Without an electoral college, we do not have a free country.

The vast majority of people do not and probably never will understand the ethics and morals behind the electoral college but without it we are no longer a free, fair and united country.

The electoral college was created to ensure the urban areas of the country could never dominate and make the representation of the rural areas inconsequential.

Even in the very beginning the forefathers understood that the interests of the cities and the interest of the rural areas were often at odds with each other and yet to create a harmonious union, both areas needed to be fairly represented. The major issue is that the cities would always have a unsurmountable advantage when it came to sheer population, but at the same time, the cities were wholly dependent on the rural areas for their needs of life.

In the event that the rural areas were unfairly represented, and their interests not represented in Washington they would withdraw from the Union which was the central issue in the Civil War.

Perhaps we are incapable of learning from our mistakes and destined to repeat them. The elimination of the electoral college would be such a scenario.

So as a result.....the vote of a person in a rural area is worth 4X the vote of someone in an urban area......that doesn't seem very fair and seems very un-American.

disneydude said:

So as a result.....the vote of a person in a rural area is worth 4X the vote of someone in an urban area......that doesn't seem very fair and seems very un-American.

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The OP clearly hates democracy... like ALL supporters of the anachronism that is the Electoral College.

disneydude said:

So as a result.....the vote of a person in a rural area is worth 4X the vote of someone in an urban area......that doesn't seem very fair and seems very un-American.

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It's not fair that people who make more pay more in taxes, either.


But it's not about fairness. It's about what works, and works best.

disneydude said:

So as a result.....the vote of a person in a rural area is worth 4X the vote of someone in an urban area......that doesn't seem very fair and seems very un-American.

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How exactly did you come up with "4x"?

disneydude said:

So as a result.....the vote of a person in a rural area is worth 4X the vote of someone in an urban area......that doesn't seem very fair and seems very un-American.

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So what is your solution to the problem? What system would work better to ensure the cities did not dominate rural areas?

Be careful what you wish for. That would mean Republican votes would actually mean something in California and New York.

Well in 2016 the urban areas are not fairly represented. Their candidate had *3 million* more votes than the white trash candidate and according to you, they would be justified in seceding. Let me tell you too, without those cities and college towns today, the rural areas would be 3rd world. Without CA and NYC, you think leeches like Mississippi would stay afloat under Trump's "leadership"? Hah!

No, the EC was created to ensure the uneducated and uninformed masses would be duped by a tyrant. There's plenty writing by Hamilton and others admitting this. The problem is that now the EC is being used to *enable* those masses to be duped by a tyrant

It has long outlived its purpose and people on both sides hate it, except when it benefits them. I will leave you with this whopper by the man who is profiting from it and who you are glad to see benefit from it:

The electoral college is a disaster for a democracy.

— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) November 7, 2012

And when he thought Romney had lost the election but won the popular vote:



He lost the popular vote by a lot and won the election. We should have a revolution in this country!

— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) November 7, 2012

The phoney electoral college made a laughing stock out of our nation. The loser one!

— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) November 7, 2012

We can't let this happen. We should march on Washington and stop this travesty. Our nation is totally divided!

— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) November 7, 2012

Lets fight like hell and stop this great and disgusting injustice! The world is laughing at us.

— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) November 7, 2012


So i guess then he would have no problem with a violent populist takeover of Washington now and you can both admit his taking office is an injustice

KevinKohler said:

It's not fair that people who make more pay more in taxes, either.


But it's not about fairness. It's about what works, and works best.

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Good point but numerical "fairness" only matters in some areas.

The 16A ruined that idea as far as federal taxation goes. I would prefer a per congress critter federal taxation system - divide the last year's federal spending by 535 and have that amount paid by each from state funds.

X Factor said:

Be careful what you wish for. That would mean Republican votes would actually mean something in California and New York.

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Are you suggesting 3 million more republicans would've voted for Trump in those states alone if the popular vote determined elections? There's probably not 3 million republicans in total in CA

Also this would be offset by plenty of Dems in red states turning out because their votes suddenly mattered. While Trump barely won purple states with already high turnout in the rust belt, there is a metric ton of Dems in the south, particularly in places like Atlanta and New Orleans, who would've turned out

But this does make the valid point that the EC discourages democracy in multiple ways, including low turnout

jdog said:

The vast majority of people do not and probably never will understand the ethics and morals behind the electoral college but without it we are no longer a free, fair and united country.

The electoral college was created to ensure the urban areas of the country could never dominate and make the representation of the rural areas inconsequential.

Even in the very beginning the forefathers understood that the interests of the cities and the interest of the rural areas were often at odds with each other and yet to create a harmonious union, both areas needed to be fairly represented. The major issue is that the cities would always have a unsurmountable advantage when it came to sheer population, but at the same time, the cities were wholly dependent on the rural areas for their needs of life.

In the event that the rural areas were unfairly represented, and their interests not represented in Washington they would withdraw from the Union which was the central issue in the Civil War.

Perhaps we are incapable of learning from our mistakes and destined to repeat them. The elimination of the electoral college would be such a scenario.

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So all other democracies on earth are unfree because they lack an electoral college? That's bizarre. I also find your intentional reference to the Civil War highly ironic.

jdog said:

The vast majority of people do not and probably never will understand the ethics and morals behind the electoral college but without it we are no longer a free, fair and united country.

The electoral college was created to ensure the urban areas of the country could never dominate and make the representation of the rural areas inconsequential.

Even in the very beginning the forefathers understood that the interests of the cities and the interest of the rural areas were often at odds with each other and yet to create a harmonious union, both areas needed to be fairly represented. The major issue is that the cities would always have a unsurmountable advantage when it came to sheer population, but at the same time, the cities were wholly dependent on the rural areas for their needs of life.

In the event that the rural areas were unfairly represented, and their interests not represented in Washington they would withdraw from the Union which was the central issue in the Civil War.

Perhaps we are incapable of learning from our mistakes and destined to repeat them. The elimination of the electoral college would be such a scenario.

Click to expand...

Wrong. The electoral college was created because the founding fathers didn't trust dumb yahoos to be knowledgable enough to participate in a more direct form of democracy. You're confusing a result for the design.

disneydude said:

So as a result.....the vote of a person in a rural area is worth 4X the vote of someone in an urban area......that doesn't seem very fair and seems very un-American.

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All you need do is move to a rural community. It's a free land.

RickJames3000 said:

The OP clearly hates democracy... like ALL supporters of the anachronism that is the Electoral College.

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On what basis do you base your opinion the Electoral College is anachronistic? It cannot be system or citizens' security or efficiency.

the electoral college is an essential tradition which must not be sullied when your team wins the electoral but loses the popular vote, and a travesty against democracy when your team loses the electoral but wins the popular vote. had it flipped the other way, these threads would be a mirror image.

my preference is to leave the electoral college as it is. in doing so, we have to accept that the electors might look at a candidate who is grossly unfit and decide to prevent him or her from taking office. that's why the system exists. i don't advocate doing that in the current situation, though.

joG said:

On what basis do you base your opinion the Electoral College is anachronistic? It cannot be system or citizens' security or efficiency.

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Why would you ask a question and follow it directly with qualifications like that?
Just ask the question you really want to ask.

disneydude said:

So as a result.....the vote of a person in a rural area is worth 4X the vote of someone in an urban area......that doesn't seem very fair and seems very un-American.

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show me the 4x, post the evidence

RickJames3000 said:

The OP clearly hates democracy... like ALL supporters of the anachronism that is the Electoral College.

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well it is true the founders hated democratic forms of government, because they are not good and stable.

mixed government is the only good government.

Sherman123 said:

So all other democracies on earth are unfree because they lack an electoral college? That's bizarre. I also find your intentional reference to the Civil War highly ironic.

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a democratic form of government is not a good and stable government.

Cardinal said:

Wrong. The electoral college was created because the founding fathers didn't trust dumb yahoos to be knowledgable enough to participate in a more direct form of democracy. You're confusing a result for the design.

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....and the design is quite good under the premise that one wants a functional democratic society that is durable and adaptive.

Cardinal said:

Wrong. The electoral college was created because the founding fathers didn't trust dumb yahoos to be knowledgable enough to participate in a more direct form of democracy. You're confusing a result for the design.

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this is true, but they did give the people a direct voice in government and its called the house of representatives

jdog said:

The vast majority of people do not and probably never will understand the ethics and morals behind the electoral college but without it we are no longer a free, fair and united country.

The electoral college was created to ensure the urban areas of the country could never dominate and make the representation of the rural areas inconsequential.

Even in the very beginning the forefathers understood that the interests of the cities and the interest of the rural areas were often at odds with each other and yet to create a harmonious union, both areas needed to be fairly represented. The major issue is that the cities would always have a unsurmountable advantage when it came to sheer population, but at the same time, the cities were wholly dependent on the rural areas for their needs of life.

In the event that the rural areas were unfairly represented, and their interests not represented in Washington they would withdraw from the Union which was the central issue in the Civil War.

Perhaps we are incapable of learning from our mistakes and destined to repeat them. The elimination of the electoral college would be such a scenario.

Click to expand...

Hamilton in Federalist 68 disagrees with you:

It was equally desirable, that the immediate election should be made by men most capable of analyzing the qualities adapted to the station, and acting under circumstances favorable to deliberation, and to a judicious combination of all the reasons and inducements which were proper to govern their choice. A small number of persons, selected by their fellow-citizens from the general mass, will be most likely to possess the information and discernment requisite to such complicated investigations.

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Do try and learn your history before trying to lecture others on it.

From John Adams to Benjamin Rush, 4 April 1790 -- Nation under Heaven ever was, now is, or ever will be qualified for a Republican Government, unless you mean by these Words, Equal Laws resulting from a Ballance of three Powers the Monarchical, Aristocratical & Democratical. I meant more and I now repeat more explicitly, that Americans are peculiarly unfit for any Republic but the Aristo-Democratical-Monarchy

Redress said:

Hamilton in Federalist 68 disagrees with you:



Do try and learn your history before trying to lecture others on it.

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:lamo you know less then he does

Master PO said:

:lamo you know less then he does

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You don't think Hamilton knows what he is talking about? Your random claim with no backing should be worth what exactly?