Thwarting the will of the Majority[W:99]

haymarket · Nov 20, 2016

Abraham Lincoln famously called our system a government of the people, by the people and for the people. Lincoln acknowledged that at the very core of our system is the notion of WE THE PEOPLE. And in a nations such as ours - it is vital and crucial that the people have faith in their government and accept the mechanisms of power as legitimate and fair. Because when they do not, the very fabric of our system begins to fray and unravel and we cannot last for long under those conditions.

My local paper - the Detroit Free Press - has an excellent opinion piece today on the mechanism thwarting he will of the people. It focuses on the Electoral College and partisan gerrymandering. I provide it here

Nation can't survive system that distorts the majority's will

I would ask that if you post here you first read it. The writer presents a very good case for reforming both the EC and the gerrymandering process that has become so evident around the nation and in Michigan in particular.

In each of the last two election cycles, more Michigan voters cast their ballots for Democratic congressional and legislative candidates than for their Republican opponents. Yet Republicans continue to maintain a comfortable 9-5 advantage over Democrats in the U.S. House, and a 63-47 majority in the Michigan House.
And this gap between voter preference and legislative representation is likely to grow even wider if Republicans continue to dominate the reapportionment process, in which Michigan and other states reconfigure themselves every 10 years into new legislative and congressional districts.

So a majority of voters cast their votes for Democrats in both the national Congress and in the Michigan House but the GOP ends up with far more seats due to gerrymandering.

How is that government of the people by the people and for the people?

I can see how and why some partisan Republicans will fight against ending the EC since they perceive an obvious real advantage as evidenced by the election of Bush in 2000 and Trump in 2016. But the issue here is one far greater than mere partisan advantage - it is the faith of the American people in our very system of government and their own role in it.

Also in todays Free Press is an excellent piece by Editor Stephen Henderson on the racist roots of the Electoral College.

The electoral college and its racist roots

This needs more publicity and attention than it usually gets.

Its time we do something about these two issues which treated to undermine - and possibly destroy - the faith of the American people in the very concept of a government of the people, by the people and for the people. WE THE PEOPLE demand it.

jamesrage · Nov 20, 2016

Re: Thwarting the will of the Majority

haymarket said:
Abraham Lincoln famously called our system a government of the people, by the people and for the people. Lincoln acknowledged that at the very core of our system is the notion of WE THE PEOPLE. And in a nations such as ours - it is vital and crucial that the people have faith in their government and accept the mechanisms of power as legitimate and fair. Because when they do not, the very fabric of our system begins to fray and unravel and we cannot last for long under those conditions.

My local paper - the Detroit Free Press - has an excellent opinion piece today on the mechanism thwarting he will of the people. It focuses on the Electoral College and partisan gerrymandering. I provide it here

Nation can't survive system that distorts the majority's will

I would ask that if you post here you first read it. The writer presents a very good case for reforming both the EC and the gerrymandering process that has become so evident around the nation and in Michigan in particular.

So a majority of voters cast their votes for Democrats in both the national Congress and in the Michigan House but the GOP ends up with far more seats due to gerrymandering.

How is that government of the people by the people and for the people?

I can see how and why some partisan Republicans will fight against ending the EC since they perceive an obvious real advantage as evidenced by the election of Bush in 2000 and Trump in 2016. But the issue here is one far greater than mere partisan advantage - it is the faith of the American people in our very system of government and their own role in it.

Also in todays Free Press is an excellent piece by Editor Stephen Henderson on the racist roots of the Electoral College.

The electoral college and its racist roots

This needs more publicity and attention than it usually gets.

Its time we do something about these two issues which treated to undermine - and possibly destroy - the faith of the American people in the very concept of a government of the people, by the people and for the people. WE THE PEOPLE demand it.

Oh good another waa my side lost so we should wipe our ass with the constitution thread.

Maybe the libs need a whambulance instead.

Praxas · Nov 20, 2016

Re: Thwarting the will of the Majority

haymarket said:
Abraham Lincoln famously called our system a government of the people, by the people and for the people. Lincoln acknowledged that at the very core of our system is the notion of WE THE PEOPLE. And in a nations such as ours - it is vital and crucial that the people have faith in their government and accept the mechanisms of power as legitimate and fair. Because when they do not, the very fabric of our system begins to fray and unravel and we cannot last for long under those conditions.

My local paper - the Detroit Free Press - has an excellent opinion piece today on the mechanism thwarting he will of the people. It focuses on the Electoral College and partisan gerrymandering. I provide it here

Nation can't survive system that distorts the majority's will

I would ask that if you post here you first read it. The writer presents a very good case for reforming both the EC and the gerrymandering process that has become so evident around the nation and in Michigan in particular.

So a majority of voters cast their votes for Democrats in both the national Congress and in the Michigan House but the GOP ends up with far more seats due to gerrymandering.

How is that government of the people by the people and for the people?

I can see how and why some partisan Republicans will fight against ending the EC since they perceive an obvious real advantage as evidenced by the election of Bush in 2000 and Trump in 2016. But the issue here is one far greater than mere partisan advantage - it is the faith of the American people in our very system of government and their own role in it.

Also in todays Free Press is an excellent piece by Editor Stephen Henderson on the racist roots of the Electoral College.

The electoral college and its racist roots

This needs more publicity and attention than it usually gets.

Its time we do something about these two issues which treated to undermine - and possibly destroy - the faith of the American people in the very concept of a government of the people, by the people and for the people. WE THE PEOPLE demand it.

Here's a real question. If trump had won the popular vote and lost the EC do you really think these people calling for changing the EC would be calling for this now? You and I both know the real answer would be a resounding no.

I voted against Trump but there comes a time when you just have to accept it happens.

late · Nov 20, 2016

Re: Thwarting the will of the Majority

Praxas said:
Here's a real question. If trump had won the popular vote and lost the EC do you really think these people calling for changing the EC would be calling for this?

Intellectuals like me have been advocating for doing away with the Electoral College since the 70s.

It's a time bomb.

code1211 · Nov 20, 2016

Re: Thwarting the will of the Majority

haymarket said:
Abraham Lincoln famously called our system a government of the people, by the people and for the people. Lincoln acknowledged that at the very core of our system is the notion of WE THE PEOPLE. And in a nations such as ours - it is vital and crucial that the people have faith in their government and accept the mechanisms of power as legitimate and fair. Because when they do not, the very fabric of our system begins to fray and unravel and we cannot last for long under those conditions.

My local paper - the Detroit Free Press - has an excellent opinion piece today on the mechanism thwarting he will of the people. It focuses on the Electoral College and partisan gerrymandering. I provide it here

Nation can't survive system that distorts the majority's will

I would ask that if you post here you first read it. The writer presents a very good case for reforming both the EC and the gerrymandering process that has become so evident around the nation and in Michigan in particular.

So a majority of voters cast their votes for Democrats in both the national Congress and in the Michigan House but the GOP ends up with far more seats due to gerrymandering.

How is that government of the people by the people and for the people?

I can see how and why some partisan Republicans will fight against ending the EC since they perceive an obvious real advantage as evidenced by the election of Bush in 2000 and Trump in 2016. But the issue here is one far greater than mere partisan advantage - it is the faith of the American people in our very system of government and their own role in it.

Also in todays Free Press is an excellent piece by Editor Stephen Henderson on the racist roots of the Electoral College.

The electoral college and its racist roots

This needs more publicity and attention than it usually gets.

Its time we do something about these two issues which treated to undermine - and possibly destroy - the faith of the American people in the very concept of a government of the people, by the people and for the people. WE THE PEOPLE demand it.

The system is set up to represent the voice of the various states, not the voice of the various individuals.

The election rules and laws are set state-by-state. The votes are tabulated within each state and then the results of the state's election are reflected by the electors sent to the EC.

We do not live in a Democracy. The EC was set up to assure that smaller states would have a voice in the election of the president.

This is also why the Congress is set up with both a House and a Senate. One of the Chambers is reflective of the population and the other is reflective of the importance of Statehood.

What you are asking for is a Constitutional Convention. Before doing this, though, you may want to review Article One.

Orly? · Nov 20, 2016

Re: Thwarting the will of the Majority

late said:
leftists like me have been advocating for doing away with the Electoral College since the 70s.

It hurts our voter importation agenda.

fify..

Helix · Nov 20, 2016

Re: Thwarting the will of the Majority

we all agreed on the rules going in. if we want to change the EC system, that will take an amendment, which is unlikely to happen. what we can and should address is gerrymandering.

Orly? · Nov 20, 2016

Re: Thwarting the will of the Majority

haymarket said:
-snip-

IDK about everyone else bit I sure aitn reading all that drivel, especially when I see a link accusing the EC of being racist, lol..

Really? Get over it already..

late · Nov 20, 2016

Re: Thwarting the will of the Majority

Orly? said:
fify..

If there is one thing I expect from you... oh wait, sorry, there's nothing.

Fact is, the assertion was wrong.

Harry Guerrilla · Nov 20, 2016

Re: Thwarting the will of the Majority

haymarket said:
Abraham Lincoln famously called our system a government of the people, by the people and for the people. Lincoln acknowledged that at the very core of our system is the notion of WE THE PEOPLE. And in a nations such as ours - it is vital and crucial that the people have faith in their government and accept the mechanisms of power as legitimate and fair. Because when they do not, the very fabric of our system begins to fray and unravel and we cannot last for long under those conditions.

My local paper - the Detroit Free Press - has an excellent opinion piece today on the mechanism thwarting he will of the people. It focuses on the Electoral College and partisan gerrymandering. I provide it here

Nation can't survive system that distorts the majority's will

I would ask that if you post here you first read it. The writer presents a very good case for reforming both the EC and the gerrymandering process that has become so evident around the nation and in Michigan in particular.

So a majority of voters cast their votes for Democrats in both the national Congress and in the Michigan House but the GOP ends up with far more seats due to gerrymandering.

How is that government of the people by the people and for the people?

I can see how and why some partisan Republicans will fight against ending the EC since they perceive an obvious real advantage as evidenced by the election of Bush in 2000 and Trump in 2016. But the issue here is one far greater than mere partisan advantage - it is the faith of the American people in our very system of government and their own role in it.

Also in todays Free Press is an excellent piece by Editor Stephen Henderson on the racist roots of the Electoral College.

The electoral college and its racist roots

This needs more publicity and attention than it usually gets.

Its time we do something about these two issues which treated to undermine - and possibly destroy - the faith of the American people in the very concept of a government of the people, by the people and for the people. WE THE PEOPLE demand it.

The EC is a system of compromise.
Otherwise you have (largely) urban centers being in charge of the vast majority of all politics for the nation.
That isn't a fair or just system of governance, in my opinion.

Orly? · Nov 20, 2016

Re: Thwarting the will of the Majority

The EC is not going to change..

Dare I say "most", leftists even have settled in their defeat and are not calling for the EC to be thrown out..

The president represents the states, not the people of California..

Red_Dave · Nov 20, 2016

Re: Thwarting the will of the Majority

jamesrage said:
Oh good another waa my side lost so we should wipe our ass with the constitution thread.View attachment 67210144

If the constitution is wrong then why the hell not?

Orly? · Nov 20, 2016

Re: Thwarting the will of the Majority

late said:
If there is one thing I expect from you... oh wait, sorry, there's nothing.

Fact is, the assertion was wrong.

You're wrong!! (throws rattle on floor)

You lost according to the rules and now want to change the rules.. Good luck with that.. I bet you $100 it ain't gonna happen..

PeteEU · Nov 20, 2016

Re: Thwarting the will of the Majority

There has been 5 situations through US history where the President was elected and did not have the popular vote..

1) John Quincy Adams won over Andrew Jackson who got the popular vote. John Quincy Adams was of the Federalist Party.. does not exist anymore. This happened in the 1824 election.
2) Rutherford B. Hayes won over Samuel Tilden who got the popular vote. Hayes was a Republican. This happened in the 1876 election.
3) Benjamin Harrison won over Grover Cleveland who got the popular vote. Harrison was a Republican. This happened in the 1888 election.
4) George W. Bush won over Al Gore who got the popular vote. Bush was/is a Republican. This happened in the 2000 election.
5) Donald Trump won over Hilary Clinton who got the popular vote. Trump is a Republican. This happened in the 2016 election.

There is a clear pattern here... the undemocratic election wins where the the one with the least amount of popular votes wins.. almost exclusively happens in the Republicans favour...

There is a clear flaw in the electoral college system if it allows this situation to happen, because it is certainly not designed to happen this way. That if favours one party almost exclusively, means that it will be hard as hell to get changed, especially when that party is in absolute power at the moment. Add to that, the massive gerrymandering by the GOP over the last 15+ years... something that only will continue since they have gained in state elections.. then what is left of the US democratic system, is under a serious threat.

IF the GOP starts pushing to give EC votes based on congressional districts.. then the end of the US being democratic will be close at hand.

Tigerace117 · Nov 20, 2016

Re: Thwarting the will of the Majority

Red_Dave said:
If the constitution is wrong then why the hell not?

The Constitution isn't wrong though.

Some people just can't take the fact that everybody doesn't think the same way as they do.

late · Nov 20, 2016

Re: Thwarting the will of the Majority

Helix said:
we all agreed on the rules going in. if we want to change the EC system, that will take an amendment, which is unlikely to happen. what we can and should address is gerrymandering.

" Proposing amendments to the constitution tends to get you branded a nut in contemporary discourse, but constitutional amendments used to be socially acceptable; five have been ratified in my lifetime, most recently in 1992, and I’m considerably younger than Trump.

Still, if constitutional amendments scare you, consider the National Popular Vote Plan... States that sign on to the compact agree to award all their electors to whichever presidential candidate wins the national popular vote—though not until there are enough state signatories to decide the election. That takes 270 electors (out of 538 total). The compact is already more than halfway there, with 165.

However it’s achieved, the Electoral College plainly has outlived whatever usefulness it once had."

The Trouble With the Electoral College - POLITICO Magazine

jamesrage · Nov 20, 2016

Re: Thwarting the will of the Majority

Red_Dave said:
If the constitution is wrong then why the hell not?

The Constitution is not wrong. The people wanting to ban the electoral college are just crybabies who are upset their candidate lost.If the situation was reverse then these same people would be glad to have the electoral college and all of a sudden those people would start to pretend that they care about the Constitution.

Fletch · Nov 20, 2016

Re: Thwarting the will of the Majority

late said:
Intellectuals like me

I have never heard anyone refer to himself as an intellectual. I know liberals think of themselves as intellectuals and smarter than the ignorant masses, but I have never seen one so pompous as to actually say it out loud. Let me help you here my friend: If you are smart, people will tell you. If you have to boast of your own brilliance, you aren't nearly as smart as you think you are.

Orly? · Nov 20, 2016

Re: Thwarting the will of the Majority

PeteEU said:
There is a clear pattern here... the undemocratic election wins where the the one with the least amount of popular votes wins.. almost exclusively happens in the Republicans favour...

Because the people the left are trying to quash are republicans and more rural states vote republican all across the country when you have hotspots of liebarrels only in dense cities..

Does this look like blue won? Right, so get over it..

Renae · Nov 20, 2016

Re: Thwarting the will of the Majority

haymarket said:
Abraham Lincoln famously called our system a government of the people, by the people and for the people. Lincoln acknowledged that at the very core of our system is the notion of WE THE PEOPLE. And in a nations such as ours - it is vital and crucial that the people have faith in their government and accept the mechanisms of power as legitimate and fair. Because when they do not, the very fabric of our system begins to fray and unravel and we cannot last for long under those conditions.

My local paper - the Detroit Free Press - has an excellent opinion piece today on the mechanism thwarting he will of the people. It focuses on the Electoral College and partisan gerrymandering. I provide it here

Nation can't survive system that distorts the majority's will

I would ask that if you post here you first read it. The writer presents a very good case for reforming both the EC and the gerrymandering process that has become so evident around the nation and in Michigan in particular.

So a majority of voters cast their votes for Democrats in both the national Congress and in the Michigan House but the GOP ends up with far more seats due to gerrymandering.

How is that government of the people by the people and for the people?

I can see how and why some partisan Republicans will fight against ending the EC since they perceive an obvious real advantage as evidenced by the election of Bush in 2000 and Trump in 2016. But the issue here is one far greater than mere partisan advantage - it is the faith of the American people in our very system of government and their own role in it.

Also in todays Free Press is an excellent piece by Editor Stephen Henderson on the racist roots of the Electoral College.

The electoral college and its racist roots

This needs more publicity and attention than it usually gets.

Its time we do something about these two issues which treated to undermine - and possibly destroy - the faith of the American people in the very concept of a government of the people, by the people and for the people. WE THE PEOPLE demand it.

Considering we are not a Democracy, but a Representative Republic built on moderating the inherent dangers of a democracy, this article is written by an uneducated and ignorant oaf.

Fletch · Nov 20, 2016

Re: Thwarting the will of the Majority

PeteEU said:
There has been 5 situations through US history where the President was elected and did not have the popular vote..

1) John Quincy Adams won over Andrew Jackson who got the popular vote. John Quincy Adams was of the Federalist Party.. does not exist anymore. This happened in the 1824 election.
2) Rutherford B. Hayes won over Samuel Tilden who got the popular vote. Hayes was a Republican. This happened in the 1876 election.
3) Benjamin Harrison won over Grover Cleveland who got the popular vote. Harrison was a Republican. This happened in the 1888 election.
4) George W. Bush won over Al Gore who got the popular vote. Bush was/is a Republican. This happened in the 2000 election.
5) Donald Trump won over Hilary Clinton who got the popular vote. Trump is a Republican. This happened in the 2016 election.

There is a clear pattern here... the undemocratic election wins where the the one with the least amount of popular votes wins.. almost exclusively happens in the Republicans favour...

There is a clear flaw in the electoral college system if it allows this situation to happen, because it is certainly not designed to happen this way. That if favours one party almost exclusively, means that it will be hard as hell to get changed, especially when that party is in absolute power at the moment. Add to that, the massive gerrymandering by the GOP over the last 15+ years... something that only will continue since they have gained in state elections.. then what is left of the US democratic system, is under a serious threat.

IF the GOP starts pushing to give EC votes based on congressional districts.. then the end of the US being democratic will be close at hand.

Do you have a link to where you complained about the EC prior to the election? You know, when it looked like Hillary had an electoral lock? I didn't think so.

sanman · Nov 20, 2016

Re: Thwarting the will of the Majority

So, to summarize OP:

haymarket · Nov 20, 2016

Re: Thwarting the will of the Majority

Praxas said:
Here's a real question. If trump had won the popular vote and lost the EC do you really think these people calling for changing the EC would be calling for this now? You and I both know the real answer would be a resounding no.

I voted against Trump but there comes a time when you just have to accept it happens.

Did you even read the piece?

haymarket · Nov 20, 2016

Re: Thwarting the will of the Majority

jamesrage said:
Oh good another waa my side lost so we should wipe our ass with the constitution thread.

Did you even read the piece?

haymarket · Nov 20, 2016

Re: Thwarting the will of the Majority

code1211 said:
The system is set up to represent the voice of the various states, not the voice of the various individuals.

Can you explain to us all how you can have a state expressing its opinion without the individuals who actually make up the state?

Thwarting the will of the Majority[W:99]

Libertarian socialist