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Voter Fraud

DamnYankee said:
Okay. Back in the day, I remember going to the SSA office and presenting my birth certificate to get a SSN. Are you opposed to doing the same thing for a voter ID card? I'm curious.
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what about the citizens - older ones, usually - who never received a birth certificate
 
bluesmoke said:
You've not produced irrefutable evidence of what you've claimed. Show us your evidence.
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I don't do "evidence." It doesn't matter, you have your mind made up so no amount of evidence is ever enough, like no amount of voter fraud will be enough for you and people like you. In this day of the internet, evidence is where you find it. Don't take my word for it, it doesn't bother me. Look for yourself, you already have one example, how much more is needed?
 
I'm all for a national ID card used for anything that requires ID. Voting, banking, benefits, etc.
 
DamnYankee said:
I don't do "evidence." It doesn't matter, you have your mind made up so no amount of evidence is ever enough, like no amount of voter fraud will be enough for you and people like you. In this day of the internet, evidence is where you find it. Don't take my word for it, it doesn't bother me. Look for yourself, you already have one example, how much more is needed?
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My mind is made up to the extent that the existing evidence concludes. If I see a claim of something of such gravity as vote fraud that is a false claim, I'm going to demand the poster show factual support or consider that claim baseless and unsupported. And/or I will post facts that outright refute the claim. Usually, it should be who makes the claim to support what they say or they're just opinionated with nothing to back up what they say. If going forward voter fraud actually occurs in significant numbers and becomes a genuine problem, then that would be the time to analyze the problem and determine solution. Then my mind would be made up that voter fraud is a problem and the cause has to be determined and a solution found.
 
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DamnYankee said:
One small example that is repeated over and over again throughout the country. Would a national voter ID card be a fix?

Investigation launched after dead people are registered to vote in Harrisonburg - Richmond Times-Dispatch: Virginia News
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A voter id would stop some of them, but not enough.

There are actually quite a few instances of voter fraud being found, but next to nothing on convictions. One issue is if x person votes in 6 states at the same time, but that person could not possibly travel hundreds of miles in minutes, you can not charge that person, but how do you catch the other people. Most cases like that are stripped from the count after being reviewed.

The big issue with stuff like this is that states often do not share information, and federal boards only take small samplesto search for fraud, since scouring an entire voting record would require massive funds and personel, and would take months to accomplish.


The simplest fix would be a national voting database, that could track by ss number who voted, and limit it to one vote, rather than using voter id which would only be effective if counties cities states etc all shared voting rolls to cross examine for fraud, otherwise they could still vote multiple times and the left hand will not know what the right did.
 
blaxshep said:
Apparently requiring anyone to do anything to prove they have the right to vote (They are legal citizens) is racist.
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You wrote one sentence and were wrong in like four different ways. That takes some effort.
 
bluesmoke said:
My mind is made up to the extent that the existing evidence concludes. If I see a claim of something of such gravity as vote fraud that is a false claim, I'm going to demand the poster show factual support or consider that claim baseless and unsupported. And/or I will post facts that outright refute the claim. Usually, it should be who makes the claim to support what they say or they're just opinionated with nothing to back up what they say. If going forward voter fraud actually occurs in significant numbers and becomes a genuine problem, then that would be the time to analyze the problem and determine solution. Then my mind would be made up that voter fraud is a problem and the cause has to be determined and a solution found.
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You can demand in one hand, and crap in the other. See which one fills up faster. If you can't find what you are looking for in today's information age, then you simply doom yourself to ignorance.
 
DamnYankee said:
You can demand in one hand, and crap in the other. See which one fills up faster. If you can't find what you are looking for in today's information age, then you simply doom yourself to ignorance.
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Right. And I can't find any significant evidence of vote fraud. Going forward, perhaps more and frequent cases will occur that will amount to a level of significance. But as of now, I haven't seen anything that others have found nor can I find any myself. But one who is making a claim and can't back it up is giving opinion and not stating fact or a statement supported by fact.
 
bluesmoke said:
Right. And I can't find any significant evidence of vote fraud. Going forward, perhaps more and frequent cases will occur that will amount to a level of significance. But as of now, I haven't seen anything that others have found nor can I find any myself. But one who is making a claim and can't back it up is giving opinion and not stating fact or a statement supported by fact.
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You are asking for evidence in a scenario where evidence is not allowed to be collected. How convenient for you. If it is forbidden to ask for ID, how does one prove or provide evidence that the person voting is doing so illegally?

I have worked at a polling place since 1992. If a guy walks up to me and says his name is Mickey Mouse and lives at 222 Boogie Woogie Avenue, I check the list. If the name and address in on the list I have to give him a ballot. I am not permitted to check ID or the address. So you tell me... If the before mentioned "Mickey Mouse" is not a valid voter, how would I prove it?
 
natsb said:
You are asking for evidence in a scenario where evidence is not allowed to be collected. How convenient for you. If it is forbidden to ask for ID, how does one prove or provide evidence that the person voting is doing so illegally?

I have worked at a polling place since 1992. If a guy walks up to me and says his name is Mickey Mouse and lives at 222 Boogie Woogie Avenue, I check the list. If the name and address in on the list I have to give him a ballot. I am not permitted to check ID or the address. So you tell me... If the before mentioned "Mickey Mouse" is not a valid voter, how would I prove it?
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But that rarely happens. Because, if Donald Duck said he was Mickey and got away with it and later Mickey showed up, then they'd know vote fraud occurred. But by far and away, Mickey shows up and votes as Mickey while Donald doesn't show up at all.
 
DamnYankee said:
One small example that is repeated over and over again throughout the country. Would a national voter ID card be a fix?

Investigation launched after dead people are registered to vote in Harrisonburg - Richmond Times-Dispatch: Virginia News
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It would be a start but one political party benefits from fraud, have gotten laws to enable more fraud, and the federal government will sue all fifty states to protect voter fraud.

Social Security cards are not a national ID. For one thing, there's no photo. For another, you don't have to be a eligible voter to get a SS card.

If voter fraud isn't a problem eliminating the enabling legislation isn't a problem either.
 
bluesmoke said:
But that rarely happens. Because, if Donald Duck said he was Mickey and got away with it and later Mickey showed up, then they'd know vote fraud occurred. But by far and away, Mickey shows up and votes as Mickey while Donald doesn't show up at all.
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You seem to have missed my point. How do you know it rarely happens? We are not allowed to ask for ID. Our "Mickey Mouse" can register to vote with several addresses, and therefore have access to several polling places. There is no relationship to another voter, so we could care less who else does or does not show up.
 
DamnYankee said:
One small example that is repeated over and over again throughout the country. Would a national voter ID card be a fix?

Investigation launched after dead people are registered to vote in Harrisonburg - Richmond Times-Dispatch: Virginia News
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The penalty for casting a fraudulent vote is something like 10 years max in federal prison, on top of a fine. Do you really think someone willing to risk that sentence would NOT be willing to risk the penalty for creating or buying a fake national voter ID?

Besides, do you know how many votes are cast in national elections? Do you realize how many people would have to risk going to jail for a very long time to have the slightest chance of affecting a national election?





I really wish the right would think through their hissy fits before engaging in them. There are quite a lot of policies the Dems can rightly be attacked for. Instead the right squeals and flails about virtually non-existent problems.
 
Anyway, for the record, I wouldn't mind voter ID if it was done fairly, just to shut the right up and force them to invent some other thing to lose their **** over.



The trouble is that:

(1) voter ID plans in conservative states have repeatedly been struck down as unconstitutional (despite being passed by alleged constitution-lovers), including by conservative courts/judges;

(2) the right only seems to demand voter ID laws ASAP in the months leading up to an election, then they fall silent; that suggests ill motive;

(3) the right also engages in shenanigans as in Wisconsin, where after passage of a voter ID law, places where one might get an ID were simultaneously closed in D-heavy areas and the same sort of places in R-heavy places saw their hours extended.

Explain how that shows a genuine concern about "voter fraud".
 
This article is about a case of voter registration fraud, not voter fraud. Two very different things.
 
DamnYankee said:
One small example that is repeated over and over again throughout the country. Would a national voter ID card be a fix?

Investigation launched after dead people are registered to vote in Harrisonburg - Richmond Times-Dispatch: Virginia News
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Would you care to show me examples of voter registration fraud that actually led to voter fraud?

THAT, sir, is the 800-lb gorilla in the room - y'all see the voter registration fraud and somehow assume that it automatically leads to voter fraud...when in reality, there's very, very little voter fraud at all.
 
Mr Person said:

The penalty for casting a fraudulent vote is something like 10 years max in federal prison, on top of a fine. Do you really think someone willing to risk that sentence would NOT be willing to risk the penalty for creating or buying a fake national voter ID?

Besides, do you know how many votes are cast in national elections? Do you realize how many people would have to risk going to jail for a very long time to have the slightest chance of affecting a national election?





I really wish the right would think through their hissy fits before engaging in them. There are quite a lot of policies the Dems can rightly be attacked for. Instead the right squeals and flails about virtually non-existent problems.
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Of course they would risk it. There is about zero probability that that will get caught. When the poller is forbidden from asking for ID, the person doing the voting stands very little risk of getting caught. It is all about the voter registration fraud. A person can register in ten different districts and vote ten different times. And they can do the voting part easily because they will never be asked for ID.

Then at the end of the day, the usual suspects will proclaim that no cheating happened because there is no proof. We are supposed to skip over the part that there is no proof because collecting proof is forbidden.
 
natsb said:
A person can register in ten different districts and vote ten different times. And they can do the voting part easily because they will never be asked for ID.
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It's pretty easy to track this. DOB's alone are pretty good at flagging duplicate registrations, but due to HAVA, most states require DL#'s, which are even better.
 
foadi said:
It's pretty easy to track this. DOB's alone are pretty good at flagging duplicate registrations, but due to HAVA, most states require DL#'s, which are even better.
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Not really. I person who is going to lie about their name and address is not going to feel shame about lying about their birthday.

Yes, most States ask for a DL, but then they offer a list of alternatives if the registrant does not have a DL. In Maryland, for instance, is you don't have a DL, you can simply provide the last four of your SS number, or present a utility bill. If all else fails, you simply fill out an affidavit in which you promise that you are who you say you are. The opportunities for fraud are plentiful.
 
natsb said:
Not really. I person who is going to lie about their name and address is not going to feel shame about lying about their birthday.

Yes, most States ask for a DL, but then they offer a list of alternatives if the registrant does not have a DL. In Maryland, for instance, is you don't have a DL, you can simply provide the last four of your SS number, or present a utility bill. If all else fails, you simply fill out an affidavit in which you promise that you are who you say you are. The opportunities for fraud are plentiful.
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In my experience, registrations with bad DOB's and SSN's are discarded. Only around 70% of new registrations go through.
 
natsb said:
Of course they would risk it. There is about zero probability that that will get caught. When the poller is forbidden from asking for ID, the person doing the voting stands very little risk of getting caught. It is all about the voter registration fraud. A person can register in ten different districts and vote ten different times. And they can do the voting part easily because they will never be asked for ID.

Then at the end of the day, the usual suspects will proclaim that no cheating happened because there is no proof. We are supposed to skip over the part that there is no proof because collecting proof is forbidden.
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What is there to gain?
 
Deuce said:
What is there to gain?
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The gain is getting one candidate elected over another.

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foadi said:
In my experience, registrations with bad DOB's and SSN's are discarded. Only around 70% of new registrations go through.
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I gave it a good try, but I can't find that 70% reference anywhere. A little help would be appreciated.

Yes, dead people use perfectly good DOB and SSN to register. And still, we are not allowed to ask for their ID.

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