken the lesson that broad generalization, stereotyping and singling out ethnic minorities is the core of the problem, but just that singling out Jews is bad.
When you read many of the rants against Muslims these days, you can see many of them could pass easily as anti-Semite Nazi propaganda, if you just changed "Muslim" for "Jews". Anti-Semitism was bad, because "the Jews did nothing of the kind they were accused of, but Muslims do all these horrible things".
Now of course I agree that criticism of certain religious and traditional opinions and attitudes is justified, especially when it comes to Islam: Radical islamism is definitely a threat for freedom, just like other fringe opinions like neo-Nazism or violent leftism is. Muslim political organizations of that kind, or hate preachers should be prosecuted accordingly, along with neo-Nazis or violent leftism.
But this criticism overshoots the mark 90% of the time. Especially when the threat by islamism is completely blown out of proportion, considered an essential threat to Europe/the West, rather than a fringe problem?
"They'll breed us out", "take over to establish a califate", "introduce Sharia law"? When they make not even 5% of the population, 80% of which even believe their faith is compatible with our constitution? WTF? Which world are they living in?
As explained, violent neo-Nazis are ca. 30,000 out of 80 million, their sympathizers maybe up to 750,000. And why would people feel inclined to invest so much attention and emotion into writing hateful rants and conspiracy theories about them, as do many about Muslims? Neither of them has the capacity to pose an existential threat to our political system and way of life so far.
It seems hating Muslims has become a fetish for many. I'm no psychologist, but I'd guess there are some serious issues involved, in these cases.
And it's not unlike the rabid paranoia and persecution complex that was behind anti-Semitism among the Nazis back then. Reminds me of that one passage from "Mein Kampf", when Hitler writes how he walks through the streets and keeps seeing "Jews" everywhere, as if "Jewishness" was an invisible force manifesting in all kind of harmless phenomena -- if there was not the according historical context, it would read like satire, the confessions of a deeply disturbed man ridden with paranoia and severe psychological issues. The explanations of certain islamophobes ("My street doesn't look anymore as if I was in Germany, it looks like little Istanbul!") read almost the same.
90% of the "Islam criticism" these days seems to be driven by the same mechanisms and issues: It's not about enlightenment and defending Western values, it's about petty hatred of the alien, just like the anti-Semitism of the neo-Nazi fringe, or "traditional" racism. It's just as shrill, paranoid and regularly blows the threat out of proportion. And most of the time, it's just venting hatred, not offering constructive ideas, and thus no valuable contribution to debate, but hateful incitement to rally up lynch mobs at best.
There have been several arson attacks against mosques last year in Berlin already. I believe that's just the tip of the iceberg of islamophobia, the everyday xenophobia is probably much higher. I blame the fact that so many people blow the threat by radical Islam out of proportion, and that islamophobic hatred has become acceptable.
When neo-Nazis run around beating up African immigrants, or radical Muslims ran around attacking cartoonists, journalists or Jewish people, that's bad enough. We don't need to add native islamophobes to that mix, who ran around beating Muslims or setting mosques on fire. IMHO.
Thoughts?
