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Government is evil by nature

You don't make near the money it takes to corrupt government, so don't worry.

There comes a point when people have far in excess of the wealth they can use. At that point retire and go away. Don't worry someone else will take your place.

Who gets to decide when it's too much wealth other than the government?
Like I said,it's funny position for a "Libertarian" take.
I guess labels don't mean much anymore
 
..
It is impossible to have people in positions of power without them abusing that power and exploiting the people they are supposed to be serving.
NO man can resist the temptation to misuse power once it is obtained.
..
You biologically need to breathe clean air, does that mean, you have to ventilate the whole Earth in order to secure the health of your living nature? Is the World really so impossible that the whole must be changed in order to survive with peace and sound health?

Examine electricity as a power, does it seem evil to you? But still it is known to always run through the weakest obstacles to ground. For example the urge to pee, when it becomes strong, doesn't it also require of you to run the shortest possible route to toilet? And when a predator animal because of urge hunt and attack the weakest link in a chain to prey, doesn't that appear like electrical systematized nature also? But is it evil?

A human nature has many needs that urge it to do, actually those urges are human will. And if you for example were placed on the street homeless and without food, your for example hunger would drive you to "evil" stealing whether you liked it or not. Just regard for example the nature of travelling, do you make choices to take every step of the way, or is your body really travelling by itself while your mind is occupied by good and evil in the fiction Star Wars and yourself as Skywalker?
 
The idea that something is evil so therefore we should keep it seems to defy reason.
 
Who gets to decide when it's too much wealth other than the government?
Like I said,it's funny position for a "Libertarian" take.
I guess labels don't mean much anymore

I'm pretty sure he's not a libertarian. This became obvious to me when I had to explain to him what self ownership is and why slavery is against libertarian principles.
 
Government is evil by its very nature.
dr-evil-crying1.gif



Men are completely and totally corruptible, and airing power simply magnifies their ability and tendency to do evil. It is impossible to have people in positions of power without them abusing that power and exploiting the people they are supposed to be serving.
sigh

It is never possible for any human being to 100% perfect all of the time. That does not mean that it is impossible to hold political figures accountable, or that every person who gains political power will be infinitely corrupt.

Equally important is that there is no viable alternative method to organizing large societies. We need to grant a small group of individuals the ability to make political decisions, otherwise we will collapse into chaos and disorder. We mitigate many of these issues with a variety of mechanisms, ranging from formal accountability, to setting up terms in office, to term limits, to transparency laws, and regulations on their behavior.


The only way to control government is to keep it as small as is possible. The bigger government gets, the more corrupt it becomes and the more it enslaves the people it was created to serve.
lol

Yeah, that's not going to work, as our own recent history confirms. The same people who have spent decades telling us they want to shrink the government are often more than happy to increase spending, and institute their own regulations on our behavior -- including legislating sexual conduct between consenting adults, and/or expanding military spending, and/or increasing border enforcement.

I'm also curious, what does the public want to cut? In 2013, with the sequestration cuts looming, Pew did a poll on spending. It found that 70% of respondents wanted to reduce the deficit, but when asked about individual programs, they wanted to cut almost nothing.

2-22-13-99.png


The reality is that we have a large government because a) we want it, and b) we need it. And it's just going to get bigger.
 
I'm pretty sure he's not a libertarian. This became obvious to me when I had to explain to him what self ownership is and why slavery is against libertarian principles.

You are just to ignorant to comprehend the argument. In the 1700s slaves were not people they were property so there was no self ownership, they were the property of the owner. Does my dog have self ownership? That was the understanding of the time.
 
Who gets to decide when it's too much wealth other than the government?
Like I said,it's funny position for a "Libertarian" take.
I guess labels don't mean much anymore

When you have more money than you can spend in 1000 life times you have too much wealth, why can't you just retire and go away. The people don't need your kind corrupting our government so you can have more money than you can spend in 2000 life times. (By you I mean you in general not you specifically).
 
Really? Let's see. I remember buying raw milk for my kids. We made butter and cheese. Now, SWAT teams raid dairies and natural food stores looking for raw milk. Not being sold as pasteurized but clearly marked as raw milk.
Really? That actually happens, or you're exaggerating for rhetorical purposes?

And, remember when the Constitution protected you from being tried twice for the same criminal act. No more, that's gone.
That's worrying. Double jeopardy no longer applies? Since when?

And, what if you want to travel to Mexico and take a cashiers check so you can by a condo or a car?
Not allowed? Under what new laws?

And what if your daughter is the class valedictorian and she wants to thank a god for her success?
I'm pretty sure they do that all the time.

Or, what if you're a conservative group who wants the same tax breaks as a liberal group?
Examples? How about an atheist group receiving the same tax breaks as churches?

Of course, it depends on the freedom. If you value being free to close a bridge and prevent people from going home from work than you would be much more free now than in the past. On the other hand, if you'd like to be free to go home to your family after work, you're screwed. Or, if you want to be free to storm into a nice Sunday buffet, shouting obscenities and intimidating people then the government is your friend. On the other hand, if you'd like to take your grandmother to the Sunday brunch and enjoy a peaceful brunch with granny, you're screwed again.
Sounds like a lot of anecdotes filtered through the NY Post and Hannity.

Oh, wait, choice is a bad thing, isn't it? Choice of school, choice of health insurance, choice of doctor, choice in what you eat, choice in housing, choice, well, choice is bad when you have a government who can tell you what you have to do.
Well, it's not an intrinsic good. A choice of a dozen ****y options is worse than a couple of excellent services, more ≠ always better. However it's often only the action of government that prevents private individuals, cartels and corporations from developing lucrative and exploitative monopolies.
 
You are just to ignorant to comprehend the argument. In the 1700s slaves were not people they were property so there was no self ownership, they were the property of the owner. Does my dog have self ownership? That was the understanding of the time.

You were arguing that slavery was in line with libertarianism, so this is NOT an argument of what the law said at the time in the seventeen hundreds about slavery, but what libertarian philosophy says about slavery.
 
You were arguing that slavery was in line with libertarianism, so this is NOT an argument of what the law said at the time in the seventeen hundreds about slavery, but what libertarian philosophy says about slavery.

Go back and read our debate again I said it over and over and other people even commented on your inability to comprehend it.

In the 1700 the libertarian philosophy would have been the slaves are property and the government has no right to interfere with my property.

Self ownership applies to people not property, my toaster has no right to self ownership.
 
When you have more money than you can spend in 1000 life times you have too much wealth, why can't you just retire and go away. The people don't need your kind corrupting our government so you can have more money than you can spend in 2000 life times. (By you I mean you in general not you specifically).

You still haven't answered the question...who decides what is too much wealth other than the government?
Like I said,rather odd position for a so-called "Libertarian" to take.
 
You still haven't answered the question...who decides what is too much wealth other than the government?
Like I said,rather odd position for a so-called "Libertarian" to take.

It's not that hard, do you have enough money to live the rest of your life without working? Then retire. You serve no useful purpose, you did your part, don't worry someone will take over for you.
 
It's not that hard, do you have enough money to live the rest of your life without working? Then retire. You serve no useful purpose, you did your part, don't worry someone will take over for you.

Why should I?
I love what I do.
And I still haven't accomplished the goals I set for myself.
I want to put my restaurants in other countries,rather than just other States.
I am not content to just appear on morning news shows showing how to prepare a meal, I am getting off the ground my own cooking show.
I don't just want people to just eat at my restaurant,I am working on a line of frozen Creole meals for your local supermarket.
What's wrong with being ambitious?
 
I think there is a misguided notion, trumpeted in taverns, that believe if government is smaller that their taxes now go down. Well that is not always the case, when you shrink the federal government, states, counties, and cities are now left holding the bag for services the Federal government no longer funds. So all you are really doing is shifting your tax burden to a different column. The shift can cause your taxes to actually increase, or even worse remove a program you depend on. These bar room political theories are best left for closing time. In the real world they are dangerous.
 
Why should I?
I love what I do.
And I still haven't accomplished the goals I set for myself.
I want to put my restaurants in other countries,rather than just other States.
I am not content to just appear on morning news shows showing how to prepare a meal, I am getting off the ground my own cooking show.
I don't just want people to just eat at my restaurant,I am working on a line of frozen Creole meals for your local supermarket.
What's wrong with being ambitious?

If you already have enough money to live on comfortably for the rest of your life what is the purpose of making more money? I guess I'm just not ambitious or I don't get it. I know several people that own their own business, I don't get that either, they work long hours and make less than I do, why would anyone want that pain in the ass? I know a lawyer he works like 12+ hours a day, 7 days a week, he is so happy he's making tons of money, I don't get it, what good is having money, if all you do is work?
 
Really? Let's see. I remember buying raw milk for my kids. We made butter and cheese. Now, SWAT teams raid dairies and natural food stores looking for raw milk. Not being sold as pasteurized but clearly marked as raw milk.
Raw milk is illegal, because it can be very harmful. It can expose people to salmonella, e.coli and listeria.

It was officially discouraged since the 1920s, and was outlawed in 1987. Enforcement raids are exceedingly rare.


And, remember when the Constitution protected you from being tried twice for the same criminal act. No more, that's gone.
Incorrect


Of course, the all powers not granted to the federal government are retained by the states and the citizens. That's gone, too.
Incorrect


what if you're caught with cash when you're stopped by the police and it's taken as a civil seizure. No charges. No crime alleged.
Asset forfeiture is, I concur, a serious issue. However, your characterization is extreme and unhelpful.

If you cross a border with more than $10,000 in cash or related instruments (traveler's checks, a signed check made out to cash etc) you have to report the amount to customs. In case it is not obvious, this is to help deal with issues of money laundering, along with drug dealers moving cash around. If you're crossing the border with $2000 in cash, it will not be seized.

In that case, you have in fact broken the law, by failing to report. And while it is far from perfect, there is a process by which you can retrieve your funds.


what if you're a conservative group who wants the same tax breaks as a liberal group?
The IRS investigates all sorts of groups, from a variety of political ideologies. And unfortunately, Tea Party organizations gave the IRS lots of reasons to investigate them.


Of course, it depends on the freedom. If you value being free to close a bridge and prevent people from going home from work than you would be much more free now than in the past.
Educate thyself.

The Racist History Behind The Iconic Selma Bridge : Code Switch : NPR

150303-selma-bridge-jsw-652p_2d6a9f260d2ff62f56505aaf25b29edd.nbcnews-fp-360-360.jpg



On the other hand, if you'd like to be free to go home to your family after work, you're screwed. Or, if you want to be free to storm into a nice Sunday buffet, shouting obscenities and intimidating people then the government is your friend.
Whatever

continued....
 
If you already have enough money to live on comfortably for the rest of your life what is the purpose of making more money? I guess I'm just not ambitious or I don't get it. I know several people that own their own business, I don't get that either, they work long hours and make less than I do, why would anyone want that pain in the ass? I know a lawyer he works like 12+ hours a day, 7 days a week, he is so happy he's making tons of money, I don't get it, what good is having money, if all you do is work?

Maybe if you was doing what you love to do and making money off of it you would understand.
I love cooking,I love creating new recipes and I love running my own company.
 
Maybe if you was doing what you love to do and making money off of it you would understand.
I love cooking,I love creating new recipes and I love running my own company.

I am in IT I love what I do but I'd rather just do what ever the hell I want to do when ever I want to do it.

Then again I doubt I would keep doing IT if I didn't have to. Let me ask you, if you were wealth capped (Lets just say you agree with the idea for the sake of this question)

Would you still want to do all these things and do them for free then rather than just retiring?
 
So, tell me. What freedoms do you have now that you didn't have when you were younger?
You haven't actually specified a time frame, which is of course problematic in such an analysis. But, let's cover 1960s to present.

Sexual freedoms are a big one. Sodomy is no longer illegal; same-sex couples can get married; people are free to express their sexuality with far less harassment (official and unofficial) than at any point in the past. Abortion was legalized, though many conservatives are doing whatever they can to destroy the freedom of women, and have for decades. Availability of birth control is an important freedom.

Civil rights have expanded quite a bit. Significant legislation was passed in the 1960s. While it has taken years for this to disseminate into society, we are now largely at the point where discrimination is rarely accepted.

Separation of church and state is another benefit, albeit incomplete. The imposition of government on citizens, including by such things as a school allowing prayers to be announced in a coercive way (while still giving room for private expression of religious beliefs) is significant. Exposing "intelligent design" as a mere gambit by Creationists to impose their religious beliefs on others was shut down.

Freedom of expression is important as well. We've established that the government was not able to quash the Pentagon Papers; we saw a President who abused his authority and subverted the electoral system essentially thrown out of office. A critical right to protest, despite the distaste of government, has been well established (notably in the Skokie case).

I could go on, but those are a few notable examples.

Not everything has moved in one uniform direction -- that's extremely rare no matter what. In particular, things like the Patriot Act, the DMCA, the rebirth of the NSA in recent years, digital surveillance are all issues. But in many notable and important ways, the US has become more free in the past 30, 40, 50 years.


Why do you think our government is so determined to get rid of a Constitution that limits the government's power to a bit less than absolute?
Uh, hello? There is absolutely no indication of any such changes.


Can you remember when lying to the police wasn't a crime? I can. Now, if you witness a robbery, no the thugs who did it, and know what they and their friends will do if you tell the police, when you say, "I was in the bathroom and didn't see what happened," you've committed a felony in some places.
Lying to police in the course of an investigation is obstruction of justice. The severity (misdemeanor or felony) varies by jurisdiction and type of obstruction. This has been a crime for a long, long time and those laws have not changed.


choice is a bad thing, isn't it? Choice of school, choice of health insurance, choice of doctor, choice in what you eat, choice in housing, choice, well, choice is bad when you have a government who can tell you what you have to do.
Zomg... so much nonsense.

You certainly can choose the school you want. You just have to follow the rules, like everyone else. Oh, and don't ask the state to pay for your private school tuition. Freeloaders, I swear....

You certainly can choose your health insurance. In fact, before the ACA, many people were unable to get insurance, because insurers would refuse to cover them for pre-existing conditions.

You certainly can choose your doctor. You just have to follow the rules, like you always have. And just as it was in the past, if your doctor is not in-network, you have to pay for it. (And no, the ACA is not to blame for insurers cutting back on their networks, that was happening for years before the ACA.)

Your choice of food options has expanded ENORMOUSLY. When was the last time you were in a supermarket, 1975?


You are not providing anything remotely along the lines of a fact-based analysis of any changes in any measures of freedoms over time. What you are doing is conflating your own sense of nostalgia, and your own preferences, with broader changes over time. Sorry not sorry, but your post is emotional rather than factual, and as such is wholly unpersuasive.
 
I am in IT I love what I do but I'd rather just do what ever the hell I want to do when ever I want to do it.

Then again I doubt I would keep doing IT if I didn't have to. Let me ask you, if you were wealth capped (Lets just say you agree with the idea for the sake of this question)

Would you still want to do all these things and do them for free then rather than just retiring?

The cooking and recipe making yes,the doing so for free,hell no.

What you are proposing restricts my right to reach my full potential.
You are proposing restricting my right to the "pursuit of happiness".
Like I said,rather odd position for a "Libertarian" to take.
Maybe the title "Liberal" would be more fitting.
 
The cooking and recipe making yes,the doing so for free,hell no.

What you are proposing restricts my right to reach my full potential.
You are proposing restricting my right to the "pursuit of happiness".
Like I said,rather odd position for a "Libertarian" to take.
Maybe the title "Liberal" would be more fitting.

So you don't really love doing it then, you do it for the money.

If I was proposing it as a liberal I would say we should take your money, wealth redistribution, I'm not I'm proposing that there be a finish line.

If you have $1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 and you only need $1, what is the point in making more money? At this point if you really loved doing something you would do it for free, in fact most people pay good money to do the things they love to do.
 
So you don't really love doing it then, you do it for the money.

If I was proposing it as a liberal I would say we should take your money, wealth redistribution, I'm not I'm proposing that there be a finish line.

If you have $1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 and you only need $1, what is the point in making more money? At this point if you really loved doing something you would do it for free, in fact most people pay good money to do the things they love to do.

That's not for you to decide,now is it?
 
That's not for you to decide,now is it?

People with too much wealth and power have been the problem since the beginning of society. It should no longer be tolerated. In Sparta, if any one man became too wealthy and powerful and was corrupting the government they would have a vote and if the people found him to be too disruptive they would strip him of everything he owned and exile him to the forests. Not a bad idea IMO. Maybe I'm not a libertarian in everything I believe in but on this history has proven I am correct. No government big or small, no constitution ever written can withstand the corruption that comes from men with unlimited wealth. IMO the principles of libertarianism can not withstand this either, the reason why we have corruption, cronyism and the Nanny State we have today is that men like Soros, for example, have corrupted our government, chipped away at the constitution and are now trying to erode our Sovereignty globally with their wealth. You look at it from the narrow mind of a simple business man like yourself, but you will never accumulate the type of wealth and power I'm talking about. You are a victim in this too.
 
People with too much wealth and power have been the problem since the beginning of society. It should no longer be tolerated. In Sparta, if any one man became too wealthy and powerful and was corrupting the government they would have a vote and if the people found him to be too disruptive they would strip him of everything he owned and exile him to the forests. Not a bad idea IMO. Maybe I'm not a libertarian in everything I believe in but on this history has proven I am correct. No government big or small, no constitution ever written can withstand the corruption that comes from men with unlimited wealth. IMO the principles of libertarianism can not withstand this either, the reason why we have corruption, cronyism and the Nanny State we have today is that men like Soros, for example, have corrupted our government, chipped away at the constitution and are now trying to erode our Sovereignty globally with their wealth. You look at it from the narrow mind of a simple business man like yourself, but you will never accumulate the type of wealth and power I'm talking about. You are a victim in this too.

So you want to be able to decide how much someone should gets?
Or the government?

Narrow mind?
I figured out what it took to become successful and prosperous at age 11 and I worked hard to achieve it.
You haven't,so don't act so high and mighty.
Maybe you are not as smart as you seem to think you are.
 
So you want to be able to decide how much someone should gets?
Or the government?

Narrow mind?
I figured out what it took to become successful and prosperous at age 11 and I worked hard to achieve it.
You haven't,so don't act so high and mighty.
Maybe you are not as smart as you seem to think you are.

There is nothing you have done, or will do, that would put you any where near the amount of money necessary to corrupt our government, so you are defending yourself against something that would never effect you anyways.
You think owning a dozen restaurants, a few grocery stores with your frozen food in it and being on a cooking show puts you anywhere near the wealth I'm talking about?
When you own as much as Wal-Mart, for example, so you can corrupt the government and corrupt the free market and corrupt the tax system then we have problems.

They used to call these people robber barons, they had to be shut down, this is nothing new I am proposing.
 
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