Chickens coming home to roost?

ttwtt78640 said:

Why didn't we see a huge increase in violent crime during and following WWII when a far higher percentage of our population was direcly invloved in the war effort?

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I get it that the author is against use of (US?) military force but to assert that it (only the war on terror?) causes violent crime (mass shootings?) is not supported by any facts. Everyone else in his NG unit, who was deployed in Afghanistan along side him, seemed to have managaed not to become a crazed, racist, cop killer. A few chickens will go rogue (engage in violent crime) regardless of US foreign policy or their mllilitary service status. This OP linked writer has a theory but not much to support it.

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different time in history with a different attitude toward authority within society as well as a completely different economy...(which was booming)

_Sal said:

no because you can not ignore the psychology of human kind...there can be no solution for security unless looked at as a whole...you will never come up with a solution that will work until the whole is considered

it is not a simplified argument it is merely a "point" in the whole

but it is a vital component

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True. I am even convinced that most decisions are emotional in the sense that at the end of the day and after weighing and measuring and doing the maths, you can only do, what you most want to do. On the other hand, that does not mean that it will improve the decision, if you do not do not collect the material and do the math. That is the problem with the opener. The most determining material is ignored and the known math goes unmentioned.

joG said:

True. I am even convinced that most decisions are emotional in the sense that at the end of the day and after weighing and measuring and doing the maths, you can only do, what you most want to do. On the other hand, that does not mean that it will improve the decision, if you do not do not collect the material and do the math. That is the problem with the opener. The most determining material is ignored and the known math goes unmentioned.

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it is complex for sure

and

the world is in a mess

right now the only thing I know I can affect with any certainty is how I am and what I bring to my own small table

Thoreau72 said:

No, he's not saying that.

He is saying that when we teach violence and hold it up as a solution to all problems anywhere in the world, we should expect some level of blowback.

He is saying when the government practices that there is a military solution to each and every problem in the world, we should not be surprised when individuals take that philosophy to heart, and also apply it to any problems they might perceive.

That is, violence begets violence.

Not that violence cannot happen on its own, but when violence is demonstrated by the government to be the solution for all the world's problems, ordinary citizens will often embrace that philosophy.

To paraphrase Brandeis, for better or for worse, the government teaches by example. That's what Perry was talking about.

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There is a part of me that thinks, after the Dallas police killings, that it was indeed a "chickens coming home to roost" scenario. When a person or group of people feel pushed into a corner, and they keep seeing instance after instance of police killing black men... and, to make it worse, getting away with it in a majority of the most egregious circumstances... then what the hell are said black men supposed to think and feel, or even do?

My perspective isn't a worldwide lesson being grasped here, but rather a more personal close-to-home lessen being taught.

radcen said:

There is a part of me that thinks, after the Dallas police killings, that it was indeed a "chickens coming home to roost" scenario. When a person or group of people feel pushed into a corner, and they keep seeing instance after instance of police killing black men... and, to make it worse, getting away with it in a majority of the most egregious circumstances... then what the hell are said black men supposed to think and feel, or even do?

My perspective isn't a worldwide lesson being grasped here, but rather a more personal close-to-home lessen being taught.

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that is nicely put

I fear for what is coming

Thoreau72 said:

An article by Jack Perry at Lew Rockwell asks some interesting questions.

Spare Me the Maudlin Theatrics, Please - LewRockwell

Any thoughts?

Have the seeds we have been sowing with the War On Terror bearing unexpected fruit?

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LR is a bit more dystopian than I am. He is always seeing the sky falling. But, he's not really too far off base with his general premise: the sky is getting lower.

We have armed guards lining the path at Tour De France. The upcoming Olympics will be a huge spectacle, but one built on lies and a heavy dose of image management, while in the background cops will be killing poor people and the government will continue to completely ignore their needs. This, in my opinion, is a tend: paint a rosy picture, protect those things that have value, and let the masses go to ****.

Well...how long before the masses see through it and rise up? These shootings are just the cracks in the foundation which are above ground and easy to see. Under the soil, it's a lot worse.

_Sal said:

that is nicely put

I fear for what is coming

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I fear what is coming, too, and have been feeling very bewildered over the situation the last few days. Bewildered because, after seeing so many people sharing their thoughts and feelings, I am more convinced than ever that we are not even close to being mature enough as a society to even talk about it, let alone make progress in solving it. And that is not a good scenario.

To add to my previous post, I cannot and do not condone what the Dallas shooter did, but intellectually I can understand it. At least he was targeting only the specific group for which he placed blame. There is an aspect of legitimacy in that.

What I will never understand, and what I will always utterly reject as a valid response, is wanton rioting and looting. You're not targeting what you perceive as the 'bad guy'. No, all you're doing is destroying the lives and livelihoods of innocent and otherwise uninvolved people who are not directly related to your cause. Many times, you're own friends and neighbors. In other words, you're just being an asshole.

_Sal said:

it is complex for sure

and

the world is in a mess

right now the only thing I know I can affect with any certainty is how I am and what I bring to my own small table

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That makes sense.

radcen said:

I fear what is coming, too, and have been feeling very bewildered over the situation the last few days. Bewildered because, after seeing so many people sharing their thoughts and feelings, I am more convinced than ever that we are not even close to being mature enough as a society to even talk about it, let alone make progress in solving it. And that is not a good scenario.

To add to my previous post, I cannot and do not condone what the Dallas shooter did, but intellectually I can understand it. At least he was targeting only the specific group for which he placed blame. There is an aspect of legitimacy in that.

What I will never understand, and what I will always utterly reject as a valid response, is wanton rioting and looting. You're not targeting what you perceive as the 'bad guy'. No, all you're doing is destroying the lives and livelihoods of innocent and otherwise uninvolved people who are not directly related to your cause. Many times, you're own friends and neighbors. In other words, you're just being an asshole.

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there are many of us feeling precisely that way...what to do, what to do...

there is another post here by code1211 he is lamenting the same thing

I know we are in big crap and bigger crap is coming...

http://www.debatepolitics.com/gener...8-intrudes-into-my-life-3.html#post1066059453

as fear builds and people feel like they have no control they become desperate and things go down in nasty ways

_Sal said:

there are many of us feeling precisely that way...what to do, what to do...

there is another post here by code1211 he is lamenting the same thing

I know we are in big crap and bigger crap is coming...

http://www.debatepolitics.com/gener...8-intrudes-into-my-life-3.html#post1066059453

as fear builds and people feel like they have no control they become desperate and things go down in nasty ways

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That's a natural human response. I don't get why it keeps surprising so many people.

radcen said:

There is a part of me that thinks, after the Dallas police killings, that it was indeed a "chickens coming home to roost" scenario. When a person or group of people feel pushed into a corner, and they keep seeing instance after instance of police killing black men... and, to make it worse, getting away with it in a majority of the most egregious circumstances... then what the hell are said black men supposed to think and feel, or even do?

My perspective isn't a worldwide lesson being grasped here, but rather a more personal close-to-home lessen being taught.

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Ironically, the police chief in Dallas had just cleaned house and fired several cops. If any police force in the country was not responsible for unnecessary shootings of black citizens, it was that one.

As for this:

Will the media be true to truth and call this a “hate crime” or will this be gussied up in some apologetic poppycock engineered to absolve the reality from being held accountable?

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the clear answer is neither one. This crime is not a "hate crime", as that is a legal term with a legal definition, and not simply a crime motivated by hate.

and no one apologized for the perp or tried to justify what he did, or at least no one in the media did.

Now, the theme of the piece seems to be that the so called "war on terror" has resulted in more terror, more violence, more insanity. Now, think back, go way back to the beginning when the Soviets were fighting the Mujahadeen, fast forward to modern day Iraq and the goings on there, remember that our CIC just made the decision to keep US troops in Afganistan in what has been called the longest war in US history and ask yourself if the author doesn't have a point.

Dittohead not! said:

Ironically, the police chief in Dallas had just cleaned house and fired several cops. If any police force in the country was not responsible for unnecessary shootings of black citizens, it was that one.

As for this:



the clear answer is neither one. This crime is not a "hate crime", as that is a legal term with a legal definition, and not simply a crime motivated by hate.

and no one apologized for the perp or tried to justify what he did, or at least no one in the media did.

Now, the theme of the piece seems to be that the so called "war on terror" has resulted in more terror, more violence, more insanity. Now, think back, go way back to the beginning when the Soviets were fighting the Mujahadeen, fast forward to modern day Iraq and the goings on there, remember that our CIC just made the decision to keep US troops in Afganistan in what has been called the longest war in US history and ask yourself if the author doesn't have a point.

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That is absolutely correct. I knew that, it just hadn't come up in my conversations, though I probably should have made note of it.

Dallas has actually been making efforts to fix their side of the problem, and having some success. Whether the shooter knew that at all, or knew and didn't care, I don't know. I still do not think that fully discounts the aspect of legitimacy in his target in a generic sense, but it doesn't help it, either.

radcen said:

That's a natural human response. I don't get why it keeps surprising so many people.

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my guess would be willful ignorance

_Sal said:

my guess would be willful ignorance

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I cannot discount that.

Let's not forget, this guy was not a US trained "killing machine." He was just a panty stealing nut.

But by numerous reports, Johnson and his Army Reserves engineering unit did not see so much as a moment of combat.

At least part of Johnson’s manifest transformation seems to have been the result not of PTSD, but of what might be termed PTDD, Post Traumatic Disgrace Disorder...

“He got caught stealing girls’ panties but murdering cops is a different story,” his former bunkmate wrote. “You really never know what someone is capable of until it’s too late.”

Micah Johnson Was Kicked Out of the Army for Stealing Panties - The Daily Beast

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Thoreau72 said:

An article by Jack Perry at Lew Rockwell asks some interesting questions.

Spare Me the Maudlin Theatrics, Please - LewRockwell

Any thoughts?

Have the seeds we have been sowing with the War On Terror bearing unexpected fruit?

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He makes some bizarre statements:

It would appear our government trained the wrong guy. Or, rather, he went and killed people the government didn’t order him to.

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Why not view it as: It appears this once country-loving individual turned against his own kind. (?)

when you justify the killing of other people based on the “They Are Not Us” philosophy, that is exactly the belief system people will take home and manifest into your society later.

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Who's doing this?

If the government holds fast to the idea that war is diplomacy by other means, guess what?

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He keeps wanting to point the concept of 'liberation / change through violence' back on our US government - as if ONLY the US government has upheld this as a false dichotomy. But trying to compel a group of people / a nation / or a government to change by use of violence against them is WHAT fuels revolution and has been done for CENTURIES - well - probably as far back as the first human went 'A pointed weapon! What to do with it? Oh! Kill someone!'

For how intelligent this guy seems, he doesn't understand anything about human nature and human history. He's a pacifistic liberal trying to comment on something he can't seem to fully grasp.

More prayers to some vague deity no one can name anymore because they don’t even know who this deity is. Or if there is one.

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And now he's attacking religion and prayer? Wow - this guy is a piece of work.

But I wonder when we will finally see that you cannot teach this violence to an entire country and not expect violence.

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So societies that are far more pacifistic don't ever have violent people who do violent things?

I recall clearly when Anders Breivik went on a psychopathic rampage and bombed / shot - killing 77 people in the pacifistic society of Norway.

But I guess, because they embrace peace and officers that don't use firearms, their cry for peace is more 'substantiated' to Jack Perry? . . . my my my.

He sounds like the type of idiot fool dolt who was going all 'The shooting of Bagrielle Giffords by madman Loughner is because we use phrases like 'bullseye' and 'hits the mark' in the media' and really try to convince people it was all our fault. If we'd only stop using the words 'shoot' instead of 'darn' all those people would still be alive, today.

In short = he's a total ****ing moron.

When politicians consider war, they should be lining up their kids first in line at the local recruiter's office.

They might have a different perspective once they see their own kids suffer the loss of limbs and life.

Kudo's the the politicians that have served and keep that perspective, but many of them have not.

John McCain comes to mind. Has he ever seen a country that he didn't want to bomb? (snark)

Aunt Spiker said:

He makes some bizarre statements:



Why not view it as: It appears this once country-loving individual turned against his own kind. (?)



Who's doing this?



He keeps wanting to point the concept of 'liberation / change through violence' back on our US government - as if ONLY the US government has upheld this as a false dichotomy. But trying to compel a group of people / a nation / or a government to change by use of violence against them is WHAT fuels revolution and has been done for CENTURIES - well - probably as far back as the first human went 'A pointed weapon! What to do with it? Oh! Kill someone!'

For how intelligent this guy seems, he doesn't understand anything about human nature and human history. He's a pacifistic liberal trying to comment on something he can't seem to fully grasp.



And now he's attacking religion and prayer? Wow - this guy is a piece of work.



So societies that are far more pacifistic don't ever have violent people who do violent things?

I recall clearly when Anders Breivik went on a psychopathic rampage and bombed / shot - killing 77 people in the pacifistic society of Norway.

But I guess, because they embrace peace and officers that don't use firearms, their cry for peace is more 'substantiated' to Jack Perry? . . . my my my.

He sounds like the type of idiot fool dolt who was going all 'The shooting of Bagrielle Giffords by madman Loughner is because we use phrases like 'bullseye' and 'hits the mark' in the media' and really try to convince people it was all our fault. If we'd only stop using the words 'shoot' instead of 'darn' all those people would still be alive, today.

In short = he's a total ****ing moron.

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You don't like what the guy wrote. No problem.

I think he brings up controversial ideas that just might be right. No problem.

Thoreau72 said:

Bravo! For some reason there is no "like" button for your post, but I agree completely.

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If you like that post so much and are in such close agreement you should extrapolate its implications out a bit further.