have you noticed?

jambalaya said:

I like how people ignore nuance when it suits them. There is a knee jerk reaction to defend Muslims by liberals simply because conservatives have generally taken up the cause against the Muslim religion as regards our security and well being. Anti-Muslim sentiment rallies the conservative base and liberals try to mute that kind of response. There is definitely not a like response to protect or speak out for Christians to be who they want to be. In fact there are liberals I debate with all the time who are very anti-religious who are much more protective of Muslims rights. It is a political thing and not a religious thing for a lot of liberals.

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There isn't rabid protest, and weeks of news coverage against Christians building a place of worship.

Your Star said:

No it's not. I don't care if 90% of the country hates how I live. As long as I can marry, adopt kids, and live just as equally under the law as they do.

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OK...so see...we disagree...OK. ME...I hope you live...love...and find happiness. I dont care what you do but I disagree that its right.

Tucker Case said:

Absolutley. Any video is a sample. But it's not possible to claim that it is a representative sample.

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WHich is why I have NEVEWR said it is ALL Muslims or even MOST. I merely maintain it is a very significant amount, and that those Muslims NOT ideological alligned dont do enough from within to change it. And believe me...I understand why. Again...spent a pretty significant amount of time with them in their backyard working WITH them...sharing meals, tea, and the hookah with them.

VanceMack said:

OK...so see...we disagree...OK. ME...I hope you live...love...and find happiness. I dont care what you do but I disagree that its right.

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But I'm hoping your disagreement doesn't extend to a belief that the government should stop me from adopting, or getting legally married. Just like my believe that you not liking homosexuality shouldn't stopped by the government.

Your Star said:

There isn't rabid protest, and weeks of news coverage against Christians building a place of worship.

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Christians didn't run any planes into the Twin Towers either. Details matter.

X Factor said:

Christians didn't run any planes into the Twin Towers either. Details matter.

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Neither did American muslims, in fact American muslims died on that day as well. Which is what stopping that mosque from being built would affect. All the details matter, not just ones you want to cherry pick.

Gardener said:

There are certainly many of these hypocrites who fit the bill, as should be obvious to any who read political forums. They are as obvious as are those who view being a conservative in terms of identity politics, and preface just about everything they say with some broad-brushed swipe at "liberals".

What very few people seem to realize at all, however, is how these people resemble each other more than they resemble actual liberals or actual conservatives as their views are based upon little beyond the regurgitation of dogma rather than the understanding of political principles.

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Frankly I think most extremists that only take one side are absolutely not committed to the side they take...they are bitter angry pissed off people that CANT/WONT SEE the other side.
We ALL have our issues and I know I have my not so stellar moments as well. USUALLY it depends on the issue and thats the thrust of my comment towards Tucker...pick a thread...ANY thread...and if it lasts more than a few posts it is because people DISAGREE. SOMETIMES though...there are a pretty significant group...and yes...conservatives as well as liberal...that are myopic and blinded by ideology.

Gardener said:

And it is also very pervasive, which is a characteristic some people wish to hide.

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The face that it is very persuasive is one of the main reasons I'm trying to point out the flaws in allowing it to persuade one's views.

A very large majority of Pakistanis, Jordanians and Egyptians believe in stoning people for adultery as well as killing people who leave Islam, for instance. These are not moderate views, yet any attempt to highlight them or heaven forbid, try to criticize them is met with nothing but attacks by those who have simply decided to defend.

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A more effective argument for this is actually citing the numbers, instead of just showing videos and claiming that it is a majority. then, showing that the causal factor is Islam instead of other factors is useful for making a legitimate case that it is Islam itself that is the problem, as opposed to other potential factors.

Unfortunately, those kinds of arguments seem to be few and far between. Most of the argumetns I encounter ignore any other potential factors and fail to cite actual numbers that support their claims.

The problem here is that people have created a sacred cow when it comes to the criticism of Islam, and those who have done so do not act this way with Christianity, Judaism or any other religion.

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Various people have a created a sacred cow when it comes to criticism of all religions.

Unfortunately, most people are hypocritical or inconsistent in their criticisms. They excuse the negatives of their own or those that they find paletable, while decrying the negatives of those religions they disagree with or find unpalletable.

Also, most peopel ignore otehr factors that lead to variance between people of the different religions in favor of hyper-focussing on the religious differences.

In order to "fix" the problem, a full analysis of the variables is required. If legitimate causal factors for the variance are ignored, then even if the religion were completely obliterated, the problems would still exist, just in a different form.

Your Star said:

Neither did American muslims, in fact American muslims died on that day as well. Which is what stopping that mosque from being built would affect. All the details matter, not just ones you want to cherry pick.

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And do you know that many American Muslims oppose the Ground Zero mosque because they recognize the statement that would make?

Your Star said:

But I'm hoping your disagreement doesn't extend to a belief that the government should stop me from adopting, or getting legally married. Just like my believe that you not liking homosexuality shouldn't stopped by the government.

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Im sorry but thats an area that we just disagree on. And should it reach the ballot I will vote my belief system and you will vote yours. And should the day ever come where it is legally changed from the current societal norm, well...the good news is that Im not going to freak out, picket, send hate mail, or attempt to terrorize you in any way shape or form. I will continue to live my life and my feelings towards you will not change in the least.

Your Star said:

There isn't rabid protest, and weeks of news coverage against Christians building a place of worship.

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Actually, not only is that not true its not even the half of it. Not only do people protest new Christian facilities (ask Mormons if people protest their building temples) but hell, you have people protesting the mere existence of crosses or religous symbology on highways marking the location of deceased state troopers.

VanceMack said:

Im sorry but thats an area that we just disagree on. And should it reach the ballot I will vote my belief system and you will vote yours. And should the day ever come where it is legally changed from the current societal norm, well...the good news is that Im not going to freak out, picket, send hate mail, or attempt to terrorize you in any way shape or form. I will continue to live my life and my feelings towards you will not change in the least.

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So in theory you should have no problem of people wanting to enact, an anti-bigotry law. In which all references to homosexuality in a negative light will be punished by law. Some libertarian you are :roll:

VanceMack said:

Actually, not only is that not true its not even the half of it. Not only do people protest new Christian facilities (ask Mormons if people protest their building temples) but hell, you have people protesting the mere existence of crosses or religous symbology on highways marking the location of deceased state troopers.

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Ohhhh, good point.

X Factor said:

And do you know that many American Muslims oppose the Ground Zero mosque because they recognize the statement that would make?

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Doesn't change that legally it is well within their right to build there, and anyone wanting the government to do something about it is taking a dangerous step into the government being able to outlaw all religion.

Your Star said:

There isn't rabid protest, and weeks of news coverage against Christians building a place of worship.

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I am unaware of the 1500 year pattern of Christians erecting huge religious structures on the grounds of the destroyed monuments of their vanquished enemies as a symbol of the conquering Christian fellowship.

VanceMack said:

Actually, not only is that not true its not even the half of it. Not only do people protest new Christian facilities (ask Mormons if people protest their building temples) but hell, you have people protesting the mere existence of crosses or religous symbology on highways marking the location of deceased state troopers.

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Crosses on public land, paid by our tax dollars I disagree with(and I'm a Christian), and I've never heard of anyone protesting a new church. Now it probably has happened, but I doubt it is on par with protest against mosques. Though, both of those things are wrong, and I'm not about to get into a dick measuring contest with you.

Your Star said:

Doesn't change that legally it is well within their right to build there, and anyone wanting the government to do something about it is taking a dangerous step into the government being able to outlaw all religion.

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You're making a slippery slope argument. I thought liberals hated those. We're talking about one mosque being put on the site where thousands of people were killed in the name of Islam. A very unique situation, don't you think?

Your Star said:

So in theory you should have no problem of people wanting to enact, an anti-bigotry law. In which all references to homosexuality in a negative light will be punished by law. Some libertarian you are :roll:

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Star...we've already established Im not a mindless robotic 'Libertarian' and therefore not a 'real' libertarian. So that little ploy is as ineffective as calling me a homophobe. 1-Im not, and 2-words and labels dont scare me or make me change my mind in a rush to public acceptance.
You see the existing societal standard as an anti-bigotry law. I disagree. I still manage to maintain a respectful attitude toward you without calling you names and questioning your character, despite our disagreement. Do with that what you will. But yes...I believe changing the marriage laws is wrong...just as I believe it is wrong to change those laws for other groups that wnat them changed.

Gardener said:

I am unaware of the 1500 year pattern of Christians erecting huge religious structures on the grounds of the destroyed monuments of their vanquished enemies as a symbol of the conquering Christian fellowship.

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You mean you've never heard of the early Catholic Church, the Holy Roman Empire, hell most of early European history :lol:

Yes muslims in that time period were quite vicious also. But don't act like it's a one way street.

Your Star said:

Doesn't change that legally it is well within their right to build there, and anyone wanting the government to do something about it is taking a dangerous step into the government being able to outlaw all religion.

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Maybe its not bigotry...maybe its all about that marketing ideal; location, location, location...

X Factor said:

You're making a slippery slope argument. I thought liberals hated those. We're talking about one mosque being put on the site where thousands of people were killed in the name of Islam. A very unique situation, don't you think?

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I don't like to play around with the government telling people they can't worship here, or there, and other similar acts. It leads to quickly to tyranny. Best government, and religion didn't mix. At all.

TC -

The Religions themselves are a different entity from the people who practice these religions. Religions are not fundamentally affected by cultural factors. The way that religions are actively practiced is affected by cultural factors.

One must look at religious texts in order to acertain if the religion itself is the causal factor for variance if one's argument is "The difference between the regions is religion" (Hint: look at the third sentence in OP in this thread to see why my comparison is 100% valid).

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Hmm.. Still not seeing it Tucker. You keep referring to "cultural" as evidence of diversion from fundamental text. I find this somewhat dubious. Fundamentally, all of the three major religions follow one single precept, that is, that there is one God. From there, men wrote, interpreted, and practiced the text, which I would assume you agree is all a matter of culture, to the extent that, the way one follows God into heaven, is a matter of interpretation of the text written by men, who themselves were "cultured"; yet by itself is not a reason to claim what you did.

You are again confusing beliefs of the practitioners of a religion with the religion itself. Simply because modern Christians have cherry-picked which portions of their religious texts to adhere to is no reason to ignore the similarities between texts. My argument is about the factors that lead to the variance in practice.

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There are similarities indeed, but there are similarities between recipes for pea soup, so what. The variances you claim are cultural are not necessarily so. There are differences of opinion as to the true book of God in all the major religions. These differences of opinion are based off historical interpretations and their significance, I would not call them cultural, I would label them contemporaneous. Culture denotes a vague staple in your argument.

In a fundamental way, the religions ARE the same. It's what happens afterward that makes the differences in the views held by modern practitioners. But fundamentally (as defined by their fundamental texts) they are identical when it comes to the subject of homosexuality.

It don't get any more "fundamental" than the religious texts

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Well, again I'm no bible scholar, so you'll forgive me if I ask you for specific reference to where the 3 major religions all view homosexuality the same way, with specific emphasis on putting them all to death. I grant you that Judaism, and Christianity to my knowledge all agree that homosexuality is a scourge, but quite different to wanting the all dead. You mentioned a passage Leviticus earlier (Sorry to lazy to look) but isn't Leviticus located in the Old Testament?

Whether or not you think you are confsued has no real bearing on whether or not you actually are.

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Not confused just being a stickler for the finer details of your argument. You claim a vague reference to culture being responsible for the differences in religions as time goes by. To some extent this is true, although you haven't defined exactly the what, where and how's, but my argument stems from the fact that you lump all the major religions together when referring to their fundamental beliefs. I don't see it that way..


Tim-

VanceMack said:

Star...we've already established Im not a mindless robotic 'Libertarian' and therefore not a 'real' libertarian. So that little ploy is as ineffective as calling me a homophobe. 1-Im not, and 2-words and labels dont scare me or make me change my mind in a rush to public acceptance.
You see the existing societal standard as an anti-bigotry law. I disagree. I still manage to maintain a respectful attitude toward you without calling you names and questioning your character, despite our disagreement. Do with that what you will. But yes...I believe changing the marriage laws is wrong...just as I believe it is wrong to change those laws for other groups that wnat them changed.

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So you are against Loving v Virginia I assume.

Your Star said:

Crosses on public land, paid by our tax dollars I disagree with(and I'm a Christian), and I've never heard of anyone protesting a new church. Now it probably has happened, but I doubt it is on par with protest against mosques. Though, both of those things are wrong, and I'm not about to get into a dick measuring contest with you.

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aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand yet you brought up the Mosque...

VanceMack said:

Maybe its not bigotry...maybe its all about that marketing ideal; location, location, location...

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So Americans dying because some people hate our beliefs, and way of life is enough reason to deny people a fundamental part of our beliefs, and rights? You do that and they just win. I prefer to not let the terrorist win.