Obamacare Unpopularity Is Sander's Fault

Moderate Right · Jan 7, 2017

https://www.yahoo.com/news/obama-says-sanders-supporters-helped-undermine-obamacare-212438322.html

Obama claims that part of the reason Obamacare has always had more disapproval than approval is partially Bernie Sander's fault. At least the spin has changed from, "It's not unpopular at all" to "it's being unpopular is partially Bernie Sander's fault".

Helix · Jan 7, 2017

might as well bypass the oversimplification in the thread title and analyze the actual quote.

Obama said:
"In the 'dissatisfied' column are a whole bunch of Bernie Sanders supporters who wanted a single-payer plan," Obama said in the interview.

yep. that should have been the initial goalpost, with a public option as the last fallback position. wasn't possible, though, because America isn't ready for that system yet. we still want to believe that employer-specific health insurance that you lose the second you're downsized is the best thing since sliced bread.

Obama said:
"The problem is not that they think Obamacare is a failure. The problem is that they don't think it went far enough and that it left too many people still uncovered," Obama said.

that, and it still leaves access to an essential service with inelastic demand in which geographical immediacy is a significant factor largely in the hands of for-profit middlemen. it's a half measure at best.

however,

Obamacare Unpopularity Is Sander's Fault

no. the actual argument laid out in the quote is much more nuanced than that, and this summary of the argument is too oversimplified to be considered accurate.

Mac77 · Jan 7, 2017

Helix said:
might as well bypass the oversimplification in the thread title and analyze the actual quote.

yep. that should have been the initial goalpost, with a public option as the last fallback position. wasn't possible, though, because America isn't ready for that system yet. we still want to believe that employer-specific health insurance that you lose the second you're downsized is the best thing since sliced bread.

that, and it still leaves access to an essential service with inelastic demand in which geographical immediacy is a significant factor largely in the hands of for-profit middlemen. it's a half measure at best.

however,

no. the actual argument laid out in the quote is much more nuanced than that, and this summary of the argument is too oversimplified to be considered accurate.

Obamas plan was to wreck the private health insurance system and replace it with socislized medicine.

It would be the sameas if teddy roosevelt decided to force American farmers to switch over to the new-fangled gasoline tractors and had all the horses and mules shot

Helix · Jan 7, 2017

Mac77 said:
Obamas plan was to wreck the private health insurance system and replace it with socislized medicine.

It would be the sameas if teddy roosevelt decided to force American farmers to switch over to the new-fangled gasoline tractors and had all the horses and mules shot

i'm sure that's the way you see it. the way i see it is that he probably wanted to enact something similar to Canada's system, his advisors told him that there was no way that this kind of program had any chance of passage, so he settled for the stripped down compromise that is the ACA. it was kind of a "do something, anything" situation. while parts of it will almost certainly be kept due to popularity, most of it will probably be rescinded. what will be interesting to see is the proposed replacement, how much it looks like the ACA, and how workable and effective it is in comparison.

Mac77 · Jan 7, 2017

Helix said:
i'm sure that's the way you see it. the way i see it is that he probably wanted to enact something similar to Canada's system, his advisors told him that there was no way that this kind of program had any chance of passage, so he settled for the stripped down compromise that is the ACA. it was kind of a "do something, anything" situation. while parts of it will almost certainly be kept due to popularity, most of it will probably be rescinded. what will be interesting to see is the proposed replacement, how much it looks like the ACA, and how workable and effective it is in comparison.

Do-Something-Even-If-Its-Wrong is no more flattering to obama than what I suggested

notquiteright · Jan 7, 2017

Mac77 said:
Obamas plan was to wreck the private health insurance system and replace it with socislized medicine. It would be the sameas if teddy roosevelt decided to force American farmers to switch over to the new-fangled gasoline tractors and had all the horses and mules shot

If by wreck you mean return it to it's roots before massive profiteering took root, I'll agree. The eppipen outrage is a YUGE example of how 'free-enterprise' is distorted by those who scream the loudest for it.

The comparison using Teddy is YUGELY off base... it is as if Teddy wanted to replace animal power with mechanical (a YUGE boost to our productivity BTW) and gave subsidies to buy tractors and shipped the draft animals to France by the pound. The resistance would come from animal breeders who wound have to be roughly 20% of the economy...

eace

Helix · Jan 7, 2017

Mac77 said:
Do-Something-Even-If-Its-Wrong is no more flattering to obama than what I suggested

i look forward to hashing out the details of the proposed replacement with you.

Mac77 · Jan 7, 2017

notquiteright said:
If by wreck you mean return it to it's roots before massive profiteering took root,

I'll agree. The eppipen outrage is a YUGE example of how 'free-enterprise' is distorted by those who scream the loudest for it.

The comparison using Teddy is YUGELY off base... it is as if Teddy wanted to replace animal power with mechanical (a YUGE boost to our productivity BTW) and gave subsidies to buy tractors and shipped the draft animals to France by the pound. The resistance would come from animal breeders who wound have to be roughly 20% of the economy... eace

Now I'm curious

What do you think the healthcare system was before capitalism came along?

notquiteright · Jan 7, 2017

Mac77 said:
Now I'm curious. What do you think the healthcare system was before capitalism came along?

Don't give capitalism any credit for this... Capitalism existed for centuries before any thought was given to a healthcare system....

eace

Greenbeard · Jan 7, 2017

Moderate Right said:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/obama-says-sanders-supporters-helped-undermine-obamacare-212438322.html

Obama claims that part of the reason Obamacare has always had more disapproval than approval is partially Bernie Sander's fault. At least the spin has changed from, "It's not unpopular at all" to "it's being unpopular is partially Bernie Sander's fault".

The left didn't like it because it wasn't single-payer, the right didn't like it because they thought it was single-payer. Tough crowd, both ways.

Mac77 · Jan 8, 2017

notquiteright said:
Don't give capitalism any credit for this... Capitalism existed for centuries before any thought was given to a healthcare system.... eace

A healthcare system has always existed

When doctors became doctors back through the ages they had to be paid then just as they expect to be paid now

So your response makes no sense to me

Yes medical professionals charge for their services and they have every right to

Otherwise they would have to find some other way to support themselves

And that is the essence of capitalism

katzgar · Jan 8, 2017

Mac77 said:
Obamas plan was to wreck the private health insurance system and replace it with socislized medicine.

It would be the sameas if teddy roosevelt decided to force American farmers to switch over to the new-fangled gasoline tractors and had all the horses and mules shot

your post has no basis in reality

Mac77 · Jan 8, 2017

katzgar said:
your post has no basis in reality

Your responds represents denial of the highest magnitude