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Social security reform

middleagedgamer

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Mandatory spending accounts for about 90% of tax revenue. That means that, if we balanced the budget without raising taxes, we would have to cut optional spending down to just barely enough to exist at all, much less carry out their duties.

However, one thing we can do to lower our social security bill is to crack down on abuse of that system. The first ever episode of Family Guy shows a prime example of welfare abuse.

Now, don't get me wrong; there are some honest, legitimate uses of welfare.

To provide the basic necessities when your part-time job simply cannot.
When you just had a kid, and can't go to work without risking health, or leaving your child unattended.
Some people, in this economy, are using their welfare money as a nest egg in this economy, but are still trying to find real jobs.

However, there are some out there who's admitted career goal is to simply have as many children as possible so that they can get more money from the state. No! No no ****ing no!

First and foremost, we need to make provisions in the social security laws that outlaw welfare money when the otherwise-qualified applicant has no good reason for not trying to become a productive member of society, other than their expectations that social security will pay for it.

Also, even if you are a legitimate, honest applicant, and not just an Octomom, even then, you should only get just barely 100% of the poverty level.

Octomom has 15 people in her household (herself, and 14 kids), so even if she gets to keep her welfare check, her income will go from $120,000 to $63,190, and not a cent more, according to this chart right here:

FY 2009/2010 Federal Poverty Guidelines - LIHEAP Clearinghouse

That's a cut of over 47%; imagine if we did that across the board, how much we could save? The 2010 budget allocates $695 billion to social security; if we do this kind of cut across the board, our social security bill will be reduced to a little bit over $400 billion (single-person households typically make about $9,000 a year, so this will require a bit of an increase for them), which means that we're saving over $200 billion.

Also, these benefits will apply to everyone, indiscriminately, based only on their deficit of income-to-poverty level. If Octomom gets a job that pays $50,000 a year, her benefits are reduced to $13,190 a year. However, even if you're an individual household, with no disabilities and no minority classes, you can still qualify to be reimbursed up to the poverty level. Having your qualification of social security based solely on income can save tremendously on administration costs. Also, the burden of proof will lie on the applicants to prove that they qualify.

Not only will we reduce the deficit by $2-300 billion, but this will encourage even state-bums like Octomom to get off their butt and find a job, because the nest egg that social security provides is just that: A nest egg, as in, it's not supposed to be relied upon; it's supposed to help you out in your time of need, but only in your time of need.

Thoughts?
 
How about allowing people to invest their SS money into Interest bearing Bonds or Long term savings accounts. Instead of wealth redistribution.

Some people genuinely need this welfare money; I gave three examples.

We can still reduce our social security bill without having to annihilate it.
 
we should also eliminate the cap on income subject to social security withholding

how would you identify the members of this group such that you would not also eliminate those who should be entitled to benefits?:
we need to make provisions in the social security laws that outlaw welfare money when the otherwise-qualified applicant has no good reason for not trying to become a productive member of society, other than their expectations that social security will pay for it.
 
we should also eliminate the cap on income subject to social security withholding

how would you identify the members of this group such that you would not also eliminate those who should be entitled to benefits?:

The person's motives can be decided on a case-by-case basis, and only the Social Security board of appeals can override the initial person's decision that your motives are ulterior in nature.

Just how applicants of a tourist visa are guilty until proven innocent of trying to abandon their home country, the burden would likewise lie on the social security applicants to prove that their motives are not ulterior in nature.
 
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The person's motives can be decided on a case-by-case basis, and only the Social Security board of appeals can override the initial person's decision that your motives are ulterior in nature.

Just how applicants of a tourist visa are guilty until proven innocent of trying to abandon their home country, the burden would likewise lie on the social security applicants to prove that their motives are not ulterior in nature.

so one bureaucrat gets to subjectively decide whether the applicant is deserving
having been there first hand to hear the assistant US attorney explain that there was an explicit directive issued to do everything possible to deny requests for physical disability benefits in the early 80's causes me to wonder if such a rigged system could also be the result for designating the recipients of these benefits
 
so one bureaucrat gets to subjectively decide whether the applicant is deserving
You will have the chance to appeal the decision.

having been there first hand to hear the assistant US attorney explain that there was an explicit directive issued to do everything possible to deny requests for physical disability benefits in the early 80's causes me to wonder if such a rigged system could also be the result for designating the recipients of these benefits
Fair enough. How about this instead:

The following can potentially be used as evidence:

1. If they around town saying "It's ok, I don't need a job; I have social security."
2. If they've been on the program for years and years; it would warrant at least an audit, a la tax evasion suspects.
3. Every year or so, they must fill out a questionnaire justifying why they should still receive benefits. Inconsistent answers will create suspicion.

Also, that still doesn't explain how we can't simply slash benefits right down to the poverty level, and not a cent more, Octomom-style. If we do that, not only will we reduce abuse of the system (since it's not as reliable as it used to be), then we can also eliminate things like food stamps, HUD apartment aid, etc., since the "poverty-reimbursement program" will provide them enough to make it, and, therefore, save on administration on those programs.
 
You will have the chance to appeal the decision.
i could live with a well defined system where a decision could be objectively made to the extent practicable. one where the initial decision was subject to 'the rule of two' where two employees, one higher graded 'approving official' than the other 'recommending official' would have to approve or deny the application jointly - based on those well defined criteria. if theirs was a split decision the third, most senior official would have to make the call. which could still be appealed


Fair enough. How about this instead:

The following can potentially be used as evidence:

1. If they around town saying "It's ok, I don't need a job; I have social security."
that seems a very low bar, and one frought with the potential for abuse. heresay is often not very reliable evidence
i can smell the teabaggers lining up - and very willing to testify that every applicant (who is not a reich wing republican) had been heard to utter such a statement

If they've been on the program for years and years; it would warrant at least an audit, a la tax evasion suspects.
i like the idea of periodic audits - preferably, ones with no advance notice
wonder if you recall one of the first acts of the dicknbush regime was to eliminate the majority of the tax auditor positions at IRS. those people returned 42 times their annual wages, benefits and overhead expense to the US treasury. but because the wealthy folks who were made to pay their fair tax obligation objected to having to pay their fair share, this elimination of most of the auditors effectively eliminated their objections. but since welfare recipients are not likely rich campaign contributors, this situation should not be expected to be repeated

3. Every year or so, they must fill out a questionnaire justifying why they should still receive benefits. Inconsistent answers will create suspicion.
in my federal career doling our uncle sam's money, we were prohibited from informing the IRS when we found that the applicant was under-reporting their income. seems strange that we would knowingly loan federal money to someone we found was being dishonest with another arm of the federal government, the IRS
pointing this out to indicate that the auditor would need access to all pertinent data availble within the government's systems of records. that is not the circumstance now

Also, that still doesn't explain how we can't simply slash benefits right down to the poverty level, and not a cent more, Octomom-style.
on one hand, i recognize that we would be saying to those who need public assistance thru no fault of their own that they can have a standard of living which does not exceed the poverty level. but realistically, we do not need to incentivize the program so that individuals will seek to qualify for it. which incentivization, i would suggest, is the largest part of today's problem with public benefits

If we do that, not only will we reduce abuse of the system (since it's not as reliable as it used to be), then we can also eliminate things like food stamps, HUD apartment aid, etc., since the "poverty-reimbursement program" will provide them enough to make it, and, therefore, save on administration on those programs.
maybe you save on administration. but whether the public benefit is provided as a lump sum or in discrete allotments for food, housing, medical i don't know that real savings would be realized ... other than from the exclusion of those who do not qualify who are now receiving benefits

i don't disagree with your premise. it bothers me that young women in lower economic conditions intentionally have children out of wedlock so that they can qualify for their own federally funded housing and a monthly benefit check. we now are seeing third and fourth generations who know little more about earning a living other than going to the mail box to get the federal check the first week of the month

but much of the welfare benefits is intended for the children born into poverty where the baby mama and baby daddy have no realistic expectations to be able to raise that child in an adequate environment without federal benefits
for the childrens' benefit we give the check to that single parent who has already exhibited irresponsible behavior
but if we do not fund the childrens' welfare thru that check how do we do it otherwise?
 
Some people genuinely need this welfare money; I gave three examples.

We can still reduce our social security bill without having to annihilate it.

People who need welfare should continue to recieve it. Just allow people to really save money, in a way thats transpernt in a way were they earn some sort of interest on the money. Instead of giving it to Uncle sam to use as Pork.
 
that seems a very low bar, and one frought with the potential for abuse. heresay is often not very reliable evidence
Hearsay is not reliable as evidence, but camera footage is!

i can smell the teabaggers lining up - and very willing to testify that every applicant (who is not a reich wing republican) had been heard to utter such a statement
1. it's "right-wing," not "reich wing."
2. Teabagging: Sticking your ballsack into the mouth, or around the mouth or neck, of a sexual partner.

What does this have to do with that?

i like the idea of periodic audits - preferably, ones with no advance notice
Sorry, that's against the 4th Amendment.

wonder if you recall one of the first acts of the dicknbush regime was to eliminate the majority of the tax auditor positions at IRS. those people returned 42 times their annual wages, benefits and overhead expense to the US treasury. but because the wealthy folks who were made to pay their fair tax obligation objected to having to pay their fair share, this elimination of most of the auditors effectively eliminated their objections. but since welfare recipients are not likely rich campaign contributors, this situation should not be expected to be repeated
Don't change the subject. We're not talking about taxes; we're talking about welfare.

in my federal career doling our uncle sam's money, we were prohibited from informing the IRS when we found that the applicant was under-reporting their income. seems strange that we would knowingly loan federal money to someone we found was being dishonest with another arm of the federal government, the IRS
pointing this out to indicate that the auditor would need access to all pertinent data availble within the government's systems of records. that is not the circumstance now
Do you think I condone that policy? That's just another part of the whole "reform" process.

on one hand, i recognize that we would be saying to those who need public assistance thru no fault of their own that they can have a standard of living which does not exceed the poverty level. but realistically, we do not need to incentivize the program so that individuals will seek to qualify for it. which incentivization, i would suggest, is the largest part of today's problem with public benefits
Exactly, hence why I'm pitching the idea of reducing it to the poverty level.

maybe you save on administration. but whether the public benefit is provided as a lump sum or in discrete allotments for food, housing, medical i don't know that real savings would be realized ... other than from the exclusion of those who do not qualify who are now receiving benefits
Let me put it this way:

An individual has a poverty level of $10,830 a year (that's $7,090 flat, plus $3,740 for each person). That's $902.50 per month.

SSI will get them $674 a month. That knocks their "poverty deficit" for lack of a better term down to $288.50 per month.

HUD apartment aid can knock out their apartment's rent, which typically goes for more than $300 a month, even for an efficiency, and even in the cheapest of communities.

By giving them exactly the poverty level, and not a cent more, we are actually giving them less, overall, in terms of actual value of the benefits. Also, they would qualify for medicaid, due to them having low income, so health care would be absolutely free.

Not only that, but the Food Stamp Office, and the Housing Office, can be shut down and mortgaged off to private enterprises who pledge to create jobs.

but much of the welfare benefits is intended for the children born into poverty where the baby mama and baby daddy have no realistic expectations to be able to raise that child in an adequate environment without federal benefits
I understand that we should not punish the children for their parents' wrongdoing; that's why I want to reduce it to exactly the poverty level, period, so that the kids can still be provided for.

If the parents squander that money on beer and cigarettes, we can take the kids away to orphanages.
 
Keep in mind that the poverty level does not always keep you qualified for medicaid. In Texas, for instance, the threshold is like 25% of FPL if you're unmarried and have no children.
 
Hearsay is not reliable as evidence, but camera footage is!
that would certainly be more credible ... but how frequently could you expect it to be made available


1. it's "right-wing," not "reich wing."
if only you were correct
2. Teabagging: Sticking your ballsack into the mouth, or around the mouth or neck, of a sexual partner.

What does this have to do with that?
you must have been away from the media for the past 18+ months
teabaggers are these scribed lilly white nuts who gather together at rallies to express their dissatisfaction with the results of the regime they voted in the previous eight years
they hung that name on themselves btw
teabaggers are the spawn of the marketing division at faux news
you can recognize them by their double digit IQs and an inclination to have no idea about what they are for; but they do possess an ability to recite the faux news/RNC talking points against democrats, taxes, government and Obama. they are the boastful ignorant who are exploited by conservative corporate lobbyists, the RNC and faux news - its propaganda arm
these are the people who consistently vote against their self interest because they are too dim to understand that is what they have been conditioned to do
glad to be able to describe them for your benefit

Sorry, that's against the 4th Amendment.
here, let me help you learn what the 4th amendment actually says:
Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
no one would be subjected to search and seizure. they would be subjected to a voluntary audit. one, which if declined, would cause the recipient to lose all federal benefits the audit is intended to document are deserved
the choice is that of the recipient
notice how that in no way violates the 4th amendment

Don't change the subject. We're not talking about taxes; we're talking about welfare.
you must have missed the part where i was talking about the government's use of auditors in the conduct of its federal business. which comment was in direct reply to your discussion about the application of an audit of the beneficiaries of the federal welfare funds
go read it again and see if you can't identify the nexus

Do you think I condone that policy? That's just another part of the whole "reform" process.
so, we agree that the federal rules will have to be revised to allow all federal investigators access to all federal systems of records (which are not classified)

Exactly, hence why I'm pitching the idea of reducing it to the poverty level.
when i read below, it appears you are now modifying your position to offer benefits which are below the defined poverty limits. i don't agree with that reduction; however, you also add the medical benefit without adding that to the sum used to compare against the poverty index


Let me put it this way:

An individual has a poverty level of $10,830 a year (that's $7,090 flat, plus $3,740 for each person). That's $902.50 per month.

SSI will get them $674 a month. That knocks their "poverty deficit" for lack of a better term down to $288.50 per month.

HUD apartment aid can knock out their apartment's rent, which typically goes for more than $300 a month, even for an efficiency, and even in the cheapest of communities.

By giving them exactly the poverty level, and not a cent more, we are actually giving them less, overall, in terms of actual value of the benefits. Also, they would qualify for medicaid, due to them having low income, so health care would be absolutely free.
you have now confused me (easily done) by indicating health benefits will be provided without application of those benefits against the poverty threshold. which new math would appear to potentially provide total benefits having greater value than the poverty level
notice how you seem to be unable to define the changes due to the complexity of the program and the monies that are used to establish the poverty index

Not only that, but the Food Stamp Office, and the Housing Office, can be shut down and mortgaged off to private enterprises who pledge to create jobs.
you operate under the assumption that the facilities housing those federal branches are owned by the federal government. the GSA may own some of them, but i am willing to bet that the vast majority are under lease. which lease payments and operating costs would be saved at the conclusion of the lease period
just so you know, federally acquired property, which is sold as surplus, is sold to the highest bidder, regardless of the employement gains the buyer commits to generating. i will stop here to prevent you from accusing me to further derailing your thread ... but do also recognize that i am only responding to your statement about the requirement of the private buyers to create jobs

I understand that we should not punish the children for their parents' wrongdoing; that's why I want to reduce it to exactly the poverty level, period, so that the kids can still be provided for.
you seem to think that the single parent who had an out of wedlock child to become entitled to her own government funded dwelling and monthly check is going to now act responsibly toward her child when spending the limited monthly federal stipend. is that a reasonable expectation?

If the parents squander that money on beer and cigarettes, we can take the kids away to orphanages.
can't wait to see how you would do this. it should be more fun than how you are going to designate those who are entitled to receive welfare benefits
 
i could live with a well defined system where a decision could be objectively made to the extent practicable. one where the initial decision was subject to 'the rule of two' where two employees, one higher graded 'approving official' than the other 'recommending official' would have to approve or deny the application jointly - based on those well defined criteria. if theirs was a split decision the third, most senior official would have to make the call. which could still be appealed

Primary problem: Lawyers. There are lawyers who specialize in this. This is one of the reasons abuse has increased over the past few years.

i
but because the wealthy folks who were made to pay their fair tax obligation objected to having to pay their fair share, this elimination of most of the auditors effectively eliminated their objections.

Exactly what do you consider a "fair share"?
 
that seems a very low bar, and one frought with the potential for abuse. heresay is often not very reliable evidence
i can smell the teabaggers lining up - and very willing to testify that every applicant (who is not a reich wing republican) had been heard to utter such a statement

That's absurd.:roll:
 
Primary problem: Lawyers. There are lawyers who specialize in this. This is one of the reasons abuse has increased over the past few years.
yep. all those people on the dole going out and hiring high dollar attorneys to represent them in these matters
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Exactly what do you consider a "fair share"?
since the federal auditors were realizing recoveries as a direct result of their efforts which amounted to 42 times the cost to employ those auditirs, i can comfortably state that many of those who were audited were then found to have paid less than their fair share
 
That's absurd.:roll:

that was my belief too, that something as unConstitutional as restricting people to a "free speech" zone was an absurd possibility. but we know it happened on the dicknbush watch

when it comes to teabaggers and their bigoted cohort, fueled by a reich wing oriented faux news to coordinate their activities, anticipating orchestrated opposition against welfare applicants is not that far fetched
 
yep. all those people on the dole going out and hiring high dollar attorneys to represent them in these matters
sarcasmx.gif

They don't have to dole out money. The lawyers take the cases on a contingency basis.
 
They don't have to dole out money. The lawyers take the cases on a contingency basis.

and if they are able to prove that the applicant IS entitled to benefits, how is that a bad thing?
 
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