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Appeals court rules Ohio voter purge illegal

Sparky2 said:
The truth is everything to me, Lester.
That's why I don't cloud my mind and my heart with either of the two Party's stale narratives.
(One of which you parrot beautifully, by the way. "The numbers on voter fraud are very small," etc)
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It's not a narrative, it's one of those things we call FACTS. If you disagree, show me the evidence. It's pretty simple - I like to recognize reality and base decisions on that state of affairs.

Will the GOP enter every election hoping to get an advantage, in any given district?
Of course they will.
As does your Democrat Party.
It's just that, in my observation, your Democrat Party spends an inordinate amount of time promoting ideas and legislation that will only help their die-hard support to more easily commit voter fraud.
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Well, you calling it the "Democrat" [sic] party is a good tell. That's what the party is called by right wing blowhards. And if you can point to any ideas and legislation that make it easier to commit voter fraud, what are those policies? I don't want "voter fraud" but I also oppose efforts that won't affect actual "voter fraud" at all but will make it much, much harder for poor people to vote by making them jump through hoops not even the republicans pushing this garbage allege in court will reduce fraud. They make the claims out of court when you can make stuff up, but not in court where evidence is required.

But please remember that I am not affiliated with either of your Parties. And I don't respect many of the Party politicians or their handlers, crooks, lobbyists, and influence peddlers.
I wish all of them, from both Parties, would climb to the top of the nearest tall building and throw themselves off.
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OK, but you're parroting republican talking points...
 
Sparky2 said:
NO, Jasper, it's not a ridiculous straw man.
It's the Party narrative.
'Voter ID laws unfairly restrict the ability of minorities to vote'.
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You moved the goal posts. Above you said, "the far left believes that you are too stupid to obtain a valid photo ID." That's quite different than recognizing that in Texas, for example, there were many counties in Texas without any place to get an approved photo ID and if you didn't have an acceptable ID you didn't have a DL and didn't drive and it posed a significant burden to travel a county over to get an ID just to vote.

What else is there to infer?
Minorities need photo ID's to get a loan, start a cable tv account, buy a car, obtain a bus ticket, buy cigarettes, buy alcohol, etc etc.
But somehow they lose their photo ID's come election time, and they are just too poor, too downtrodden, and too stupid to obtain a photo ID again?
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This is false, made up BS. Millions of mostly urban poor simply do not need an ID acceptable to vote, and we know that because they live their lives without them. In Texas it was 600,000 people living their lives that they KNEW didn't have a photo ID. So they don't lose them, they don't need them. They HAVE ID, but the GOP looks at the lists of what they do have and excludes them off the list, and that isn't any accident.

It's grotesquely insulting to minorities!
Surely you agree with that, sir!
:doh
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Well, when you make stuff up and lie about what ID they have and ID they need to live their lives, I guess this false narrative you're spinning could be insulting. But it's based on a fundamental and deliberate ignorance of how the poor actually live their lives and a misrepresentation of the facts.
 
JasperL said:
It's not a narrative, it's one of those things we call FACTS. If you disagree, show me the evidence. It's pretty simple - I like to recognize reality and base decisions on that state of affairs.
Well, you calling it the "Democrat" [sic] party is a good tell. That's what the party is called by right wing blowhards. And if you can point to any ideas and legislation that make it easier to commit voter fraud, what are those policies? I don't want "voter fraud" but I also oppose efforts that won't affect actual "voter fraud" at all but will make it much, much harder for poor people to vote by making them jump through hoops not even the republicans pushing this garbage allege in court will reduce fraud. They make the claims out of court when you can make stuff up, but not in court where evidence is required.
OK, but you're parroting republican talking points...
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You are wrong, sir.
Producing a valid photo ID at the polling place isn't rocket science.
Producing a valid photo ID at the polling place isn't racist.
Producing a valid photo ID at the polling place isn't all that hard, considering exactly what all of us need that same photo ID for.

Producing a valid photo ID at the polling place is just common sense.
And it's a very good starting place for avoiding voter fraud.

There is no left or right to that.
There is no Democrat or Republican to that.

A level playing field.
How can you possibly argue against that?
:2wave:
 
Sparky2 said:
You are wrong, sir.
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What am I wrong about. Show me the evidence if you're going to assert I have misstated some fact. Pretty simple request.

Producing a valid photo ID at the polling place isn't rocket science.
Producing a valid photo ID at the polling place isn't racist.
Producing a valid photo ID at the polling place isn't all that hard, considering exactly what all of us need that same photo ID for.
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First of all, what problem are you trying to solve? It's not impersonation fraud at the polls, because there is simply no evidence anywhere that it rises above the trivial. What additional assurance that the person is who he claims at the polls is provided by using a narrow list of photo IDs versus broader lists that include things like VA cards, SS cards, voter registration card, a W-2? Can you cite ANYTHING to back up your belief we need government issued photo IDs because other forms of ID are not reliable enough for voting?

I know the answer is no which is why it's always frustrating to debate this topic. One side goes where the evidence takes them, the other doesn't, and you're on the side that cannot cite evidence. Sorry but that's just the way it goes.

Producing a valid photo ID at the polling place is just common sense.
And it's a very good starting place for avoiding voter fraud.
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It's a terrible starting place. The place where every expert recognizes that the VAST majority of actual "voter" fraud happens is with absentee ballots. So if you are worried about "voter fraud" the place to start is where the fraud actually might rise above the trivial.

There is no left or right to that.
There is no Democrat or Republican to that.
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No, there is just evidence, and you're assuming with NO evidence that somehow a GOP style photo ID is magical and will prevent fraud better than lots of other forms of ID that have proved over the years extremely effective at keeping impersonation voter fraud at the polls to trivial levels.

A level playing field.
How can you possibly argue against that?
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I'm not.
 
JasperL said:
What am I wrong about. Show me the evidence if you're going to assert I have misstated some fact. Pretty simple request.
First of all, what problem are you trying to solve? It's not impersonation fraud at the polls, because there is simply no evidence anywhere that it rises above the trivial. What additional assurance that the person is who he claims at the polls is provided by using a narrow list of photo IDs versus broader lists that include things like VA cards, SS cards, voter registration card, a W-2? Can you cite ANYTHING to back up your belief we need government issued photo IDs because other forms of ID are not reliable enough for voting?
I know the answer is no which is why it's always frustrating to debate this topic. One side goes where the evidence takes them, the other doesn't, and you're on the side that cannot cite evidence. Sorry but that's just the way it goes.
It's a terrible starting place. The place where every expert recognizes that the VAST majority of actual "voter" fraud happens is with absentee ballots. So if you are worried about "voter fraud" the place to start is where the fraud actually might rise above the trivial.
No, there is just evidence, and you're assuming with NO evidence that somehow a GOP style photo ID is magical and will prevent fraud better than lots of other forms of ID that have proved over the years extremely effective at keeping impersonation voter fraud at the polls to trivial levels.
I'm not.
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You keep mentioning a 'GOP style photo ID'.

I am not affiliated with the GOP.
I don't care for the GOP.
I wish every single politician who is a member of the GOP would join hands with every single member of your Democrat Party and throw themselves off the nearest tall building.
(Is this getting tiresome for you, yet?)

A valid photo ID at the polling place, prior to voting;
What specifically is your objection to that one single, common-sense stop-gap against voter fraud??

Why do you personally object to people showing a valid photo ID prior to casting a vote?


Answer that, please.
It's really not that hard.
And there isn't a 'left' or a 'right' answer.
Only the common sense answer.
:2wave:
 
Sparky2 said:
You keep mentioning a 'GOP style photo ID'.

I am not affiliated with the GOP.
I don't care for the GOP.
I wish every single politician who is a member of the GOP would join hands with every single member of your Democrat Party and throw themselves off the nearest tall building.
(Is this getting tiresome for you, yet?)

A valid photo ID at the polling place, prior to voting;
What specifically is your objection to that one single, common-sense stop-gap against voter fraud??

Why do you personally object to people showing a valid photo ID prior to casting a vote?


Answer that, please.
It's really not that hard.
And there isn't a 'left' or a 'right' answer.
Only the common sense answer.
:2wave:
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I've been over it in this thread, the courts cover the problems with the requirements in state after state. I'd explain it again, but if you can't read what I've already written in this thread, or bother to read some of the court cases addressing the problem, you have no interest in the answer and aren't going to change your mind.

But, briefly, I have no problem with showing AN ID at the polls. The problems are 1) you cannot produce a shred of evidence that a long list of acceptable IDs doesn't work perfectly well in demonstrating the person showing up to vote is the eligible voter, 2) the VERY narrow list of photo IDs in several states poses significant burdens on the poor and old and city dwellers, and 3) will predictably result in many eligible voters unable to cast a ballot.

And the bottom line is impersonation fraud at the polls simply is not a problem. So sweeping changes in voting rules that require hundreds of thousands in each affected state to get a new ID just to vote are clearly solutions in desperate search of a problem that doesn't exist, and we all know the point of them is to reduce democratic leaning turnout on election day. The NC was dumb enough to make it crystal clear enough that no one could miss it. They requested voting patterns by race, and with "surgical precision" proceeded to attack methods used mostly by blacks who vote predictably democratic.
 
JasperL said:
I've been over it in this thread, the courts cover the problems with the requirements in state after state. I'd explain it again, but if you can't read what I've already written in this thread, or bother to read some of the court cases addressing the problem, you have no interest in the answer and aren't going to change your mind.

But, briefly, I have no problem with showing AN ID at the polls. The problems are 1) you cannot produce a shred of evidence that a long list of acceptable IDs doesn't work perfectly well in demonstrating the person showing up to vote is the eligible voter, 2) the VERY narrow list of photo IDs in several states poses significant burdens on the poor and old and city dwellers, and 3) will predictably result in many eligible voters unable to cast a ballot.

And the bottom line is impersonation fraud at the polls simply is not a problem. So sweeping changes in voting rules that require hundreds of thousands in each affected state to get a new ID just to vote are clearly solutions in desperate search of a problem that doesn't exist, and we all know the point of them is to reduce democratic leaning turnout on election day. The NC was dumb enough to make it crystal clear enough that no one could miss it. They requested voting patterns by race, and with "surgical precision" proceeded to attack methods used mostly by blacks who vote predictably democratic.
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Patently wrong at so many levels.
(Specifically, see your statements in bold)

And spot-on the Party talking points in opposing common sense Voter ID requirements, by the way.
You are to be commended for so wonderfully parroting exactly that which every single politician from the Democrat Party has been insisting for years.
(To wit, "The poor, poor, ignorant urban blacks, unable to get a photo ID, oh woe is me.....")
So insulting to the very people they claim to want to help!

In the end, I stand by my original statements.
The far left is far more likely to encourage that which will allow voter fraud than the far right.
And if insulting thousands and thousands of minority voters will help them in that goal, then so be it.

Shabby, it truly is.
 
Sparky2 said:
Patently wrong at so many levels.
(Specifically, see your statements in bold)
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I notice you can't or won't say how I'm wrong and more importantly produce any evidence to back up your opinion.

And spot-on the Party talking points in opposing common sense Voter ID requirements, by the way.
You are to be commended for so wonderfully parroting exactly that which every single politician from the Democrat Party has been insisting for years.
(To wit, "The poor, poor, ignorant urban blacks, unable to get a photo ID, oh woe is me.....")
So insulting to the very people they claim to want to help!
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See above. If I thought you'd read them, I could cite the findings of fact in various court cases to back up what you call "Party talking points." They are otherwise known as facts and the evidence as we know it at this point. The "surgical precision" part was a direct quote from the Appeals court decision in NC, for example, along with the basic description of what the GOP did in an emergency session to pass the bill struck down by the same court.

In the end, I stand by my original statements.
The far left is far more likely to encourage that which will allow voter fraud than the far right.
And if insulting thousands and thousands of minority voters will help them in that goal, then so be it.
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No one is insulting anyone. At least if minority voters are insulted, I'll wait to hear it from them and not someone who isn't affected by the new rules.

Shabby, it truly is.
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Your fact and evidence free 'analysis' is shabby - I agree! :roll:
 
JasperL said:
I notice you can't or won't say how I'm wrong and more importantly produce any evidence to back up your opinion.
See above. If I thought you'd read them, I could cite the findings of fact in various court cases to back up what you call "Party talking points." They are otherwise known as facts and the evidence as we know it at this point. The "surgical precision" part was a direct quote from the Appeals court decision in NC, for example, along with the basic description of what the GOP did in an emergency session to pass the bill struck down by the same court.
No one is insulting anyone. At least if minority voters are insulted, I'll wait to hear it from them and not someone who isn't affected by the new rules.
Your fact and evidence free 'analysis' is shabby - I agree! :roll:
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You continue to hammer the Party talking points.
Chiefly, demanding of me data on how many (hundreds, thousands, millions?) of voter fraud cases have been related to voters voting without a photo ID.....

In doing so, you're missing the point.
The sublime, simple point of the photo ID issue:
To fight against voter ID so passionately the way the far left does, it simply makes no sense, unless a desire to promote voter fraud is the ultimate goal.

It doesn't MATTER how many cases of voter fraud have been committed by people voting without an ID, or people voting using dead people's identities.
Even one case is too many.
And that's why investigators in Colorado, Iowa, and Ohio are hard at work on it.
Or maybe they aren't, because they have no interest in discovering how bad it just might be.

It's really simple.
There's no DOWN SIDE to responsible voters providing a photo ID, thereby ensuring one person, one vote.

And (at the risk of repeating myself) to crow that tired old chestnut, "But, but, poor blacks are disenfranchised by voter ID laws, because it places an unfair burden on them!!" is just intellectually dishonest.
And UNBELIEVABLY insulting to the poor blacks.
Because the only (and obvious) implication is that they are too stupid to know how to go get a photo ID.

How and why the poor blacks continue to go to the polls and vote for the very people who insult them so, I'll never know.

Oh, wait, that's right;
They can't vote, because they are sitting at home without a photo ID.

And they can't buy beer because they don't have a photo ID.
And they can't rent movies because they don't have a photo ID.
And they can't board an airplane because they don't have a photo ID.
And they can't sign up for cable tv because they don't have a photo ID.
And they can't rent a car, buy cigarettes, visit an R rated movie, or purchase a bus ticket, because they don't have a photo ID.

Poor indeed they must be, to just sit at home all day with nothing to do, nothing to drink, and nowhere they can go!
:shock:
 
Sparky2 said:
You continue to hammer the Party talking points.
Chiefly, demanding of me data on how many (hundreds, thousands, millions?) of voter fraud cases have been related to voters voting without a photo ID.....
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It's certainly closer to 10s than 1000s.

In doing so, you're missing the point.
The sublime, simple point of the photo ID issue:
To fight against voter ID so passionately the way the far left does, it simply makes no sense, unless a desire to promote voter fraud is the ultimate goal.
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It's not a fight against "voter ID" but photo ID laws poorly implemented. As I said earlier, just read a couple of the cases and then you can argue about the actual issues with those laws instead of creating straw men based on what I assume is simple ignorance of the issues.

Lots of states have implemented voter ID laws with no lawsuits and no problems. What they did other states did not is to 1) establish lists of acceptable ID that are reasonable for the purpose, and 2) make the process of getting ID for those who still need them easy and affordable.

It doesn't MATTER how many cases of voter fraud have been committed by people voting without an ID, or people voting using dead people's identities.
Even one case is too many.
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That's a silly statement. No, you don't make sweeping changes to voting laws at best/worst inconveniencing 100s of thousands of registered voters, costing $millions in time and the money to obtain source documents, $millions more to make the IDs available which means opening offices to issue voting acceptable IDs, etc. to solve a problem that doesn't rise above the trivial.

Why not say, "Even one gun death is too many, so let's make sweeping changes in gun regulations to prevent, maybe, just a single death, forcing millions of gun owners to (say) register their weapons, go through a training program, buy a safe, whatever, to prevent that one death." Anyone not stupid would weigh the cost and burden of new regulations against the expected benefits.

And that's why investigators in Colorado, Iowa, and Ohio are hard at work on it.
Or maybe they aren't, because they have no interest in discovering how bad it just might be.
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Good luck to them, if there is fraud I hope they catch those cheating the system and prosecute them. No sarcasm.

It's really simple.
There's no DOWN SIDE to responsible voters providing a photo ID, thereby ensuring one person, one vote.
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Well, sure there is, just read any of the recent cases to see what those downsides are. I've been through them, you ignore them, won't read the cases to figure out the real issues, and just repeat your statements based on a fundamental ignorance of the downsides.

And (at the risk of repeating myself) to crow that tired old chestnut, "But, but, poor blacks are disenfranchised by voter ID laws, because it places an unfair burden on them!!" is just intellectually dishonest.
And UNBELIEVABLY insulting to the poor blacks.
Because the only (and obvious) implication is that they are too stupid to know how to go get a photo ID.
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I'll repeat myself as well and it's to say you're just completely ignorant of the actual arguments made against the laws and why the courts in fact found, and appeals courts upheld, the notion that the laws in fact DO create unacceptable burdens as drafted. The only real problem in the states with a problem are the morons in the legislatures in these states who didn't listen to critics and take the simplest of steps to mitigate those burdens. In Texas, for example, one simple step would have been to make sure at least ONE office to issue the alternate IDs was in each f'ing county, and to keep those that did exist open during convenient hours.

How and why the poor blacks continue to go to the polls and vote for the very people who insult them so, I'll never know.
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You should have that discussion with blacks, I guess. I can't speak for them.

And they can't buy beer because they don't have a photo ID.
And they can't rent movies because they don't have a photo ID.
And they can't board an airplane because they don't have a photo ID.
And they can't sign up for cable tv because they don't have a photo ID.
And they can't rent a car, buy cigarettes, visit an R rated movie, or purchase a bus ticket, because they don't have a photo ID.
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It's just a fact that, for example, 200k REGISTERED VOTERS in NC and 600k in Texas didn't have an ID acceptable to vote and got through their lives just fine. So all I can tell you is either they don't do those things or in fact don't need a photo ID acceptable at the polls to do those things. Not sure why this is hard for you to accept - it's just a fact that actually no one disputes. Weird.... :roll:
 
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JasperL said:
Not sure why this is hard for you to accept - it's just a fact that actually no one disputes. Weird.... :roll:
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We must just agree to disagree then, and leave it at that.

I will always champion Photo ID laws as regards elections and polling places, and you (may I assume this much?) will always combat them.

In the end, I am perfectly happy to produce my photo ID when I vote, purchase beer, board an airliner, and/or buy a car or motorcycle.
I don't feel like it's an unnecessary or 'unacceptable burden' at all.

But then again, I live my life without regrets, without excuses, and without my hand out, looking for a government reach-around.
And no politician need ever attempt to pander to me, in any way, shape or form.

They will get my vote if they impress me with their honesty, integrity, and accountability.
Period.
 
Sparky2 said:
We must just agree to disagree then, and leave it at that.

I will always champion Photo ID laws as regards elections and polling places, and you (may I assume this much?) will always combat them.
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No, whether I "combat" them or not depends on the law. As I said, lots of states have implemented voter ID laws with no issues. The only requirement for a decent law is for the lawmakers to not be total morons and listen to critics and proactively anticipate problems with complying with the law and mitigating them. On other threads, I've called court striking down the laws "stupid taxes" on dumbass legislators who failed at their jobs.

We are talking about fundamental rights of citizens here. We should demand at least basic competence when laws f'k with those rights.

In the end, I am perfectly happy to produce my photo ID when I vote, purchase beer, board an airliner, and/or buy a car or motorcycle.
I don't feel like it's an unnecessary or 'unacceptable burden' at all.
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So if it's an acceptable burden for you and your life, it cannot be unacceptable for others with totally different lives than you? Does the word "empathy" ring a bell?

But then again, I live my life without regrets, without excuses, and without my hand out, looking for a government reach-around.
And no politician need ever attempt to pander to me, in any way, shape or form.

They will get my vote if they impress me with their honesty, integrity, and accountability.
Period.
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Sounds fine to me. Do you want a pat on the back? :roll:
 
JasperL said:
So if it's an acceptable burden for you and your life, it cannot be unacceptable for others with totally different lives than you? Does the word "empathy" ring a bell?
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I donate my time and money to feeding and clothing the homeless in my community.
And I don't just leave checks with nameless organizations, and clothes and shoes in drop-boxes.
I personally deliver food, clothing, and shoes to the homeless in Huntsville.

All it takes is the willingness to drive directly to, and around, the the Seminole Drive area, and to drive for blocks around that area.
The homeless are always grateful for the personal touch, and they are always willing to listen to advice on getting off drugs, and getting away from the street life by re-engaging with family and certain charitable organizations.

In that vein, I also regularly help to re-stock The First Stop, an outstanding local 'day shelter' that endeavors to help the homeless to get off drugs and alcohol, find jobs, and get their families and lives back in order.

I have delivered entire carloads of groceries to poor and struggling families, and I have delivered entire Thanksgiving meals to lesser-fortunate couples who could not afford a decent meal on any day, let alone a holiday.

I have helped to build handicap ramps at homes of the less fortunate who could not afford such a thing for poor old grandma, or the little kid in the scooter or wheelchair.

I don't just have 'empathy' for the poor, the minorities, and the disadvantaged in my community, I go down to them and engage with them personally.

Here's one thing I have learned from all this, and you do not learn such things by reading partisan blogs and by pissing and moaning on internet web-forums;
These people can do any thing they set their mind to, including getting a photo ID.

And I have never met one poor person or lesser-fortunate minority person who complained that they could not get a photo ID.
I have heard them say that they would like another sandwich or hamburger.
I have heard them say 'thank you for the clothes and shoes'.

But the topic of a photo ID;
It just never seems to come up.

I honestly think that is just a manufactured bit of propaganda offered-up by insincere politicians.
 
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