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Philippines' Duterte likens himself to Hitler, wants to kill millions of drug users

Re: Philippines' Duterte likens himself to Hitler, wants to kill millions of drug use

Chomsky said:
Crazy as it sounds, many Pinoy living in America love this guy! Just about all of the ones I know, and I know a lot!
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Well, I'm not fan of the South/Central American Cartels(that drug money should be going to American Cartels), but I do believe in due process. And anyone that voluntarily likens himself to Hitler should be watched, closely.
 
Re: Philippines' Duterte likens himself to Hitler, wants to kill millions of drug use

ThoughtEx. said:
Well, I'm not fan of the South/Central American Cartels(that drug money should be going to American Cartels), but I do believe in due process. And anyone that voluntarily likens himself to Hitler should be watched, closely.
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Well if so, we better hope Duterte was lying when he recently claimed Trump called him and told him he was going about the drug war "in the right way"! :shock:
 
Re: Philippines' Duterte likens himself to Hitler, wants to kill millions of drug use

ThoughtEx. said:
He did this a few months ago, and it turns out he's not all talk.

Police rack up an almost perfectly deadly record in Philippine drug war

I'm thinking maybe we shouldn't condone this...
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The only thing one could possibly say that is positive about him is that he didn't lie when he called it a War on Drugs.

Everything else would land him in hell, if hell existed.






Chomsky said:
Well if so, we better hope Duterte was lying when he recently claimed Trump called him and told him he was going about the drug war "in the right way"! :shock:
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It wouldn't be a high crime and (did they mean "or"?) misdemeanor, but if it were true, it might at least help ensure he only has 4 years to break everything...not 8
 
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Re: Philippines' Duterte likens himself to Hitler, wants to kill millions of drug use

Chomsky said:
Well if so, we better hope Duterte was lying when he recently claimed Trump called him and told him he was going about the drug war "in the right way"! :shock:
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If that turns out to be true, it makes me glad I moved to Canada...
 
Re: Philippines' Duterte likens himself to Hitler, wants to kill millions of drug use

Anyway, this Duerte guy is exactly the kind of evil maniac who gets elected when a large body of people, who are in fear (rightly or wrongly; here wrongly) of a certain thing, elect a strong man who promises to smash that thing.

At least our Democratic institutions provide a little extra protection.
 
Re: Philippines' Duterte likens himself to Hitler, wants to kill millions of drug use

ThoughtEx. said:
He did this a few months ago, and it turns out he's not all talk.

Police rack up an almost perfectly deadly record in Philippine drug war

I'm thinking maybe we shouldn't condone this...
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Question: If you have a dynamic where the drug dealers are nearly as powerful as the government, do you have the luxury of taking a more tame roll? Look at Mexico and how the are struggling and the government is out powered and outgunned. At what point do you consider it an existential threat and not employing a heavy hand dooms your state to failure?
 
Re: Philippines' Duterte likens himself to Hitler, wants to kill millions of drug use

Chomsky said:
Crazy as it sounds, many Pinoy living in America love this guy! Just about all of the ones I know, and I know a lot!
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Yep. It sounds crazy. People Are Funny! We've known that since 1942.
 
Re: Philippines' Duterte likens himself to Hitler, wants to kill millions of drug use

Fishking said:
Question: If you have a dynamic where the drug dealers are nearly as powerful as the government, do you have the luxury of taking a more tame roll? Look at Mexico and how the are struggling and the government is out powered and outgunned. At what point do you consider it an existential threat and not employing a heavy hand dooms your state to failure?
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Well, Fishking, my good friend. I see it this way, If a criminal organization has just as much support from the people as the Government does. And the only reason they are a criminal organization is because a Foreign Government wants them to be, I think the country in question would be best served decriminalizing and establishing legit markets to profit from the trade in question.

I find it appalling that a leader would call for wholesale slaughter of his own people. And for what? To appease the US Drug Czar? Stop US money from coming into his country? Do not assume that I consider the Drug War a moral endeavor. My stance against the Drug Cartels of Central/South America is and always will be they are taking wealth from us. Via Sales, and the money we spend to stop them. My problem is not them selling us a product that we have a high demand for.
 
Re: Philippines' Duterte likens himself to Hitler, wants to kill millions of drug use

Fishking said:
Question: If you have a dynamic where the drug dealers are nearly as powerful as the government, do you have the luxury of taking a more tame roll? Look at Mexico and how the are struggling and the government is out powered and outgunned. At what point do you consider it an existential threat and not employing a heavy hand dooms your state to failure?
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Question: Until the so-called "War on Terror", America respected the rules of war; respected the requirement of trials for some of the greatest monsters in human history (Nuremburg), respected the principle that the means do not justify the ends*.

How can you possibly justify targeting the murder (important word) of suspected (important word) drug-use enablers (important word)? This isn't some calculated pursuit of cartels followed by gunfights when they are confronted. This is state-approval and participation in murder of anyone that anyone thinks - or chooses to accuse of being for their own personal reasons - is a drug dealer.

If you lived there and had a feud with your neighbor over late-night parties, you would get a free pass for shooting him dead. How do you fail to understand this?



*I except the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. That was not means justifying the ends. That was a comparison of ends: (0 American military deaths vs. X00,000 Japanese deaths) vs. (3,000,000+ Japanese and American military deaths vs. X,000,000 Japanese civilian deaths). I doubt there's a God but if I'm wrong, I once again thank it that I have not in the position to make such a terrible decision.
 
Re: Philippines' Duterte likens himself to Hitler, wants to kill millions of drug use

Mr Person said:
*I except the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. That was not means justifying the ends. That was a comparison of ends: (0 American military deaths vs. X00,000 Japanese deaths) vs. (3,000,000+ Japanese and American military deaths vs. X,000,000 Japanese civilian deaths). I doubt there's a God but if I'm wrong, I once again thank it that I have not in the position to make such a terrible decision.
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There's a documentary series on Netflix, Oliver Stone's Untold History of the United States, that offers a counter viewpoint on dropping the bombs that you might find interesting.
 
Re: Philippines' Duterte likens himself to Hitler, wants to kill millions of drug use

ThoughtEx. said:
Well, Fishking, my good friend. I see it this way, If a criminal organization has just as much support from the people as the Government does. And the only reason they are a criminal organization is because a Foreign Government wants them to be, I think the country in question would be best served decriminalizing and establishing legit markets to profit from the trade in question.

I find it appalling that a leader would call for wholesale slaughter of his own people. And for what? To appease the US Drug Czar? Stop US money from coming into his country? Do not assume that I consider the Drug War a moral endeavor. My stance against the Drug Cartels of Central/South America is and always will be they are taking wealth from us. Via Sales, and the money we spend to stop them. My problem is not them selling us a product that we have a high demand for.
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Interesting take, and not without some merits. I'm for decriminalization as well. However, I think you're a little off on the people. In this environment the people aren't for the drug dealers. They are intimidated by them and live in fear.

I mean, if you look at it as a battle over keeping the country whole, it's almost in the context of a civil war and in war you just kill people. Should the North had just let the South secede from the Union? Less people would have died by allowing that.

Just looking at it from a more extreme perspective. We have the luxury of judging from our ivory towers and don't have to live through that. I'll agree that there is a danger in this type of thing but there is also an actual real danger in not doing it, and I'm not talking about fake boogie men here type of thing.
 
Re: Philippines' Duterte likens himself to Hitler, wants to kill millions of drug use

Fishking said:
Interesting take, and not without some merits. I'm for decriminalization as well. However, I think you're a little off on the people. In this environment the people aren't for the drug dealers. They are intimidated by them and live in fear.

I mean, if you look at it as a battle over keeping the country whole, it's almost in the context of a civil war and in war you just kill people. Should the North had just let the South secede from the Union? Less people would have died by allowing that.

Just looking at it from a more extreme perspective. We have the luxury of judging from our ivory towers and don't have to live through that. I'll agree that there is a danger in this type of thing but there is also an actual real danger in not doing it, and I'm not talking about fake boogie men here type of thing.
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Alot of these Cartels are offering aid and services the Government does not, for a long time Pablo Escobar was a hero. Some in Colombia still think of him as such. It's not so black and white, considering the Governments are just as brutal as the Cartels, and in many cases more so.
 
Re: Philippines' Duterte likens himself to Hitler, wants to kill millions of drug use

Mr Person said:
*I except the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. That was not means justifying the ends. That was a comparison of ends: (0 American military deaths vs. X00,000 Japanese deaths) vs. (3,000,000+ Japanese and American military deaths vs. X,000,000 Japanese civilian deaths). I doubt there's a God but if I'm wrong, I once again thank it that I have not in the position to make such a terrible decision.
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Not necessarily justifying it but giving it perspective. The reality is that we've done more than just nuke civilians, but that's a different subject. I'll bring up another context. In the Middle East, a government with a softer and fairer hand such as ours (as flawed as it is) cannot exist in many of the countries there. It is simply factual that heavy-handed measures are absolutely required to keep a certain level of peace.

But going back to your example of nukes and doing a numbers comparison, and you admitting you accept their use due to how the numbers were theoretically projected to be without them, do not the numbers of dead in the Philippines have the potential to be significantly higher over time if the drug cartels are not dealt with using more severe measures. I mean, by accepting the use of nukes you accept that very premise you based your initial statements on. It's a contradiction.
 
Re: Philippines' Duterte likens himself to Hitler, wants to kill millions of drug use

ThoughtEx. said:
Alot of these Cartels are offering aid and services the Government does not, for a long time Pablo Escobar was a hero. Some in Colombia still think of him as such. It's not so black and white, considering the Governments are just as brutal as the Cartels, and in many cases more so.
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The carrot works really with in conjunction with the stick. Hamas operates in much the same manner.
 
Re: Philippines' Duterte likens himself to Hitler, wants to kill millions of drug use

Fishking said:
Not necessarily justifying it but giving it perspective. The reality is that we've done more than just nuke civilians, but that's a different subject. I'll bring up another context. In the Middle East, a government with a softer and fairer hand such as ours (as flawed as it is) cannot exist in many of the countries there. It is simply factual that heavy-handed measures are absolutely required to keep a certain level of peace.

But going back to your example of nukes and doing a numbers comparison, and you admitting you accept their use due to how the numbers were theoretically projected to be without them, do not the numbers of dead in the Philippines have the potential to be significantly higher over time if the drug cartels are not dealt with using more severe measures. I mean, by accepting the use of nukes you accept that very premise you based your initial statements on. It's a contradiction.
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Not really.

Duerte authorized civilians to kill other civilians so long as they claimed the killing was because of drug dealing or even just use. There are plenty more possible measures to "fight drugs" (assuming that's even the right way to go about drug abuse and it's problems - big assumption) than letting anyone kill anyone.

Our calculations in Japan were made near the end of a brutal war. We'd already seen how the Japanese resist when they dug in. It was fairly certain that it would be a long brutal slog that would rack up insane bodycounts on both sides if we tried to do it with conventional weapons.

There is nothing in the way of evidence that the bodycount in the Phillipines from drug use would be greater than the bodycount from what Duerte is doing.




They really don't compare
 
Re: Philippines' Duterte likens himself to Hitler, wants to kill millions of drug use

Fishking said:
The carrot works really with in conjunction with the stick. Hamas operates in much the same manner.
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Well, one thing I think that has hurt the Cartels already is so many of our States legalizing one of their profit centers. It's to soon to tell to what extent it's affected their organizations. But, if we continue to turn their profit centers into our profit centers, eventually they will just buckle. Probably have a few inter Cartel Wars for the remaining revenue streams left to them. They could do our dirty work for us. If we play the cards right.
 
Re: Philippines' Duterte likens himself to Hitler, wants to kill millions of drug use

Mr Person said:
Not really.

Duerte authorized civilians to kill other civilians so long as they claimed the killing was because of drug dealing or even just use. There are plenty more possible measures to "fight drugs" (assuming that's even the right way to go about drug abuse and it's problems - big assumption) than letting anyone kill anyone.

Our calculations in Japan were made near the end of a brutal war. We'd already seen how the Japanese resist when they dug in. It was fairly certain that it would be a long brutal slog that would rack up insane bodycounts on both sides if we tried to do it with conventional weapons.

There is nothing in the way of evidence that the bodycount in the Phillipines from drug use would be greater than the bodycount from what Duerte is doing.

They really don't compare
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1. You justified the use of a brutal weapon on civilians because the overall result would be better. That's your own words and reasoning. This means you accept the premise that brutal means to achieve a greater goal is valid. Again, your own reasoning.

2. Who said it was drug use? What about those who are killed by the drug cartels? I don't know what the numbers in the Philippines looks like but I know in Mexico is pretty freaking huge.

The Staggering Death Toll of Mexico's Drug War | Drug Lord: The Legend of Shorty | FRONTLINE | PBS

Hard to figure out what numbers belong to what but the weakened government and the strong drug cartels definitely plays a significant roll in the large numbers.
 
Re: Philippines' Duterte likens himself to Hitler, wants to kill millions of drug use

Fishking said:
1. You justified the use of a brutal weapon on civilians because the overall result would be better. That's your own words and reasoning. This means you accept the premise that brutal means to achieve a greater goal is valid. Again, your own reasoning.

2. Who said it was drug use? What about those who are killed by the drug cartels? I don't know what the numbers in the Philippines looks like but I know in Mexico is pretty freaking huge.

The Staggering Death Toll of Mexico's Drug War | Drug Lord: The Legend of Shorty | FRONTLINE | PBS

Hard to figure out what numbers belong to what but the weakened government and the strong drug cartels definitely plays a significant roll in the large numbers.
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1. You challenged me and I elaborated. It is a dishonest move to tell me that you will ignore any elaboration because you've formed ideas about what I really meant based on the first thing I posted, when that post didn't take into account the challenges you made after it.

2. I did. He has. Look it up.

Here's a start. Statement of Duerte to the people:

"Please feel free to call us, the police, or do it yourself if you have the gun ... you have my support," he told the crowd and television cameras.
"Shoot him [the drug dealer] and I'll give you a medal."

Philippines' Rodrigo Duterte: Public 'can kill' criminals - CNN.com


Mexico has nothing to do with my critique of Duerte (Phillipines) and anyone who supports him.
 
Re: Philippines' Duterte likens himself to Hitler, wants to kill millions of drug use

Mr Person said:
1. You challenged me and I elaborated. It is a dishonest move to tell me that you will ignore any elaboration because you've formed ideas about what I really meant based on the first thing I posted, when that post didn't take into account the challenges you made after it.
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Your elaboration changed nothing. Your reasoning is still the same. You accept the use of the most brutal weapon to have been created to be used against a civilian populace because paying that bill up front saved a greater bill in lives being lost using conventional means.

2. I did. He has. Look it up.

Here's a start. Statement of Duerte to the people:

"Please feel free to call us, the police, or do it yourself if you have the gun ... you have my support," he told the crowd and television cameras.
"Shoot him [the drug dealer] and I'll give you a medal."

Philippines' Rodrigo Duterte: Public 'can kill' criminals - CNN.com

Mexico has nothing to do with my critique of Duerte (Phillipines) and anyone who supports him.
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This entire point is a red herring and bears no relevance to what I said.
 
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