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The way forward: SS, Unemployment, Medical

You seem to have put a lot of effort into this, and thank you for creating an interesting point of discussion.
Thank you :)
But as referenced in my post #49 above, you're treating SS like a retirement investment fund rather than the (income) insurance program it is.
You're right, I am. Because the current system is not sustainable. The object is to fix, not carry on failed ideas :)
Which is fine, if you only want to examine the retirement fund aspects in a vacuum, but then you have to come-up with the other insurance aspects. For instance: What if you & your wife give birth to a downs syndrome baby? What if you become disabled at a young age. What happens to your family if you become disabled. What happens to your kids if you die before they're self-sustaining? (the last - as happened in Paul Ryan's case - where as a teenager he used his dad's SS benefits to attend a university)
That, is for an alternate discussion, but the basics would be that such would be handled at the state level. IF you are unable to work, say from childhood or you have run through the funds you have established for yourself, then government assistance can kick in. Where do those funds come from? The STATES themselves should be the first point. Relying on the Federal Government IMHO is not a good thing, and should be avoided where possible. The more local government is, the more accountable to the people it becomes.
Check-out my post #49 above.
I shall, give me a min, I am actually working atm :)
 
Thank you :)

You're right, I am. Because the current system is not sustainable. The object is to fix, not carry on failed ideas :)

That, is for an alternate discussion, but the basics would be that such would be handled at the state level. IF you are unable to work, say from childhood or you have run through the funds you have established for yourself, then government assistance can kick in. Where do those funds come from? The STATES themselves should be the first point. Relying on the Federal Government IMHO is not a good thing, and should be avoided where possible. The more local government is, the more accountable to the people it becomes.

I shall, give me a min, I am actually working atm :)
Thanks for the response Renae.

Don't work too hard! ;)
 
yes, i support enacting a first world solution to fix our ridiculously inefficient and unnecessarily expensive health care system.

So everyone pays the same dollar amount and receives the same care?
 
What are you one about?

In effect, various percentages of income are already taxed to provide for social security, unemployment insurance, and medicare.

You're just talking about changing the percentages to **** over most of the population, to take money from Americans and hand it to the rich.
 
In effect, various percentages of income are already taxed to provide for social security, unemployment insurance, and medicare.

You're just talking about changing the percentages to **** over most of the population, to take money from Americans and hand it to the rich.

You're just blathering class warfare talking points because you lack the intellectual ammunition to discuss the issue rationally.
 
So everyone pays the same dollar amount and receives the same care?

i'm open to studying the best parts of other first world systems to put together a custom fit solution for the US. however, my preference would be to expand Medicare to cover everyone, not just older Americans. something similar to the Canadian system, basically. we could also look at the shortcomings of that system and try to design ways to address them.
 
1. Retirement.
When you begin working, your employer is forced to pay 1% of your of you income to this. You can choose to add up to 7%, pretax, to this fund. This fund is never taxed income. Ever. You can choose, to have it government managed (mostly US Savings bonds and such) or have it managed by a 3rd party , kinda like a 401k. If you pass away before you retire, it goes to who you designate or next of kin. Tax free. It's YOUR SS, but for you, by you.
The employer's portion of SS is currently 6.2%. So you're slashing the employer's contribution to almost nothing, and yeah there is zero chance that saved employer portion will be passed on to the employee.

We know, from decades of observation, that people will not save money if it's optional. You can already contribute up to $5500 a year to a tax-sheltered IRA, and most people don't even do that -- not even the people who are worried that SS won't be around when they retire.

We know, from observation of the Aussie plan and from investor behavior in the US, that most people suck at saving. They routinely get hit with huge fees that erode their savings rate. They pick bad funds. They change funds at the worst possible time.

Plus, Social Security is pay-as-you-go. It is not an IRA. That means that the money collected in payroll taxes today, is spent on beneficiaries today. So every cent that is diverted to any sort of private personal fund? That increases the shortfall that is currently crippling SS.

If we have no restrictions on how the money is withdrawn, then what will happen? People will basically blow through it on retirement; they treat it like a lottery ticket. That's exactly what we see with Australia's system. It's compounded by the need to ensure that the people who do blow through all their savings don't get shafted -- after all, we don't want a system where 85 year olds completely run out of cash, right?

And what happens to Medicare? You do know that is paid for out of the same payroll taxes that fund Social Security, right?


2. Unemployment.
Again, like the retirement fund, your employer pays 1% of your income into this, you can up up 7% of your pretax into this fund. It's a little different than the 1st fund, in that it's government managed, and falls under the same basic rules as Unemployment today. You can't just quit and demand the money. You also have to exhaust this fund before you can receive ANY Government assistance. The good news: It's non-taxable income. It can be handed down incase of death. If you retire, it becomes supplemental income.
Although the calculations are more complex, basically the federal unemployment tax on employers is 7%. So you're deeply underfunding unemployment.

Even at the max contributions, it will take years for younger people to put away enough to last even 6 months. The median income for workers between the ages of 24 and 29 is $30,000 a year; at the max of 8%, they're stashing $2400 per year. That's about 1 month's expenses. Under current laws, you're eligible for unemployment after 1 year of work. So basically, you are screwing employees in a big way.

Again, employers will not pass those savings to employees.

Again, if it's voluntary, people won't contribute.

Worse yet, the incentives are absurdly wrong. The money will be locked up unless you get fired -- and the less you contribute, the faster you receive funds from the government. What moron would contribute to that fund?

You're now talking about diverting up to 14% of income. That is not going to happen. Seriously. People with lower incomes cannot afford to save money. People with higher incomes have better and more flexible ways to salt money away for a rainy day.


3. Catastrophic/long term care fund.
Again, Employer pays 1%, you can pay up to 7%. It's nontaxable, can be handed down if you die, and is YOURS. Use of the fund is restricted, you can't fund a boob job, or pay for basic care or non-medical issues. You do have to use it all first before Government assistance can be applied for.
Yet another cluster-****.

Same as unemployment, but with even less of an incentive to contribute. Few people collect Disability, but anyone at any time can need it. No one will contribute, and they will go straight on disability if injured.


These three things would make you own your own future, give you incentive and control over your life.
Your proposals would be complete and utter disasters.

They are based on wishful thinking, a profound misunderstanding of economic behavior, and an ignorance of how similar schemes have worked in the real world. Oh, and a desire to make employers richer at the expense of the employees. They're more complex, less efficient, and won't work.

PASS.
 
You're just blathering class warfare talking points because you lack the intellectual ammunition to discuss the issue rationally.

The irony of this post cannot be overstated. Your OP outlines a change that redistributes wealth from the American public to the rich. That was a class warfare talking point.
 
The employer's portion of SS is currently 6.2%. So you're slashing the employer's contribution to almost nothing, and yeah there is zero chance that saved employer portion will be passed on to the employee.

We know, from decades of observation, that people will not save money if it's optional. You can already contribute up to $5500 a year to a tax-sheltered IRA, and most people don't even do that -- not even the people who are worried that SS won't be around when they retire.

We know, from observation of the Aussie plan and from investor behavior in the US, that most people suck at saving. They routinely get hit with huge fees that erode their savings rate. They pick bad funds. They change funds at the worst possible time.

Plus, Social Security is pay-as-you-go. It is not an IRA. That means that the money collected in payroll taxes today, is spent on beneficiaries today. So every cent that is diverted to any sort of private personal fund? That increases the shortfall that is currently crippling SS.

If we have no restrictions on how the money is withdrawn, then what will happen? People will basically blow through it on retirement; they treat it like a lottery ticket. That's exactly what we see with Australia's system. It's compounded by the need to ensure that the people who do blow through all their savings don't get shafted -- after all, we don't want a system where 85 year olds completely run out of cash, right?

And what happens to Medicare? You do know that is paid for out of the same payroll taxes that fund Social Security, right?



Although the calculations are more complex, basically the federal unemployment tax on employers is 7%. So you're deeply underfunding unemployment.

Even at the max contributions, it will take years for younger people to put away enough to last even 6 months. The median income for workers between the ages of 24 and 29 is $30,000 a year; at the max of 8%, they're stashing $2400 per year. That's about 1 month's expenses. Under current laws, you're eligible for unemployment after 1 year of work. So basically, you are screwing employees in a big way.

Again, employers will not pass those savings to employees.

Again, if it's voluntary, people won't contribute.

Worse yet, the incentives are absurdly wrong. The money will be locked up unless you get fired -- and the less you contribute, the faster you receive funds from the government. What moron would contribute to that fund?

You're now talking about diverting up to 14% of income. That is not going to happen. Seriously. People with lower incomes cannot afford to save money. People with higher incomes have better and more flexible ways to salt money away for a rainy day.



Yet another cluster-****.

Same as unemployment, but with even less of an incentive to contribute. Few people collect Disability, but anyone at any time can need it. No one will contribute, and they will go straight on disability if injured.



Your proposals would be complete and utter disasters.

They are based on wishful thinking, a profound misunderstanding of economic behavior, and an ignorance of how similar schemes have worked in the real world. Oh, and a desire to make employers richer at the expense of the employees. They're more complex, less efficient, and won't work.

PASS.

So raise the amounts, I'm sorry did you think I was inflexible?
 
So raise the amounts, I'm sorry did you think I was inflexible?
I think you didn't read my post.

Raising the amounts -- I assume you mean the employer amounts -- only addresses a tiny portion of my objections. Employees still have no incentive to participate. Most people still won't contribute, because they're living paycheck to paycheck. If you don't restrict withdrawals, people will treat their retirement like a lottery at age 65. People still suck at investing, and fund managers still want to take fat slices of retirement funds in exchange for little work.

It will still take far longer to build up unemployment insurance than the current 1 year, and the less you pay in, the faster you go on government funds. And no one in their right mind will put money into this system for disability.

And again, and perhaps most important: Every penny we divert from Social Security means that the Trust Fund drains faster, and that means we will need to either slash SS benefits, or dramatically increase payroll taxes, or pay SS out of general funds, or all three.

You're not proposing a remotely workable scheme here. You're just imposing your ideology onto these systems, and unsurprisingly in doing so, you show the paucity of said ideology.
 
i'm open to studying the best parts of other first world systems to put together a custom fit solution for the US.

What is "first world?" I don't understand that distinction. No one should claim to understand that distinction.

however, my preference would be to expand Medicare to cover everyone, not just older Americans.

We don't finance Medicare even remotely okay for only the oldest Americans, so expanding a badly funded thing results in an even more pathetically badly funded thing.

The word "Medicare" should be abolished if you want a nationalized health care funding system, because "Medicare" is a word that is invariably going to go down in history as being associated with "the worst funded thing any human civilization has ever created." You want health care for all, it will require significant tax increases, significant benefit cuts to current seniors who enjoy absurd levels of irresponsibility for their own health costs, and significant government regulation of pricing in health care and pharmaceuticals.
 
Imagine if you will, that instead of paying into SS, Medicare and Medicaide adnd the like, you instead on your 18th birthday were setup three accounts.

1. Retirement.
When you begin working, your employer is forced to pay 1% of your of you income to this. You can choose to add up to 7%, pretax, to this fund. This fund is never taxed income. Ever. You can choose, to have it government managed (mostly US Savings bonds and such) or have it managed by a 3rd party , kinda like a 401k. If you pass away before you retire, it goes to who you designate or next of kin. Tax free. It's YOUR SS, but for you, by you.

2. Unemployment.
Again, like the retirement fund, your employer pays 1% of your income into this, you can up up 7% of your pretax into this fund. It's a little different than the 1st fund, in that it's government managed, and falls under the same basic rules as Unemployment today. You can't just quit and demand the money. You also have to exhaust this fund before you can receive ANY Government assistance. The good news: It's non-taxable income. It can be handed down incase of death. If you retire, it becomes supplemental income.

3. Catastrophic/long term care fund.
Again, Employer pays 1%, you can pay up to 7%. It's nontaxable, can be handed down if you die, and is YOURS. Use of the fund is restricted, you can't fund a boob job, or pay for basic care or non-medical issues. You do have to use it all first before Government assistance can be applied for.

These three things would make you own your own future, give you incentive and control over your life.

no thank you safety net please
 
This is a safety net. One you control. One you can pass on, one you own. I guess that's scary for some.

ya its empty if you dont have a job and insufficient if you have crappy ones
 
ya its empty if you dont have a job and insufficient if you have crappy ones

I didn't say there would be nothing else. And yes, if you're poor you get less out of life. Doubly so from the Government. Life... it works like that.
 
I didn't say there would be nothing else. And yes, if you're poor you get less out of life. Doubly so from the Government. Life... it works like that.
well thats good but

did not say you should get more out of life if your poor though maybe we should change it so that you get more help from the government if you need it
 
well thats good but

did not say you should get more out of life if your poor though maybe we should change it so that you get more help from the government if you need it

Why?

You encourage sloth, leeches and generational welfare dependents. If you TRULY need assistance, I'm all for it. If you're able bodied but not being active in making your life better?

Get the **** OUT.
 
Imagine if you will, that instead of paying into SS, Medicare and Medicaide adnd the like, you instead on your 18th birthday were setup three accounts.

1. Retirement.
When you begin working, your employer is forced to pay 1% of your of you income to this. You can choose to add up to 7%, pretax, to this fund. This fund is never taxed income. Ever. You can choose, to have it government managed (mostly US Savings bonds and such) or have it managed by a 3rd party , kinda like a 401k. If you pass away before you retire, it goes to who you designate or next of kin. Tax free. It's YOUR SS, but for you, by you.

2. Unemployment.
Again, like the retirement fund, your employer pays 1% of your income into this, you can up up 7% of your pretax into this fund. It's a little different than the 1st fund, in that it's government managed, and falls under the same basic rules as Unemployment today. You can't just quit and demand the money. You also have to exhaust this fund before you can receive ANY Government assistance. The good news: It's non-taxable income. It can be handed down incase of death. If you retire, it becomes supplemental income.

3. Catastrophic/long term care fund.
Again, Employer pays 1%, you can pay up to 7%. It's nontaxable, can be handed down if you die, and is YOURS. Use of the fund is restricted, you can't fund a boob job, or pay for basic care or non-medical issues. You do have to use it all first before Government assistance can be applied for.

These three things would make you own your own future, give you incentive and control over your life.

I like it. And because it would presume that you would use your non taxable medical fund for general health maintenance just as we pay out of pocket for general maintenance on our cars and homes with insurance reserved for major stuff, insurance premiums to cover the major stuff could and would drop to very affordable ranges.

I would add that insurance would be owned by the person it covered and would go with him/her when he left a job. The employers could contribute so much for insurance coverage if they wanted to, but the employee would own the policy.
 
I like it. And because it would presume that you would use your non taxable medical fund for general health maintenance just as we pay out of pocket for general maintenance on our cars and homes with insurance reserved for major stuff, insurance premiums to cover the major stuff could and would drop to very affordable ranges.

I would add that insurance would be owned by the person it covered and would go with him/her when he left a job. The employers could contribute so much for insurance coverage if they wanted to, but the employee would own the policy.

Hand control back to you, take it away from the bureaucracies, that's what I want.
 
Why?

You encourage sloth, leeches and generational welfare dependents. If you TRULY need assistance, I'm all for it. If you're able bodied but not being active in making your life better?

Get the **** OUT.

These aren't animals, they're human beings. Further, you're completely lost. We are discussing SS, medicare/medicaid, and unemployment insurance- NOT welfare.
 
Imagine if you will, that instead of paying into SS, Medicare and Medicaide adnd the like, you instead on your 18th birthday were setup three accounts.

1. Retirement.
When you begin working, your employer is forced to pay 1% of your of you income to this. You can choose to add up to 7%, pretax, to this fund. This fund is never taxed income. Ever. You can choose, to have it government managed (mostly US Savings bonds and such) or have it managed by a 3rd party , kinda like a 401k. If you pass away before you retire, it goes to who you designate or next of kin. Tax free. It's YOUR SS, but for you, by you.

2. Unemployment.
Again, like the retirement fund, your employer pays 1% of your income into this, you can up up 7% of your pretax into this fund. It's a little different than the 1st fund, in that it's government managed, and falls under the same basic rules as Unemployment today. You can't just quit and demand the money. You also have to exhaust this fund before you can receive ANY Government assistance. The good news: It's non-taxable income. It can be handed down incase of death. If you retire, it becomes supplemental income.

3. Catastrophic/long term care fund.
Again, Employer pays 1%, you can pay up to 7%. It's nontaxable, can be handed down if you die, and is YOURS. Use of the fund is restricted, you can't fund a boob job, or pay for basic care or non-medical issues. You do have to use it all first before Government assistance can be applied for.

These three things would make you own your own future, give you incentive and control over your life.

Greetings, Renae. :2wave:

Excellent post! :thumbs: The only people who might not like your thoughts would be those who apparently think the government is very wise and should make all their decisions for them! In their defense, they may not have ever known any other way of thinking! :mrgreen:
 
Why?

You encourage sloth, leeches and generational welfare dependents. If you TRULY need assistance, I'm all for it. If you're able bodied but not being active in making your life better?

Get the **** OUT.



why is becase some times you need help and its nice if people help 1 another

if you want people to be hard worcking fine dont give them something for nothing make people worck for well fair community service any labor they can do that needs going or even just work for the sake or worck but dont punish them if they cant get anyone to pay them enough to support ther needs
 
Greetings, Renae. :2wave:

Excellent post! :thumbs: The only people who might not like your thoughts would be those who apparently think the government is very wise and should make all their decisions for them! In their defense, they may not have ever known any other way of thinking! :mrgreen:

thats not true some of us just dont make much money and would like to live if things go bad
 
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