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Alcohol AGE 21..Voting AgE 18 = HYPOCRITCAL also proves liberalism comes from unwise

Re: Alcohol AGE 21..Voting AgE 18 = HYPOCRITCAL also proves liberalism comes from un

The inability of yoofs to make sounds judgements is well documented in both our personal and public lives. It's time to raise the voting age.

:shrug:

show me the facts and I will consider them

if you have no facts then it is a purely emotion based conclusion which has zero clout
 
Re: Alcohol AGE 21..Voting AgE 18 = HYPOCRITCAL also proves liberalism comes from un

The only thing we should have to wait for 21 to do is gamble and go to strip/sex clubs.

Why is 21 ok for alcohol but not for gambling/strip clubs???

Honestly I think it should be either 18 or 21 across the board. Once someone is an adult, they're an adult.

And, just maybe, statistics.

Effects of Minimum Drinking Age Laws

The 21 Law Saves Lives

• By the end of 2005, the 32 minimum drinking age law had saved nearly 25,000 American lives. In fact, the law saves approximately 1,000 lives a year.
ii • Since the early 1960's, the number of young people killed annually in crashes involving drunk drivers under 21 has been cut in half, from more than 5,000 young people in the early 1980s to nearly 2,000 in 2005.
iii • In 2005, 2.035 youth ages 15 to 20 were killed in alcohol-related traffic crashes, translating to 33 percent of all fatalities in that age group.
iv • Research indicates that when the minimum legal drinking age is 21, people under 21 drink less overall and continue to do so through their early 20's.
v • When the drinking age has been lowered, injury and death rates significantly increase.
vi • The Center for Disease Control (CDC) has reviewed nearly 50 peer-reviewed studies of countries that had changed their drinking age and found that lowering the minimum drinking age to 18 increases fatalities by 10 percent.

For link to the pdf, Google "Underage Drinking and the 21 Legal Drinking Age--MADD.

Yeah but you could raise the drinking age to 24 and get similar results (or 35, 50, etc etc). An adult is an adult.
 
Re: Alcohol AGE 21..Voting AgE 18 = HYPOCRITCAL also proves liberalism comes from un

Same with really old folks, often their judgement is impaired which is why they're targeted by solicitors and scam artists
You've a point, however scams artists work fast to bamboozle the target.

This is not so with politicians. The electorate of all ages are given MONTHS to be bamboozled. You see the obvious fault in your point now ?
 
Re: Alcohol AGE 21..Voting AgE 18 = HYPOCRITCAL also proves liberalism comes from un

:shrug:

show me the facts and I will consider them

if you have no facts then it is a purely emotion based conclusion which has zero clout

Pfft. Ok I'll start posting the billions of examples. Not.

See video.
 
Re: Alcohol AGE 21..Voting AgE 18 = HYPOCRITCAL also proves liberalism comes from un

that's an interesting take although I would say educating youth with regard to drinking and driving is about more than attempting to save them from every possible harm

a co-worker is attempting to get her 21 year old to go to an AA meeting this week because he simply does not understand that driving while drunk could result in immense harm to both himself and others

he does it constantly so he "knows" it's safe

some kids simply do not "get it" and the reason for that is frontal lobe thinking

We can't save everyone, and the stupid ones can go first
My daugher as we sat around the family bonfire late one night.


Youth usually think they are invincible. A part of the job of parenting is to predict this, and to counteract this, which must be done during a time when the kids take the parents seriously, which usually means that earlier is better than later.

Your story sounds like parenting failure rather than kid failure to me.
 
Re: Alcohol AGE 21..Voting AgE 18 = HYPOCRITCAL also proves liberalism comes from un

My daugher as we sat around the family bonfire late one night.


Youth usually think they are invincible. A part of the job of parenting is to predict this, and to counteract this, which must be done during a time when the kids take the parents seriously, which usually means that earlier is better than later.

Your story sounds like parenting failure rather than kid failure to me.

an interesting judgement
 
Re: Alcohol AGE 21..Voting AgE 18 = HYPOCRITCAL also proves liberalism comes from un

Why is 21 ok for alcohol but not for gambling/strip clubs???

.

15
sex
16
drive car
beer/wine
18
military
vote
smoke
drink hard stuff
21
sex worker/sex purchasing
gambling including lotto
truck/bus driver
large aircraft pilot
 
Re: Alcohol AGE 21..Voting AgE 18 = HYPOCRITCAL also proves liberalism comes from un

15
sex
16
drive car
beer/wine
18
military
vote
smoke
drink hard stuff
21
sex worker/sex purchasing
gambling including lotto
truck/bus driver
large aircraft pilot

Can you provide any justification for these?
 
Re: Alcohol AGE 21..Voting AgE 18 = HYPOCRITCAL also proves liberalism comes from un

Can you provide any justification for these?

My life experience informs me that these are the best ages for the milestones to take place. I could probably give you 500 words of argument on each one but I am not going to do it here. Childrearing, teen freedom, and the conflict between the individual and the collective are subjects that I have taken a deep interest in over many years, so I tend to talk about them all on a somewhat regular basis. I come at this as a person who is deeply hostile towards victim culture, and who was a free range parent before it was a thing. I was also a stay at home homeschooling dad for more than a decade before it was a thing.
 
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Re: Alcohol AGE 21..Voting AgE 18 = HYPOCRITCAL also proves liberalism comes from un

My life experience informs me that these are the best ages for the milestones to take place. I could probably give you 500 words of argument on each one but I am not going to do it here. Childrearing, teen freedom, and the conflict between the individual and the collective are subjects that I have taken a deep interest in over many years, so I tend to talk about them all on a somewhat regular basis. I come at this as a person who is deeply hostile to victim culture, and who was a free range parent before it was a thing. I was also a stay at home homeschooling dad before it was a thing.

I'd prefer reasoned argument. 'Life experience' doesn't really mean much when everyone's is different.

Limits like theses are never going to be perfect. Ultimately, all kids mature at different rates, but it does seem rather arbitrary to suggest someone can lay their life down for their country (and understand the ramifications of signing up) before they can buy a lotto ticket.
 
Re: Alcohol AGE 21..Voting AgE 18 = HYPOCRITCAL also proves liberalism comes from un

I'd prefer reasoned argument. 'Life experience' doesn't really mean much when everyone's is different.

Limits like theses are never going to be perfect. Ultimately, all kids mature at different rates, but it does seem rather arbitrary to suggest someone can lay their life down for their country (and understand the ramifications of signing up) before they can buy a lotto ticket.

And you say this not long after we had the Great Recession lesson on the dangers of gambling.......
 
Re: Alcohol AGE 21..Voting AgE 18 = HYPOCRITCAL also proves liberalism comes from un

And you say this not long after we had the Great Recession lesson on the dangers of gambling.......

Yeah because it was all those 18-21 year olds buying lotto tickets that caused the great recession :roll:

Not that lotto tickets are a good idea as most mathematically literate people will know.
 
Re: Alcohol AGE 21..Voting AgE 18 = HYPOCRITCAL also proves liberalism comes from un

Yeah because it was all those 18-21 year olds buying lotto tickets that caused the great recession :roll:

Not that lotto tickets are a good idea as most mathematically literate people will know.

THe law informs us of what the collective approves of and what we do not approve of. Gambling is so destructive with so little pay off that it should not be accepted as much as it is. Certainly the government should not be a participant so far as to run the games themselves. I was against state lotteries when Ill started to sell the idea in 1972, and I am still against them. I was pretty happy when legal gambling consisted of Vegas, horse racing, and bingo at church.
 
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Re: Alcohol AGE 21..Voting AgE 18 = HYPOCRITCAL also proves liberalism comes from un

Two things, find me an unbiased source and secondly find me a source that can contribute those decreases exclusively to the higher drinking age. Or are you the kind of person that believes raising the drinking magically stops anyone under that age form drinking. Even for the sake of argument that was found to be entirely attributable to a higher drinking age should we not just logically ban drinking to get rid of all negative side effects on society from alcohol.

I'm the kind of person who was alive and an adult when the drinking age was lowered, who saw what the consequences were, and was grateful when her state raised the drinking age back up to 21. Are you the kind of person who dismisses out of hand statistics if they're from a source (such as MADD) that you don't like? And do you have an animus toward the CDC?
 
Re: Alcohol AGE 21..Voting AgE 18 = HYPOCRITCAL also proves liberalism comes from un

I'm the kind of person who was alive and an adult when the drinking age was lowered, who saw what the consequences were, and was grateful when her state raised the drinking age back up to 21. Are you the kind of person who dismisses out of hand statistics if they're from a source (such as MADD) that you don't like? And do you have an animus toward the CDC?

There is none of what they said can contributed exclusively to a higher drinking age and using a MADD study for drinking age is like quoting a cancer study funded by cigarette companies. I have lived in Belgium where the drinking age is 16 (not really enforced), my school even had a bar in it (a high school), they are a lot more responsible, they actually know how to drink responsibly. What exactly does a higher drinking age accomplish? Nothing because people under will still drink. If we follow your logic we should just ban alcohol to end all drunk driving and other effects of alcohol.
 
Re: Alcohol AGE 21..Voting AgE 18 = HYPOCRITCAL also proves liberalism comes from un

There is none of what they said can contributed exclusively to a higher drinking age and using a MADD study for drinking age is like quoting a cancer study funded by cigarette companies. I have lived in Belgium where the drinking age is 16 (not really enforced), my school even had a bar in it (a high school), they are a lot more responsible, they actually know how to drink responsibly. What exactly does a higher drinking age accomplish? Nothing because people under will still drink. If we follow your logic we should just ban alcohol to end all drunk driving and other effects of alcohol.

My logic? :roll: The sum total of what I've said is that I'm glad my state raised the drinking age back to 21.

If you have an objection to the stats offered by MADD, dispute them. Your anecdotal experience of high school in Belgium can't replace facts.
 
Re: Alcohol AGE 21..Voting AgE 18 = HYPOCRITCAL also proves liberalism comes from un

My logic? :roll: The sum total of what I've said is that I'm glad my state raised the drinking age back to 21.

If you have an objection to the stats offered by MADD, dispute them. Your anecdotal experience of high school in Belgium can't replace facts.

I've seen MADD stats claiming that 100% of deaths were due to drunk driving. That's when they lost all credibility
 
Re: Alcohol AGE 21..Voting AgE 18 = HYPOCRITCAL also proves liberalism comes from un

My logic? :roll: The sum total of what I've said is that I'm glad my state raised the drinking age back to 21.

If you have an objection to the stats offered by MADD, dispute them. Your anecdotal experience of high school in Belgium can't replace facts.

That is your anecdotal evidence. None of their findings show that raising the drinking age was responsible for the decline and it is really impossible to know because there are so many other factors to consider that is does not mention nor take into account. MADD does a good service when it raises awareness of drunk driving but they often seem to take it too far demonizing any consumption of alcohol. Raising the drinking age will not stop drunk driving deaths. How can it?
 
Re: Alcohol AGE 21..Voting AgE 18 = HYPOCRITCAL also proves liberalism comes from un

I'd prefer reasoned argument. 'Life experience' doesn't really mean much when everyone's is different.

Limits like theses are never going to be perfect. Ultimately, all kids mature at different rates, but it does seem rather arbitrary to suggest someone can lay their life down for their country (and understand the ramifications of signing up) before they can buy a lotto ticket.

HUMAN Life Experience IS the most important data to analyze... Logic decides what is valuable to analyze and without experience there is NO DATA to analyze.. so yes the young are more unwise than the older if everything else is equal
 
Re: Alcohol AGE 21..Voting AgE 18 = HYPOCRITCAL also proves liberalism comes from un

I'd prefer reasoned argument. 'Life experience' doesn't really mean much when everyone's is different.

Limits like theses are never going to be perfect. Ultimately, all kids mature at different rates, but it does seem rather arbitrary to suggest someone can lay their life down for their country (and understand the ramifications of signing up) before they can buy a lotto ticket.


yes they mature at different rates... and that is one of the big reasons to make a wisdom test for voters..BUT have it where the higher IQ's have had enough experience... voting should pass a wisdom test and an age test of 20 or more

why is it that people cannot run for president.. for senators.. for representatives at DIFFERENT AGE LIMITS?? and the higher the power the older the age limit... proving wisdom comes from age if all other things are equal

so soon coming a wisdom test for voters and age past 30
 
Re: Alcohol AGE 21..Voting AgE 18 = HYPOCRITCAL also proves liberalism comes from un

HUMAN Life Experience IS the most important data to analyze... Logic decides what is valuable to analyze and without experience there is NO DATA to analyze.. so yes the young are more unwise than the older if everything else is equal

OK but what about when 2 'human life experiences' disagree. Say, an old person thinks that (based on their life experience) you shouldn't be able to drink until you're 50 years old.

You can't go around making laws simply based on your life experiences because peoples life experiences are vastly different. You have to take other peoples views into account.
 
Re: Alcohol AGE 21..Voting AgE 18 = HYPOCRITCAL also proves liberalism comes from un

yes they mature at different rates... and that is one of the big reasons to make a wisdom test for voters..BUT have it where the higher IQ's have had enough experience... voting should pass a wisdom test and an age test of 20 or more

why is it that people cannot run for president.. for senators.. for representatives at DIFFERENT AGE LIMITS?? and the higher the power the older the age limit... proving wisdom comes from age if all other things are equal

so soon coming a wisdom test for voters and age past 30

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Re: Alcohol AGE 21..Voting AgE 18 = HYPOCRITCAL also proves liberalism comes from un

OK but what about when 2 'human life experiences' disagree. Say, an old person thinks that (based on their life experience) you shouldn't be able to drink until you're 50 years old.

You can't go around making laws simply based on your life experiences because peoples life experiences are vastly different. You have to take other peoples views into account.


if one that passes a higher logical thinking ability test... yes that would trump just plain experience... that logic can decide what that extra experience proves better
 
Re: Alcohol AGE 21..Voting AgE 18 = HYPOCRITCAL also proves liberalism comes from un

How about an age limit on dancing at strip clubs?

Good idea Winchester. I think no ladies over 70 should be dancing in Strip Clubs. Sorry for the ageism but grannies must face reality - cosmetic surgery has its limits.
 
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