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Bad week for Hillary

China has vastly lower standards. Places like the EU or Canada have higher standards. How is Trump going to shift virtually all American trade based on sociological standards? How is he going to change environmental policy and labour laws in other countries? Would the prevailing corporate culture even allow him? Or is it more likely that this is yet more bs, fodder for the unwashed masses, those that can only guess at such things, and enjoy a quick, knee jerk solution presented to them?

Trade restrictions and tariffs that would being it to a more equitable level. Those would be used as a forcing mechanism for countries to improve in all of those fields and as they improve the restrictions ease.

It does need to fix some things. A great wall at the Mexican border, a trade war with China, a vastly increased military, tax giveaways to the most affluent, withdrawal from defense treaties with long standing allies, and racist immigration policies should not be on that list.

Trade is war. That's simply how it is, and we are losing that war. I don't see taxes the way you do. I'm a flat % tax person. Everyone pays the same %, no matter how much you made, and there are no deductions or refunds. Withdrawing from treaties is a good idea as they make any issue worse. WWI gave us WWII. WWI became such because of treaties. If not for them then it would have be a small conflict between two 2nd rate countries.

Nuclear weapons probably have kept the peace, but the devolvement of these to ever more jurisdictions is not a recipe for stability. It is Russian roulette indeed. A Trump presidency would come under the same heading.

It's nuclear weapons are going to proliferate, no matter what people do. It will get easier and easier to create as technology advances. Not sure how to change that.

The British science writer Brian Greene offered an opinion on the business of advanced civilizations. He speculated that many do in fact survive and advance. At a certain point, biological and technological evolution would merge, he believes, and then there would be sentient beings that were in effect super computers, with an indefinite lifespan. Some of these may wander the universe, drawing power from stars here and there, and observing other worlds. The question is though, what would a being that may be maintaining 50,000 or 100,000 conscious images at once- observations, experiments, calculations, projections, fantasy and entertainment- have to say to a human? It would be like a human trying to establish a dialogue with an oak tree. Exchange of ambassadors would be unlikely.

That's an interesting theory. Cyborg/sentient god robots floating around.
 
Don't hold your breath waiting for a reply.

It's a lot easier for the far-right to spread BS than it is for them to produce documentation that doesn't exist.

sis-boom-bah
 
Trade restrictions and tariffs that would being it to a more equitable level. Those would be used as a forcing mechanism for countries to improve in all of those fields and as they improve the restrictions ease.

The image of Donald Trump standing up for the downtrodden worker, and singing a raspy version of the "internationale", eludes me completely. What I do recall is Trump insisting tough play with China will bring manufacturing jobs back to America. The only manufacturing jobs that are going to return to the US, or any advanced economy, are going to be for robots. Even China is beginning the shift to automation in some sectors. Unless American workers want to compete with Bangladeshi wages, there will be no jobs for them, tough play or not.

The problem with tariffs is that they are easily retaliated against, and this can go into a downward spiral in which all lose. China is beginning to develop a middle class, and hence a domestic market for its products, indeed a very big one, meaning, exports will not be so critical for them in the future. The US could find itself in deep economic s***t by initiating a trade war with China.


Trade is war. That's simply how it is, and we are losing that war. I don't see taxes the way you do. I'm a flat % tax person. Everyone pays the same %, no matter how much you made, and there are no deductions or refunds. Withdrawing from treaties is a good idea as they make any issue worse. WWI gave us WWII. WWI became such because of treaties. If not for them then it would have be a small conflict between two 2nd rate countries.

How is the US losing? Trade is expanding, GDP is growing, Americans get super cheap products from the developing world. Trade is not an issue so much as the rise of the corporate culture, in which business entities can move anywhere in the world to increase their bottom line, whereas workers cannot. And so companies move to Bangladesh to get cheap labour, and move their headquarters to Ireland to avoid taxes. Guess who loses out there.

All taxes are, at their core, a political judgement on how society should be ordered. A flat tax is just one of many such subjective conclusions, one that sees some value in high rates of inequality. I find it odd that many who so strongly demand freedom are also the ones that willingly give up one of the public's main tools to free them from the control of the elite, a progressive and pro-social tax system.

WW1 was partly about treaties, but also came about because of the prevailing sentiments of the time. Nationalist hubris was very powerful then, and war was seen in a different light. Glory was imagined in war, the triumph of good over evil, and it was even imagined good for youth, a kind of hard edged education on the world. WW2 was a horse of a different colour. It was a time of world wide fascism, which arose for various reasons, and had little or nothing to do with alliances.

The US was entangled in neither due to alliances.It entered WW1 for commercial reasons. America wanted to trade with the western allies, Germany wanted to stop them, and so torpedoed ships, a pretty clear throwing down of the metaphorical gauntlet. Even if this hadn't happened, the US likely would have jumped in anyway, because its investments in Britain and France were such at that point that a German win (and presumably then loss of this money) would have been too big a hit to take. It was money, not alliances.

The US resisted any sort of alliance in WW2 for a long time, but eventually the writing was on the wall. Survival meant getting involved. A violent, extremist fascist regime encompassing all of Europe and Asia would have left the US in a very vulnerable position. It had to act, and so it did.

The last war made abundantly clear that the greater safety lay in engagement with the world, not retreat, and in a firm set of alliances, not in nationalistic hubris and slogans.

It's nuclear weapons are going to proliferate, no matter what people do. It will get easier and easier to create as technology advances. Not sure how to change that.

One way to do that is an interlocking set of alliances that mean nations are not on their own, and so do not have to necessarily match everyone else's capability. Japan and S Korea are not rushing to get nuclear weapons because of their alliance with the US. Germany is embedded in NATO, with US, British, and French nuclear deterrents, and so on. Trumps's grandstanding and demagoguery would pull these long standing institutions apart, virtually guaranteeing greater proliferation.

That's an interesting theory. Cyborg/sentient god robots floating around.

I wish I could remember the name of the book. It's a good read if you can it.
 
The image of Donald Trump standing up for the downtrodden worker, and singing a raspy version of the "internationale", eludes me completely. What I do recall is Trump insisting tough play with China will bring manufacturing jobs back to America. The only manufacturing jobs that are going to return to the US, or any advanced economy, are going to be for robots. Even China is beginning the shift to automation in some sectors. Unless American workers want to compete with Bangladeshi wages, there will be no jobs for them, tough play or not.

Yup...he's been talking about problems with trade for a long time. Decades. It's one of the few things he's been consistent on. That aside, it doesn't matter if it's automated. Even automated plants create lots of jobs. People have to build it. People have to maintain it. Roads and power grids have to be built to support it. People have to deliver supplies to it and also take the goods away. Places have to be built to service the wants and needs of all those people.

How is the US losing? Trade is expanding, GDP is growing, Americans get super cheap products from the developing world. Trade is not an issue so much as the rise of the corporate culture, in which business entities can move anywhere in the world to increase their bottom line, whereas workers cannot. And so companies move to Bangladesh to get cheap labour, and move their headquarters to Ireland to avoid taxes. Guess who loses out there.

Exactly, they move to places where they have standards that can't be competed with. And we are losing in trade deficit. Thank goodness we still have our defense companies. Making stuff to kill people is one of the few things we still make and sell around the world.

All taxes are, at their core, a political judgement on how society should be ordered. A flat tax is just one of many such subjective conclusions, one that sees some value in high rates of inequality. I find it odd that many who so strongly demand freedom are also the ones that willingly give up one of the public's main tools to free them from the control of the elite, a progressive and pro-social tax system.

Everyone should have skin in the game and complicated codes only benefit those who can hire experts to exploit it. Also, the rich don't have enough money to pay for everything themselves. I would also like to see regressive consumption taxes (e.g. gas tax) go away.
 
WW1 was partly about treaties, but also came about because of the prevailing sentiments of the time. Nationalist hubris was very powerful then, and war was seen in a different light. Glory was imagined in war, the triumph of good over evil, and it was even imagined good for youth, a kind of hard edged education on the world. WW2 was a horse of a different colour. It was a time of world wide fascism, which arose for various reasons, and had little or nothing to do with alliances.

Nationalism was a WWII thing, not really a WWI thing outside of some Serbs. Germany had to react to Russia mobilizing believing that they couldn't fight a two front war so they had planned to hit France first and take them out quickly. Since France had so many forts they planned to go through Belgium. They didn't even want to attack Belgium and they asked to be let to pass through, but were fought. Then, since England had their treaty with Belgium they had to jump in. The treaties and alliances made WWI happen, which then resulted in WWII and also the Lenin takeover of Russia, facilitated by Germany.

The US resisted any sort of alliance in WW2 for a long time, but eventually the writing was on the wall. Survival meant getting involved. A violent, extremist fascist regime encompassing all of Europe and Asia would have left the US in a very vulnerable position. It had to act, and so it did.

We weren't openly in an alliance but we financially and materially supported England and Russia and had an embargo on Japan. I'm not sure how much of our survival it would have been. Germany had already been turned by Russia before we even had D-day, and were in full retreat. It would have lasted longer but Germany still would have lost. Of course, then all of Europe might have turned red and that would have been as bad as a Nazi Europe.

The last war made abundantly clear that the greater safety lay in engagement with the world, not retreat, and in a firm set of alliances, not in nationalistic hubris and slogans.

It showed the opposite. By sitting out and entering later we ended up on top of the world.

One way to do that is an interlocking set of alliances that mean nations are not on their own, and so do not have to necessarily match everyone else's capability. Japan and S Korea are not rushing to get nuclear weapons because of their alliance with the US. Germany is embedded in NATO, with US, British, and French nuclear deterrents, and so on. Trumps's grandstanding and demagoguery would pull these long standing institutions apart, virtually guaranteeing greater proliferation.

Which only works with countries that are on our side. Not so much with those who we don't have good relations with.

I wish I could remember the name of the book. It's a good read if you can it.

I tried to google it but didn't have enough to go on to get any kind of reasonable results.
 
I don't think Obama is much of a legal scholar at all. I'm sure, however, that he will be offered a plum academic position post-Presidency that requires him to teach one class a year while enabling him to make Clintonesque money on the lecture circuit.

He's not. He's a talking head.

He didn't even know that a mandate is a tax.( snicker)
 
You mean "All hat and no cattle"?
 
Nationalism was a WWII thing, not really a WWI thing outside of some Serbs. Germany had to react to Russia mobilizing believing that they couldn't fight a two front war so they had planned to hit France first and take them out quickly. Since France had so many forts they planned to go through Belgium. They didn't even want to attack Belgium and they asked to be let to pass through, but were fought. Then, since England had their treaty with Belgium they had to jump in. The treaties and alliances made WWI happen, which then resulted in WWII and also the Lenin takeover of Russia, facilitated by Germany.

Nationalism was huge at the beginning of the 20th century, as were notions of racial and ethnic divisions, and a generally positive view of warfare. War was thought to bring glory to one's nation, and act as a kind of sharping tool for the nations's youth, training the strong, weeding out the weak, in a sort of Social Darwinism method of thought. Yes, the interlocking string of alliances were the final fuse, but it could not have happened without the accepted paradigm then existing. For a counterpoint, given current sentiment, how much support do you think there would be for another massive intervention in Iraq by the US, no matter what alliances may be in place?

We weren't openly in an alliance but we financially and materially supported England and Russia and had an embargo on Japan. I'm not sure how much of our survival it would have been. Germany had already been turned by Russia before we even had D-day, and were in full retreat. It would have lasted longer but Germany still would have lost. Of course, then all of Europe might have turned red and that would have been as bad as a Nazi Europe.

An isolationist US would have met with dire conditions if they had not intervened in the war. At the end of 1941, it was unknown whether Germany would win or lose. A German defeat of Russia (which was then the prevailing wisdom), and the utilization of their resources against Britain, could well have led to a fascist world over Europe, Asia, and Africa. This would have left the US in a distinctly minor position in the world, even without some sort of military action against it. Hitler was already pressuring Portugal for use of the Azores, in the mid-Atlantic, and planning ever bigger ships, including aircraft carriers. The US was supporting Britain, not out of alliance, but because they were on the front line, a place Americans would soon have to be, and every package of aid meant less blood and treasure for the US, in the long run.

It showed the opposite. By sitting out and entering later we ended up on top of the world.

To an extent. The US ended up on top because geography spared it, and by comparison with a bombed out rubble, the ramped up capability of the US looked pretty good indeed. An earlier intervention may have meant more of Europe and Asia intact, but it also would have meant less expenditure by the US needed to win the war. Britain and the empire were already in long term decline, and Stalinist Russia was not exactly a model of stability. A shorter war that crushed Germany may have been better all around, allowing for less expenditure by the US, stronger US allies in Europe at the end, and an exclusion of Russia from eastern Europe. That would have meant though.....forming an alliance. At any rate the US made a conscious decision to engage in the world through alliances after 1945, and maintain a strong military. If it had gone back to its prewar status, it would have shrunk back into isolationism, with negligible armed forces.

Which only works with countries that are on our side. Not so much with those who we don't have good relations with.

True, but dispersal of nuclear weapons still leads to greater security. A Japanese bomb would enrage China, and worry some of its east Asian former victims, igniting proliferation there. A German bomb would enrage Russia, redoubling their arms program, and truly reigniting the cold war. An Iranian bomb would cause Saudi Arabia to seek its own (it has already put out feelers), and both would put Israeli nuclear forces on high alert. And on it goes. A world community with agreed on treaties and understandings, imperfect though it may be, is still far better than a collection of armed camps, fearfully watching for who will pull the trigger first.

I tried to google it but didn't have enough to go on to get any kind of reasonable results.
 
Yup...he's been talking about problems with trade for a long time. Decades. It's one of the few things he's been consistent on. That aside, it doesn't matter if it's automated. Even automated plants create lots of jobs. People have to build it. People have to maintain it. Roads and power grids have to be built to support it. People have to deliver supplies to it and also take the goods away. Places have to be built to service the wants and needs of all those people.

When automation becomes viable as apposed to offshoring to low wage economies, then sure, we will see more domestically. That is already pretty much the case with the major industrial economies, when automated plants work, they function in high wage countries. But Trump is still lying.

He is telling rustbelt workers that good paying manufacturing jobs will come back, and the millions displaced can go into a time warp and have middle class job again. Automated factories do not employ millions, they employ vastly smaller numbers of technicians- IT people, engineers, and so on. That is the very reason they are viable, wage costs are vastly lower. The construction jobs you mention are one offs, where in fact they are even required, and service jobs are again minimal with software rather than people, and are also paid at the bottom end of the spectrum.

What will happen in the US, as is happening everywhere, is that the massive gains in productivity (and profits) available with software applications will become irresistible. Increased profits tend to rise up to the already well established, and former blue collar workers are shunted to low paid service work, or none at all. This is a problem Trump has not even begun to address, if he even has any notion that it exists (my bet: he doesn't).


Exactly, they move to places where they have standards that can't be competed with. And we are losing in trade deficit. Thank goodness we still have our defense companies. Making stuff to kill people is one of the few things we still make and sell around the world.

Everyone should have skin in the game and complicated codes only benefit those who can hire experts to exploit it. Also, the rich don't have enough money to pay for everything themselves. I would also like to see regressive consumption taxes (e.g. gas tax) go away.

By skin in the game, I am assuming you mean people making at least some modest effort in supporting society. Most people do, although many do not. Of the latter, some have no income, and others can have very high incomes. Judging what people are worth to society can become a little complex. A welfare bum can be a drag on society, a Wall Street wise guy squandering billions of other people's savings can be a much bigger drag.

There is nothing complex about a progressive tax system, it just means a few more tax brackets. It doesn't take an expert to figure those out. And if you do not like regressive taxes, then you shouldn't like a flat tax, because that is as regressive as you can get. There is an old English saying- the proof is in the pudding. Meaning in this case, it is the desired economic outcome one wants, not any particular attachment to a number or set of numbers.

The rich do not have enough money to pay for everything, and they do not. They pay for nothing at all. Society (government) injects funds into the economy to achieve certain aims. This is good up to a point, but too much in the system can cause inflation. At this point, it is wise to withdraw some, and also wise to do it in a systematic manner, to encourage certain behaviors, discourage others, direct funds to more pro-social areas, and withdraw them from more wasteful ones. A free market, left to its devices, tends to excess in many areas, which is not functional for society at large. These excesses are often better redirected, and taxation is a method of doing so.
 
And if you do not like regressive taxes, then you shouldn't like a flat tax, because that is as regressive as you can get.

A flat % tax is, by definition, neither regressive nor progressive. That aside, this is getting a little cumbersome so I cut it down to a more manageable level but it's been a good conversation.
 
A flat % tax is, by definition, neither regressive nor progressive. That aside, this is getting a little cumbersome so I cut it down to a more manageable level but it's been a good conversation.

A sales tax is regressive in that it is the same for all, rich or poor, and of course it is then less of a burden on the rich. A flat tax is virtually the same thing. Paying another 5% on a purchase is nothing for the affluent, but could be a make or break for the poor. A 10% income tax is nothing but a bookeeping item for the rich, but could be crushing for the poor. It is the same effect.

Furthermore, it is inefficient from an economic standpoint. Funds should be directed to where they do the most good in society, where they will be spent and re-spent. We can be sure that the financially limited, those working in modest jobs, and the middle class, tend to spent all or almost all their money (what choice have they got?), which has a multiplier effect in the economy. Those that have more than they can easily spend may or may not do something with their funds. They may be spent, used in speculation that creates bubbles in various assets, or simply removed from the economy and remaining sitting idle. Those societies with a strong middle class have historically done well, but that is just what we are moving away from today, even with a mildly progressive tax system. Warping even further would accentuate this trend.


By the way, I remembered that book- wrong science writer- that's what happens when you get old. It's "The Erie Silence":

Popular Articles & Essays | ASU CosmosPopular Articles & Essays | ASU Cosmos
 
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A sales tax is regressive in that it is the same for all, rich or poor, and of course it is then less of a burden on the rich.

Agreed.

A flat tax is virtually the same thing. Paying another 5% on a purchase is nothing for the affluent, but could be a make or break for the poor. A 10% income tax is nothing but a bookeeping item for the rich, but could be crushing for the poor. It is the same effect.

Not a flat sales tax, a flat income tax. Any income you get would be taxed and there are no loopholes or refunds. It is, by definition, neither progressive nor regressive.
 
Don't hold your breath waiting for a reply.

It's a lot easier for the far-right to spread BS than it is for them to produce documentation that doesn't exist.

...or DESTROY over 33,000 documents that DID EXIST....like your hero Hillary.
 
She has no one to blame but herself. Thing is she and her campaign didn't learn a thing.

Bills running around telling everyone she's fainted before because of dehydration. Basically telling everyone not to believe their lying eyes

It also shows that her first instinct is to lie.

And the libtards still push the Clinton narrative. :lamo
 
Agreed.



Not a flat sales tax, a flat income tax. Any income you get would be taxed and there are no loopholes or refunds. It is, by definition, neither progressive nor regressive.

There is nothing equitable nor necessarily fair about a fixed number. If I gave every employee in my factory a 3% raise, that would short change the most productive, yet reward the slackers for little effort. If a judge gave every bank robber who came into his court a 7 year sentence, that would let the mafioso's off the hook, but penalize the first offenders. There is nothing magical in a single number- or single percent. In this case, it is a redistribution of wealth, one that goes upward, to those who least need it, and generally provide the least economic advantage. It is not hard to guess who is promoting this notion the hardest, and why.
 
There is nothing equitable nor necessarily fair about a fixed number. If I gave every employee in my factory a 3% raise, that would short change the most productive, yet reward the slackers for little effort. If a judge gave every bank robber who came into his court a 7 year sentence, that would let the mafioso's off the hook, but penalize the first offenders. There is nothing magical in a single number- or single percent. In this case, it is a redistribution of wealth, one that goes upward, to those who least need it, and generally provide the least economic advantage. It is not hard to guess who is promoting this notion the hardest, and why.

Slacker or not slacker, income is the only relevant piece of data. If you go beyond that, then you're just opening up the door for the system to be abused and for the tax code to be rewritten numerous times for one group that wants special consideration for their pet groups, another group for their pet groups, another group for their pet groups, exemptions for their pet activity, exemptions for another pet activity, write-offs for one thing and another, ect. ect. ect.

The end product being an extremely complicated tax code that results in multi-billion dollar companies like GE not paying a single dollar in taxes while a working middle class family does.
 
Slacker or not slacker, income is the only relevant piece of data. If you go beyond that, then you're just opening up the door for the system to be abused and for the tax code to be rewritten numerous times for one group that wants special consideration for their pet groups, another group for their pet groups, another group for their pet groups, exemptions for their pet activity, exemptions for another pet activity, write-offs for one thing and another, ect. ect. ect.

The end product being an extremely complicated tax code that results in multi-billion dollar companies like GE not paying a single dollar in taxes while a working middle class family does.

You are arguing apples and oranges. The tax code could be vastly simplified, removing many loopholes, and still have a basic spectrum of tax levels. The latter is not complicated in the least. The current demands for a flat tax do indeed come from special interests, the most affluent in the country who have the most to gain from such a change. Your last sentence suggests you would like to see some basic equality and social justice in the workings of the economy. You will not get it in a system where fast operators on Wall Street can haul in 20 billion in a year for manipulations that add nothing to society, and pay the same tax rate as a hard working family man making $30,000 a year. Society has a right to lay down some basic markers on what individuals can take out of the economy. Individuals do not have unlimited rights to income, not unless they forego all benefits provided to them from the nation they live in, and produce all they have on a desert island somewhere, by themselves.
 
You are arguing apples and oranges. The tax code could be vastly simplified, removing many loopholes, and still have a basic spectrum of tax levels. The latter is not complicated in the least.

Of course it doesn't seem complicated to you because you only are looking to tinker with it from your own POV, not realizing that being able to tinker means that other side will tinker with it for their reasons. Tinker, tinker, tinker, tinker, back and forth...then, like I said, you have a complicated tax code. And, again, a flat % tax is neither progressive nor regressive. I would hazard the problem here is your idea of what those words mean is not what they actually mean. Once you look it up, you will see why I said that.
 
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