The jobs aren't coming back

Deuce · Nov 8, 2016

Hypothetical said:
of course you should , because as one poster told me, globalism makes people a lot of money...

because that's what Globalism is, of course... making use of what amounts to slave labor. which in turn puts a lot of money in just a few people's hands back over here, since there are no tariff's or anything to gain access to what amounts to our biggest advantage.. for now.. our huge consumer market... thus of course any corporate entity is going to go for that efficiency, its all about maximizing profits.

and all they have to do, is sell out and screw over the rest of the country. whats the problem?

No problem. Capitalism.

Hypothetical · Nov 8, 2016

Deuce said:
No problem. Capitalism.

...that is out of control and needs regulation..

in the form of MORE capitalism, which is regulating the access to our biggest commodity to maximize OUR profits as a country. if you want to sell your slave wage made crap to us, you have to pay us to gain access.

entry fee is what is needed.

iguanaman · Nov 8, 2016

reinoe said:
You're wrong. The Chinese panels are JUST AS GOOD as the American ones, but they're cheaper because the Chinese government subsidized their manufacture. WHOOPS! If the liberals were paying attention they'd have put 2x2 together about American solar panel industry got hurt real bad+the only thing that stopped the bleeding of American jobs were TARIFFS!

Even now our Solar Panel industry can't truly recover because there are HUNDREDS of warehouses full of Unused solar panels from China.

I have never seen such a lack of faith in America. We are perfectly capable of competing in the world market. In fact we can dominate it. But not through tariffs. Trade barriers are a 19th century anachronism because they failed in every case. We can lead the world in solar tech too. Take a look at these solar panels from Tesla. They are made of textured glass and last longer than traditional roofs and look better too.

https://techcrunch.com/2016/10/28/these-are-teslas-stunning-new-solar-roof-tiles-for-homes/

Helix · Nov 8, 2016

The jobs aren't coming back

the solution that i see is to guarantee the same debt free access to post secondary education / job training that is the status quo for secondary education.

justabubba · Nov 8, 2016

Incisor said:
Government wasn't the cause of $18/hr jobs moving to China where they pay $18/day. That's all corporate greed. Unless you're saying we should work for the same wages and in the same conditions as Chinese workers do.

that's not corporate greed
that is just sound business sense
the board/management of the corporation has a fiduciary obligation to the shareholders, to enhance the value of the corporation's shares
NOT to the corporation's employees
and NOT to the USA

truthatallcost · Nov 8, 2016

We've become a plastic society that settles for anything. Inferior Chinese goods, low wage service jobs, rampant corporate greed that strangles the life out of the American worker. These things are all completely acceptable to most people who are so saturated with reality TV and apathy, that any trick can be played on them and they blindly go along with it.

eohrnberger · Nov 8, 2016

Fenton said:
Lol......

Lets just do the "equations" and pretend your really not pushing for a " Green Jobs part deux ".

Rule of thumb, a typical commercial building needs close to 3 watts per sq ft and the typical solar voltaic panel produces 8 to 10 watts per sq ft.

The General Services Administration, the Govt body that handles all the Govt buildings just so happens to keep track of total lease space owned and leased.

Its close to 380 million sq ft. At 3 watts per sq ft thats a electrical load of 1.14 Gigawatts. Divide by 10 watts per sq ft and its a solar array 114 000,000 sq ft solar array or 4 sq miles of solar panels

The Pentagon is 6.6 sq ft on its own at 3 watts per sq ft so its total electrical load of 20 megawatts. The Pentagon alone would need 2,000,000 Sq ft of solar panels and that doesn't include a data center sized building to hold the batteries and inverters to power the building when its cloudy, or when its dark.

And then there's Germany, who's own renewable energy initiative failed miserably. Theyre cutting back rewable energy subsidies sharply this year as the average German pays 3 times per KWH what the average American pays

Germany Votes To Abandon Most Green Energy Subsidies | The Daily Caller

So what you are saying, Fenton, is that even at 3 times the price for electricity, solar still isn't economical, given the current market and business conditions as well as the current level of solar panel efficiency.

I had said for a long time now, already, that if you really, really want a green energy solution, make one that beats the current solution on price (without loading in a bunch of unrelated costs just to make it seem competitive - that'll never sell in the market).
A solution that the market perceives as costing less, without government coercion and market distortion, the market will beat a path to that solution provider's door and flip about as quickly as humanly able to do so.'

Until then, knock it off with the green technology government life support. All it does is waste money, and result in failed and idle green technology infrastructure once the government life support is withdrawn. Better to spend that money on existing infrastructure that needs repairs, rebuilding, and maintenance.

eohrnberger · Nov 8, 2016

iguanaman said:
I have never seen such a lack of faith in America. We are perfectly capable of competing in the world market. In fact we can dominate it. But not through tariffs. Trade barriers are a 19th century anachronism because they failed in every case. We can lead the world in solar tech too. Take a look at these solar panels from Tesla. They are made of textured glass and last longer than traditional roofs and look better too.

https://techcrunch.com/2016/10/28/these-are-teslas-stunning-new-solar-roof-tiles-for-homes/

While nice and all, do they beat the fundamental physics realities that Fenton brought to light in his post?

If not, then it's hardly a lack of faith in America, its just scientific facts and realities.

Fearandloathing · Nov 8, 2016

Incisor said:
OK everyone. We have to be realistic. The manufacturing jobs are not coming back. The jobs from the 50's and 60's that the Olds like to romanticize are gone and will not return. The only way those jobs come back is if American workers work for the same wage and in the same conditions that the Chinese workers do. And that just ain't happening. So now, the jobs that used to be considered "working class" are gone and nothing has filled that void. However, there has been an increase in service jobs. So if service jobs are now the new working class, those working those jobs must get a wage we traditionally think working class folks should get. If we're not going to do that, then we are going to have to continue with these benefits programs you loathe so much in order to make up the gap between a minimum wage and a living wage. That's the only way the equation works, folks.

Now if you want these manufacturing jobs, you're going to have to figuratively manufacture them. You do that via government mandate. Something along the lines of; by a certain date, all federal buildings must get their energy from 100% renewable sources and those sources have to be manufactured in the USA. To get the industry started, the US military puts in an order of X solar panels for all their bases worldwide, and that order is filled by a domestic manufacture who gets crazy tax credits to retrofit those old car plants in Detroit to make solar panels. It would be a huge undertaking, but one we have to do if we aren't content with having service jobs as the new working class.

I don't have to guess, it's obvious you've little or no research in solar power.

Even IF they were a reliable solution, they'll never be manufactured here. You made that point yourself:

"The only way those jobs come back is if American workers work for the same wage and in the same conditions that the Chinese workers do."

I have been saying it since NAFTA was passed. North America has to diversify its economy to compensate for the lower wages elsewhere, into medical technology and sop forth. However Intel, Texas Instruments, Microsoft and all the leading tech firms have to import educated engineers from Asia, Canada and Mexico.

The days of the 60's are over, auto manufacturing actually employs fewer people than you might think, it's called robotics. Whirlpool just boasted that their appliances are never touched by human hands until it's installed.

Good luck with solar panels

Northern Light · Nov 8, 2016

The irony is that the global market which our country played a huge role in shaping is now working against us in a few key ways.

We still have a lot of control in the stakes though.

imagep · Nov 8, 2016

Fletch said:
Why not do that with steel? Or textiles? Why wait for solar panels?

Maybe because we need to be more energy independent, and regardless of whether global warming is even a thing, we should all agree that a clean environment is preferable to a poison filled one. But certainly we could have a "made in the usa" requirement for all government purchases.

iguanaman · Nov 8, 2016

eohrnberger said:
While nice and all, do they beat the fundamental physics realities that Fenton brought to light in his post?

If not, then it's hardly a lack of faith in America, its just scientific facts and realities.

What fundamental physics are you talking about? The goal with these roofs is not total dependency on them for all power. It is to make roofs that cost the same as conventional roofs when taking the savings from power generation into account. Everyone needs a roof covering and why not have one that looks great and generates power too? They last longer too. The green energy solution will not come from any one source but a conglomeration of solar, wind, hydro, geothermal and yes nuclear.

Incisor · Nov 8, 2016

Fearandloathing said:
I don't have to guess, it's obvious you've little or no research in solar power.

Apparently, Conservatives seem to have quite the hard time reading posts fully and comprehensively.

Here's what I actually said directly to your point:

Now if you want these manufacturing jobs, you're going to have to figuratively manufacture them. You do that via government mandate. Something along the lines of; by a certain date, all federal buildings must get their energy from 100% renewable sources and those sources have to be manufactured in the USA.

So what we have here with that "post" of yours was an attempt at trolling. What you did was take just the parts of the post that you had talking points for, and ignored the parts that you didn't. So what ends up happening is that you end up arguing a straw man. Which is what you've done.

eohrnberger · Nov 8, 2016

iguanaman said:
What fundamental physics are you talking about? The goal with these roofs is not total dependency on them for all power. It is to make roofs that cost the same as conventional roofs when taking the savings from power generation into account. Everyone needs a roof covering and why not have one that looks great and generates power too? They last longer too. The green energy solution will not come from any one source but a conglomeration of solar, wind, hydro, geothermal and yes nuclear.

The fundamental physics of the matter is that the current energy sources contain so much concentrated energy that the green alternative sources, at their present level of development, can't compete in the market on a cost competitive basis.

And old IBM saying, it's not first to market that wins, it's the close second to the market that makes it cost competitive that wins.

katzgar · Nov 8, 2016

Incisor said:
OK everyone. We have to be realistic. The manufacturing jobs are not coming back. The jobs from the 50's and 60's that the Olds like to romanticize are gone and will not return. The only way those jobs come back is if American workers work for the same wage and in the same conditions that the Chinese workers do. And that just ain't happening. So now, the jobs that used to be considered "working class" are gone and nothing has filled that void. However, there has been an increase in service jobs. So if service jobs are now the new working class, those working those jobs must get a wage we traditionally think working class folks should get. If we're not going to do that, then we are going to have to continue with these benefits programs you loathe so much in order to make up the gap between a minimum wage and a living wage. That's the only way the equation works, folks.

Now if you want these manufacturing jobs, you're going to have to figuratively manufacture them. You do that via government mandate. Something along the lines of; by a certain date, all federal buildings must get their energy from 100% renewable sources and those sources have to be manufactured in the USA. To get the industry started, the US military puts in an order of X solar panels for all their bases worldwide, and that order is filled by a domestic manufacture who gets crazy tax credits to retrofit those old car plants in Detroit to make solar panels. It would be a huge undertaking, but one we have to do if we aren't content with having service jobs as the new working class.

japan, china, india and other developing countries are shedding mfg jobs just like we are. The real issue is automation. Outsourcing Not the Culprit in Manufacturing Job Loss | Automation World

iguanaman · Nov 8, 2016

eohrnberger said:
The fundamental physics of the matter is that the current energy sources contain so much concentrated energy that the green alternative sources, at their present level of development, can't compete in the market on a cost competitive basis.

And old IBM saying, it's not first to market that wins, it's the close second to the market that makes it cost competitive that wins.

LOL Fossil energy where the only cost is extracting it will always be the cheapest if you don't count the costs of the damage it does to our climate. What does that have to do with solar roofs? I like this old adage, "Penny wise Pound foolish" which describes denialists to a tee. They won't pay a penny more so their grandchildren can have a healthy Earth or take advantage of the many opportunities that green energy provides.. You do understand that fossil energy is a finite resource.

katzgar · Nov 8, 2016

eohrnberger said:
So what you are saying, Fenton, is that even at 3 times the price for electricity, solar still isn't economical, given the current market and business conditions as well as the current level of solar panel efficiency.

I had said for a long time now, already, that if you really, really want a green energy solution, make one that beats the current solution on price (without loading in a bunch of unrelated costs just to make it seem competitive - that'll never sell in the market).
A solution that the market perceives as costing less, without government coercion and market distortion, the market will beat a path to that solution provider's door and flip about as quickly as humanly able to do so.'

Until then, knock it off with the green technology government life support. All it does is waste money, and result in failed and idle green technology infrastructure once the government life support is withdrawn. Better to spend that money on existing infrastructure that needs repairs, rebuilding, and maintenance.

the problem is you are reflecting a point in time. time to update your knowledge base. Wind and Solar Are Crushing Fossil Fuels - Bloomberg

eohrnberger · Nov 8, 2016

katzgar said:
the problem is you are reflecting a point in time. time to update your knowledge base. Wind and Solar Are Crushing Fossil Fuels - Bloomberg

So why has Germany abandoned their green energy initiative? Their market electricity is 3 times what it is in the US market, and still, the green energy initiative makes so much sense they are abandoning it.

Something's not adding up.

iguanaman said:
LOL Fossil energy where the only cost is extracting it will always be the cheapest if you don't count the costs of the damage it does to our climate. What does that have to do with solar roofs? I like this old adage, "Penny wise Pound foolish" which describes denialists to a tee. They won't pay a penny more so their grandchildren can have a healthy Earth or take advantage of the many opportunities that green energy provides.. You do understand that fossil energy is a finite resource.

Yeah, you can put any fictitious number on that cost you want. "How much to replace the Earth if we ruin it by burning fossil fuels a single day more?"

Funny, this sudden care about grandchildren as the same time fully supporting the continued heaping of record debt levels on them. I call to question whether you have genuine concern, or if it's just happens to be ideologically convenient in this thread.

Come up with a renewable and / or green energy source that beats and displaces existing energy sources in the market, without government market distortions, and you'll have a winner. Anything short of that, and it'll be a loser, requiring government life support / enforcement by the barrel of the government gun.

Yes, a finite resource where claims of 'peak oil' have been made for decades, never to have come true.

You really, really want to stop all this terrible impact on the Earth? Easy. Pass law where each KWH has $100,000,000 tax on it. You'll get your clean green future within a week, and you'll like it when the government is 'properly' funded.

katzgar · Nov 8, 2016

eohrnberger said:
So why has Germany abandoned their green energy initiative? Their market electricity is 3 times what it is in the US market, and still, the green energy initiative makes so much sense they are abandoning it.

Something's not adding up.

Yeah, you can put any fictitious number on that cost you want. "How much to replace the Earth if we ruin it by burning fossil fuels a single day more?"

Funny, this sudden care about grandchildren as the same time fully supporting the continued heaping of record debt levels on them. I call to question whether you have genuine concern, or if it's just happens to be ideologically convenient in this thread.

Come up with a renewable and / or green energy source that beats and displaces existing energy sources in the market, without government market distortions, and you'll have a winner. Anything short of that, and it'll be a loser, requiring government life support / enforcement by the barrel of the government gun.

Yes, a finite resource where claims of 'peak oil' have been made for decades, never to have come true.

You really, really want to stop all this terrible impact on the Earth? Easy. Pass law where each KWH has $100,000,000 tax on it. You'll get your clean green future within a week, and you'll like it when the government is 'properly' funded.

Germany ecouragement of green energy has been expensive but costs for renewables have have continued to go down. renewables are still not there yet but are very close. I gave you a chance to update your info but you apparently skipped it.

countryboy · Nov 8, 2016

Brewdog said:
Why does this newer generation make fun of me for wearing white socks and white tennis shoes? I'm not a fashionable sort of guy, but I still don't get what's wrong with it.

Because lefties are obsessed with bashing their political opponents for superficial nonsense. It's the same reason they maligned Cruz because he "looked creepy".

countryboy · Nov 8, 2016

Incisor said:
When we gave business a "repatriation holiday" in 2004, the result was negative. It ended up costing jobs. The jobs are not coming back unless Americans are willing to work for $18/day in a windowless factory with suicide nets.

You do realize we still do quite a bit of manufacturing in this country, right? And not one single factory worker in this country makes $18 a day. Do you really expect to be taken seriously by spewing hyperbolic nonsense? Cut the dramatic bull**** already. :roll:

reinoe · Nov 8, 2016

iguanaman said:
I have never seen such a lack of faith in America. We are perfectly capable of competing in the world market. In fact we can dominate it. But not through tariffs. Trade barriers are a 19th century anachronism because they failed in every case. We can lead the world in solar tech too. Take a look at these solar panels from Tesla. They are made of textured glass and last longer than traditional roofs and look better too.

https://techcrunch.com/2016/10/28/these-are-teslas-stunning-new-solar-roof-tiles-for-homes/

I think you're taking my post to mean something that it didn't. I believe in American ingenuity, I believe in American manufacturing. Those solar panels are ****ing beautiful and do not look out of place or awkward at all on that house. But there's this: how much do those solar panels cost? Is the quality so high that a person would buy them over a slightly not as good Chinese solar panel installation that's being sold at 1/10th of the cost because the warehouses want to offload the product? You can't just rely on feel-good rhetoric: there are market forces at play. Warehouses want to get rid of that Chinese stock and the American solar Panel industry is going to have to create something so vastly superior that it will override the incredibly low price of the Chinese panels. That's the reality of the situation.

eohrnberger · Nov 8, 2016

katzgar said:
Germany ecouragement of green energy has been expensive but costs for renewables have have continued to go down. renewables are still not there yet but are very close. I gave you a chance to update your info but you apparently skipped it.

Apparently still not enough to be cost competitive in the market. I have no doubt that someday, one day, it will be, and when it is, the market will beat a path and buy it, and the energy source picture will flip faster than by government mandate. Things just go faster and of their own volition when people believe, see and can count, how it's better for them. That's what's missing with government mandates. I think it's called human nature.

The jobs aren't coming back

Deuce

Outer space potato man

Hypothetical

iguanaman

Helix

justabubba

long standing member

truthatallcost

eohrnberger

eohrnberger

Fearandloathing

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Northern Light

The Light of Truth

imagep

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iguanaman

Incisor

eohrnberger

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katzgar

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katzgar

countryboy

countryboy

reinoe

eohrnberger