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The C.I.A. in Double Jeopardy

RightinNYC

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Great op-ed discussing the DoJ's decision to investigate the CIA.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/30/opinion/30finder.html?_r=1&pagewanted=print

EARLY in 2002, Eric Holder, then a former deputy attorney general, said on CNN that the detainees being held at Guantánamo Bay were “not, in fact, people entitled to the protection of the Geneva Convention,” particularly “given the way in which they have conducted themselves.”

Six years later, declaring that “Guantánamo Bay is an international embarrassment,” Mr. Holder said, “I never thought I would see the day when ... the Supreme Court would have to order the president of the United States to treat detainees in accordance with the Geneva Convention.”

So what changed?

A lot of things, of course, but most of all, our national political climate. Reeling from the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, many on the front lines of the war against terrorism felt a sense of fear and urgency that, years later, it’s hard for some to recall. Now, the attacks receding into the past, a lot of us see things in a different light.

Certainly Mr. Holder, now the attorney general, does. Last week he announced the appointment of a career prosecutor, John Durham, to review a dozen or so cases of abuses inflicted upon detainees by Central Intelligence Agency employees and contractors in the course of carrying out “enhanced interrogation” (which they had been ordered to do, and which had been authorized by the Justice Department) and to determine whether to initiate a criminal investigation.

Mr. Holder doesn’t seem concerned that each of these cases was exhaustively reviewed, beginning in 2005, by career prosecutors under the supervision of the United States attorney for the Eastern District of Virginia. Those men had access to the complete, unredacted report of the agency’s inspector general, an expurgated version of which was released on Monday. Yet these prosecutors recommended against criminal charges in all but one case. (That exception involved a contractor named David Passaro, who had assaulted a prisoner with a flashlight and kicked him in the groin, shortly after which the prisoner died. Mr. Passaro was convicted of assault and sentenced to eight years in prison.)

Mr. Holder’s decision, then, implies that justice wasn’t done five years ago probably because high-level officials in the George W. Bush administration put their thumbs on the scale of justice. This seems unlikely. The prosecutors in Virginia were well experienced in dealing with classified intelligence matters, as most of the federal intelligence agencies are in their district. They have a reputation for being hardheaded and unforgiving of C.I.A. transgressions.

Lacking reliable witnesses or forensic evidence, they made the only call they could have made: not to prosecute. In our nation of laws, that’s exactly the way you want government prosecutors to behave. And there is no indication that any of them has complained about being pressured to decide against criminal charges. If any new information has come out about these cases, any complaints about undue influence or any new witnesses, Mr. Holder hasn’t mentioned it. The prosecutors in this case had to abide by the Justice Department’s ruling, in August 2002, that no agency interrogator would face prosecution for exceeding the guidelines as long as he acted in “good faith” and didn’t have “the specific intent to inflict severe pain or suffering.” Not an easy distinction to make, surely, when the work you’re told to do seems to be designed precisely to inflict pain and suffering.

...

Read the whole thing, it's quite interesting.
 
Great article. Not the kind of thing I would expect from the NYT.

What really gets to my dad, who works for the CIA, about this, is that the CIA has tons of internal problems, and yet all people are focused on is a small number of terrorists who were tortured several years ago on a decision that the CIA wasn't even the one to make and was approved by the Justice Department at the time.
 
Great article. Not the kind of thing I would expect from the NYT.

What really gets to my dad, who works for the CIA, about this, is that the CIA has tons of internal problems, and yet all people are focused on is a small number of terrorists who were tortured several years ago on a decision that the CIA wasn't even the one to make and was approved by the Justice Department at the time.
And don't forget about all the Jason Bourne type in the CIA. They too are screwing up CIA.
What gets to me is that the CIA isn't really needed anymore, when we have the NSA.
 
The mandate for the the probe is only those who acted outside of the Bush Administrations guidelines. If someone acted within those guidelines they are not going to have problems.

If they went outside those guidelines, then they ought to be in jail for violating the law.

If you agree with the Bush guidelines or not, that is not the issue, the issue is only about those who acted outside of those guidelines.
 
Meh, the CIA should probably be reduced in size and focus on intelligence gathering instead of black ops and torture anyway.
 
The mandate for the the probe is only those who acted outside of the Bush Administrations guidelines. If someone acted within those guidelines they are not going to have problems.

If they went outside those guidelines, then they ought to be in jail for violating the law.

If you agree with the Bush guidelines or not, that is not the issue, the issue is only about those who acted outside of those guidelines.

Meh the mandate for the probe is only a transparent attempt at political damage control over the CIA report listing some of the information obtained and acted upon to save lives.

Hodor and his total protonic reversal of policy cracks me up. How is it possible in this day and age politicians can act as if no one is ever looking at them? Does their arrogance know no boundries?

"Dr. Egon Spengler: Try to imagine all life as you know it stopping instantaneously and every molecule in your body exploding at the speed of light.
Dr Ray Stantz: Total protonic reversal.
Dr. Peter Venkman: Right. That's bad. Okay. All right. Important safety tip. Thanks, Egon. "
 
Great article. Not the kind of thing I would expect from the NYT.

What really gets to my dad, who works for the CIA, about this, is that the CIA has tons of internal problems, and yet all people are focused on is a small number of terrorists who were tortured several years ago on a decision that the CIA wasn't even the one to make and was approved by the Justice Department at the time.

Well tell your Dad it doesn't matter what they were told to do. Just following orders is not a defense. Nor is the fact they had some hack lawyer write down that waterboarding was legal.


The ONLY thing that matters is what they did was legal or not legal. Period. End of story.

This has been a standard in American law for a long long time.

Charter of the International Military Tribunal at Nuremberg, 1945:

Section II, Article 8: "The fact that the Defendant acted pursuant to order of his Government or of a superior shall not free him from responsibility, but may be considered in mitigation of punishment if the Tribunal determines that justice so requires."

Robert Jackson, U.S. Attorney General and Chief Prosecutor at Nuremberg, Closing Address:

One of the chief reasons the defendants say there was no conspiracy is the argument that conspiracy was impossible with a dictator. The argument runs that they all had to obey Hitler's orders, which had the force of law in the German State, and hence obedience could not be made the basis of an original charge. In this way it is explained that while there have been wholesale killings, there have been no murderers.

This argument is an effort to evade Article 8 of the Charter, which provides that the order of the Government or of a superior shall not free a defendant from responsibility but can only be considered in mitigation.
 
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Meh the mandate for the probe is only a transparent attempt at political damage control over the CIA report listing some of the information obtained and acted upon to save lives.

Hodor and his total protonic reversal of policy cracks me up. How is it possible in this day and age politicians can act as if no one is ever looking at them? Does their arrogance know no boundries?

"Dr. Egon Spengler: Try to imagine all life as you know it stopping instantaneously and every molecule in your body exploding at the speed of light.
Dr Ray Stantz: Total protonic reversal.
Dr. Peter Venkman: Right. That's bad. Okay. All right. Important safety tip. Thanks, Egon. "

Do you believe that people who clearly violated the law should be held accountable?

Not holding people up to some new Obama standard, but do you believe people who violated the guidelines given to them by the Bush administration should be held accountable?

What is worrying about this instance is that we seem to not care if people violated the law.
 
Well tell your Dad it doesn't matter what they were told to do. Just following orders is not a defense. Nor is the fact they had some hack lawyer write down that waterboarding was legal.


The ONLY thing that matters is what they did was legal or not legal. Period. End of story.

That is not quite correct in my view. Everything they did under Bush was legal, if they followed the guidelines he gave them. If they did not, they need to be prosecuted, which is the point of this probe.

What we should not do is change the law after the fact and then go after people because a new administration has a different policy definition of "torture."
 
That is not quite correct in my view. Everything they did under Bush was legal, if they followed the guidelines he gave them. If they did not, they need to be prosecuted, which is the point of this probe.

What we should not do is change the law after the fact and then go after people because a new administration has a different policy definition of "torture."

It was legal according to whom? Tell me where waterboarding is legal?

We prosecuted Japanese War Criminals for waterboarding?
 
It was legal according to whom? Tell me where waterboarding is legal?

We prosecuted Japanese War Criminals for waterboarding?

Well, in the Japanese case, we were clear POW's under the Geneva Conventions, and the act resulted in actual soft tissue damage to the person who was subject to waterboarding Additionally, they added other techniques to waterboarding, and it was not exactly the same thing that we have done.

But, you ask why it is legal for us to do. It was legal because the DOJ and the OLC stated that we had the ability to use such techniques. We were able to say such a thing because the detainees were not subject to Geneva Convention protections as they were in clear violation of numerous aspects required to get you said protection.

We do not waterboard any longer (not that we really did all that much to begin with), but you cannot take the Obama definition of torture and retroactively apply that to CIA actions taken under a different definition of the practice, such as in the Bush years. That would be akin to you cutting down a tree, only to have the law changed a year later that you cannot cut down a tree, and then you are arrested and put on trial for cutting down a tree.
 
Well, in the Japanese case, we were clear POW's under the Geneva Conventions, and the act resulted in actual soft tissue damage to the person who was subject to waterboarding Additionally, they added other techniques to waterboarding, and it was not exactly the same thing that we have done.

But, you ask why it is legal for us to do. It was legal because the DOJ and the OLC stated that we had the ability to use such techniques. We were able to say such a thing because the detainees were not subject to Geneva Convention protections as they were in clear violation of numerous aspects required to get you said protection.

We do not waterboard any longer (not that we really did all that much to begin with), but you cannot take the Obama definition of torture and retroactively apply that to CIA actions taken under a different definition of the practice, such as in the Bush years. That would be akin to you cutting down a tree, only to have the law changed a year later that you cannot cut down a tree, and then you are arrested and put on trial for cutting down a tree.

You know nothing. The UN Convention on Torture applies to ANYONE ANYWHERE under US CONTROL. We are a party to that treaty which was ratified by the Senate. The US Constitution says ratified treaties are the LAW OF THE LAND. In this treaty it specifially says no exceptions are made for any official because of his position.

And once again ....the Executive...does not determine legality. Just because the DOJ says it's legal means nothing. We have a Judicial Branch to determine legality. Lawyers inside the DOJ are not Judges and are attached to the Executive Branch not the Judical branch.
 
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You know nothing. The UN Convention on Torture applies to ANYONE ANYWHERE under US CONTROL. We are a party to that treaty which was ratified by the Senate. The US Constitution says ratified treaties are the LAW OF THE LAND. In this treaty it specifially says no exceptions are made for any official because of his position.

True, but what you left out was that the United States only signed this convention based on certain declarations, reservations and understandings that included that the treaty was "non self-executing."

What that means is that the treaty is meaningless until domestic legislation is implemented that would bring the treaty into force. Since that was never the case, and our laws allowed for us to conduct ourselves in the manner that we did, we did not legally violate the Convention.

Rather than claiming I "know nothing", it might do you some good to read about the implementation of such treaties before citing them in an attempt to make your case.

And once again ....the Executive...does not determine legality. Just because the DOJ says it's legal means nothing. We have a Judicial Branch to determine legality. Lawyers inside the DOJ are not Judges and are attached to the Executive Branch not the Judical branch.

The Executive, with clear OLC and DOJ decisions, can act on matters such as this. Until the Courts tell them to stop, it is not illegal. Further, in the Judiciary, OLC decisions are very hard to overcome in a legal battle. No one who acted in accordance with the legal Bush guidelines is going to be punished.
 
Great article. Not the kind of thing I would expect from the NYT.

One thing I will say for the NYT is that regardless of their news slant and editorial content, they're quite willing to publish opposing op-eds.

The mandate for the the probe is only those who acted outside of the Bush Administrations guidelines. If someone acted within those guidelines they are not going to have problems.

If they went outside those guidelines, then they ought to be in jail for violating the law.

If you agree with the Bush guidelines or not, that is not the issue, the issue is only about those who acted outside of those guidelines.

The most important point that I think the oped is making is that these actions have already been reviewed by multiple USA's, so even if they went outside the guidelines, we decided against prosecuting them once and that decision should stand.

Well tell your Dad it doesn't matter what they were told to do. Just following orders is not a defense. Nor is the fact they had some hack lawyer write down that waterboarding was legal.

The ONLY thing that matters is what they did was legal or not legal. Period. End of story.

This has been a standard in American law for a long long time.

Again, this was nowhere near as clear as you're implying. The fact that you're unaware of the nuances of the debate doesn't mean they don't exist.

You know nothing. The UN Convention on Torture applies to ANYONE ANYWHERE under US CONTROL. We are a party to that treaty which was ratified by the Senate. The US Constitution says ratified treaties are the LAW OF THE LAND. In this treaty it specifially says no exceptions are made for any official because of his position.

And once again ....the Executive...does not determine legality. Just because the DOJ says it's legal means nothing. We have a Judicial Branch to determine legality. Lawyers inside the DOJ are not Judges and are attached to the Executive Branch not the Judical branch.

US CODE: Title 18,2340. Definitions

Hope that helps.
 
The most important point that I think the oped is making is that these actions have already been reviewed by multiple USA's, so even if they went outside the guidelines, we decided against prosecuting them once and that decision should stand.

True, but I seem to recall Holder stating that he had seen "new evidence." I imagine that played a role in his decision.

That said, I would be disappointed if we knew before that people acted outside of the guidelines and we turned a blind eye.

I have no problem with enhanced interrogations, but I feel that they need to be conducted in accordance with the guidelines that we establish and our own laws.

I imagine that this probe will go nowhere, and if it at all changes in its direction I would oppose it, but for now, I do not have that big of a problem with it.
 
True, but I seem to recall Holder stating that he had seen "new evidence." I imagine that played a role in his decision.

That said, I would be disappointed if we knew before that people acted outside of the guidelines and we turned a blind eye.

I have no problem with enhanced interrogations, but I feel that they need to be conducted in accordance with the guidelines that we establish and our own laws.

I imagine that this probe will go nowhere, and if it at all changes in its direction I would oppose it, but for now, I do not have that big of a problem with it.

I was going off of the article where it said:
If any new information has come out about these cases, any complaints about undue influence or any new witnesses, Mr. Holder hasn’t mentioned it.

But if he did get some new information, I can see this making sense.

I agree with the rest of what you said - I don't think the decision against prosecution before was based on a desire to turn a blind eye, I think it was based on the fact that the prosecutors didn't think they had enough admissible evidence to win a conviction.
 
True, but what you left out was that the United States only signed this convention based on certain declarations, reservations and understandings that included that the treaty was "non self-executing."

What that means is that the treaty is meaningless until domestic legislation is implemented that would bring the treaty into force. Since that was never the case, and our laws allowed for us to conduct ourselves in the manner that we did, we did not legally violate the Convention.

Rather than claiming I "know nothing", it might do you some good to read about the implementation of such treaties before citing them in an attempt to make your case.


The Executive, with clear OLC and DOJ decisions, can act on matters such as this. Until the Courts tell them to stop, it is not illegal. Further, in the Judiciary, OLC decisions are very hard to overcome in a legal battle. No one who acted in accordance with the legal Bush guidelines is going to be punished.

Very true sir, and we did that in 2004. You can read all about on page 4.

http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/crs/rl32276.pdf

So you are back to knowing nothing.
 
Title 18 Section 2340

(a) Offense.— Whoever outside the United States commits or attempts to commit torture shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both, and if death results to any person from conduct prohibited by this subsection, shall be punished by death or imprisoned for any term of years or for life.
 
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Title 18 Section 2340

(a) Offense.— Whoever outside the United States commits or attempts to commit torture shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both, and if death results to any person from conduct prohibited by this subsection, shall be punished by death or imprisoned for any term of years or for life.

I was referring to this:

(1) “torture” means an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control;
 
What is your point? I'm not following you.

Section 2340A makes it a criminal offense for any person "outside the United States [to] commit[] or attempt[] to commit torture."(1) Section 2340 defines the act of torture as an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person with his custody or physical control. 18 U.S.C.A. §§ 2340(1); see id. §§ 2340A.

Thus, to convict a defendant of torture, the prosecution must establish that (1) the torture occurred outside the United States; (2) the defendant acted under the color of law; (3) the victim was within the defendant’s custody or physical control; (4) the defendant specifically intended to cause severe physical or mental pain or suffering, and (5) that the act inflicted severe physical or mental pain or suffering. See also S. Exec. Rep. No. 101-30, at 6 (1990) ("For an act to be ‘torture,’ it must ... cause severe pain and suffering, and be intended to cause severe pain and suffering.") You have asked us to address only the elements of specific intent and the infliction of severe pain or suffering.

...

To violate Section 2340A, the statute requires that severe pain and suffering must be inflicted with specific intent. See 18 U.S.C. § 2340(1). In order for a defendant to have acted with specific intent, he must expressly intend to achieve the forbidden act. See United States v. Carter, 530 U.S. 255, 269 (2000); Black’s Law Dictionary at 814 (7th ed. 1999) (defining specific intent as "[t]he intent to accomplish the precise criminal act that one is later charged with"). For example, in Ratzlaf v. United States, 510 U.S. 135, 141 (1994), the statute at issue was construed to require that the defendant act with the "specific intent to commit the crime." (Internal quotation marks and citation omitted). As a result, the defendant had to act with the express "purpose to disobey the law" in order for the mens rea element to be satisfied. Ibid. (internal quotation marks and citation omitted)

Here, because Section 2340 requires that a defendant act with the specific intent to inflict severe pain, the infliction of such pain must be the defendant’s precise objective. If the statute had required only general intent, it would be sufficient to establish guilt by showing that the defendant "possessed knowledge with respect to the actus reus of the crime." Carter, 530 U.S. at 268. If the defendant acted knowing that severe pain or suffering was reasonably likely to result from his actions, but no more, he would have acted only with general intent. See id. at 269; Black’s Law Dictionary 813 (7th ed. 1999) (explaining that general intent "usu[ally] takes the form of recklessness (involving actual awareness of a risk and the culpable taking of that risk) or negligence (involving blameworthy inadvertence)"). The Supreme Court has used the following example to illustrate the difference between these two mental states:

[A] person entered a bank and took money from a teller at gunpoint, but deliberately failed to make a quick getaway from the bank in the hope of being arrested so that he would be returned to prison and treated for alcoholism. Though this defendant knowingly engaged in the acts of using force and taking money (satisfying "general intent"), he did not intend permanently to deprive the bank of its possession of the money (failing to satisfy "specific intent").

As a theoretical matter, therefore, knowledge alone that a particular result is certain to occur does not constitute specific intent. As the Supreme Court explained in the context of murder, "the ... common law of homicide distinguishes ... between a person who knows that another person will be killed as a result of his conduct and a person who acts with the specific purpose of taking another’s life[.]" United States v. Bailey, 444 U.S. 394, 405 (1980). "Put differently, the law distinguishes actions taken ‘because of’ a given end from actions taken in spite of their unintended but foreseen consequences." Vacco v. Quill, 521 U.S. 793, 802-03 (1997). Thus, even if the defendant knows that severe pain will result from his actions, if causing such harm is not his objective, he lacks the requisite specific intent even though the defendant did not act in good faith. Instead, a defendant is guilty of torture only if he acts with the express purpose of inflicting severe pain or suffering on a person within his custody or physical control.


..................
 
OK you've sourced some of the law and some commentary along with it.

What's your point?

Are you saying what may have been done does not meet the requirement to prosecute for torture?

You said:

Well tell your Dad it doesn't matter what they were told to do. Just following orders is not a defense. Nor is the fact they had some hack lawyer write down that waterboarding was legal.

The ONLY thing that matters is what they did was legal or not legal. Period. End of story.

It was legal according to whom? Tell me where waterboarding is legal?

I provided the statute and the DoJ memo to explain why waterboarding is not per se illegal, and by proxy, is not per se torture.
 
You posted this memo

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bybee_Memo]Bybee Memo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]


Without crediting where it came from.

Once again for the umpteenth time! It is not relevent what Alberto Gonzalez or Bybee, or that fat ass Asian Lawyer at Stanford had to say about Torture.

They are lawyers under the executive Branch. They are not Judges.

That's really some evidence you posted above.

The memo has been widely criticized. Yale law school Dean and former Assistant Secretary for Human Rights Harold Koh called it "perhaps the most clearly erroneous legal opinion I have ever read" which "grossly overreads the president's constitutional power."[21] Former Nixon White House counsel John Dean, whose name was cemented in the national consciousness by his involvement in the Watergate scandal, concludes that the memo is tantamount to evidence of a war crime.[21] On March 9, 2006, after emerging from a closed talk at Harvard Law School sponsored by the student chapter of the Federalist Society, a legal organization, Bybee was confronted by around thirty-five protesters.[22
 
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