• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Another World is Possible

poweRob said:
How come in your links the word anarchists or anarchy doesn't exist... sans the "see also" section of the first one?
Click to expand...
That's right, poweRob, blow off your other foot, too. And for all the world to see.

Who founded the Escuela Moderna?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisco_Ferrer_Guardia

The CNT was an anarcho-syndicalist union and played a central role in the Spanish Revolution. Didn't you read the article or see the red-black colors?

Mutual Aid is a core anarchist concept. In fact it was the title of one of Kropotkin's most noted books. (I guess you didn't notice the circle A thingy in the photo.)
https://www.amazon.com/Mutual-Aid-Evolution-Peter-Kropotkin/dp/1497333733

Where did you learn how to debate? Do they offer refunds?
 
TGN said:
That's right, poweRob, blow off your other foot, too. And for all the world to see.

Who founded the Escuela Moderna?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisco_Ferrer_Guardia

The CNT was an anarcho-syndicalist union and played a central role in the Spanish Revolution. Didn't you read the article or see the red-black colors?

Mutual Aid is a core anarchist concept. In fact it was the title of one of Kropotkin's most noted books. (I guess you didn't notice the circle A thingy in the photo.)
https://www.amazon.com/Mutual-Aid-Evolution-Peter-Kropotkin/dp/1497333733

Where did you learn how to debate? Do they offer refunds?
Click to expand...

No need to get pissy. I really don't care about this topic. I actually went to a couple anarchist meetings. They were just college kids trying to pretend to care enough about something so they could get laid. Pretty much all it will amount to here in the US.
 
Capitalism is an inefficient means of distributing innovation and it creates inefficient class structures, but it would have been a workable system before consumer capitalism arrived on the scene as well as globalism. Capitalism works better on smaller scales.

I have seen genuine attempts at micro-communities based on anarchism and they tend to fall prey to instinctual power structures. Even in so-called consensus communities, a small minority always rise to dominance, and then the system gets trashed.

The problem is most of humanity's inability to handle power. Most people have not done the inner work necessary to wield power responsibly, with integrity and strength of character. The people who are the most capable of being leaders and handling power tend to have no interest in power whatsoever.

With humanity's population at the current scale, anarchism would be destructive. The system must be reset for decentralized values to have a natural chance.
 
Northern Light said:
Capitalism is an inefficient means of distributing innovation and it creates inefficient class structures, but it would have been a workable system before consumer capitalism arrived on the scene as well as globalism. Capitalism works better on smaller scales.

I have seen genuine attempts at micro-communities based on anarchism and they tend to fall prey to instinctual power structures. Even in so-called consensus communities, a small minority always rise to dominance, and then the system gets trashed.

The problem is most of humanity's inability to handle power. Most people have not done the inner work necessary to wield power responsibly, with integrity and strength of character. The people who are the most capable of being leaders and handling power tend to have no interest in power whatsoever.

With humanity's population at the current scale, anarchism would be destructive. The system must be reset for decentralized values to have a natural chance.
Click to expand...
Yet, as the Sitrin article explains, so many around the world are already engaged in horizontal practices or living autonomously. Then look at the digital revolution which affects millions and where, as Jeremy Rifkin explains, communication and soon logistical activities might become increasingly peer-to-peer and laterally scaled. Perhaps it is the other way around?
 
poweRob said:
They were just college kids trying to pretend to care enough about something so they could get laid.
Click to expand...

one could say the same about a lot of Sanders rallies :mrgreen:
 
Henrin said:
Not even the point. Government didn't spring up by consent. They sprung up in the beginning from groups conquering each other. Most people have this idea in their head that you avoid warlords by supporting the state, but that position only exposes how little they know of history.
Click to expand...

i suppose that we could return to hunter - gathering tribes, but i'm sort of partial to agriculture / roads / the internet and stuff. and you have to take into account that those tribes sometimes tended to be fairly violent when they ran into each other. so, when given the choice between a state that i'm not exactly doing cartwheels over but still have a vote in or an anarchist pipe dream that could easily end up looking more like The Purge than utopia, yeah, i'll pick the state. so will most others, especially if we're talking about a first world democracy / representative republic.
 
TGN said:
Here's a one page article by Ad Bustersmagazine suggesting that anarchism is a viable alternative to neoliberalism.

Another World is Possible - Adbusters | Journal of the mental environment

The article cites the Spanish Revolution, which had a strong anarchist/syndicalist component in support of its position and even includes quotes from Orwell's Homage to Catalonia, which was his first-hand account of his experience as a member of the POUM militia, which fought alongside anarchist militias during the Spanish Civil War.

Today, anarchists have been involved in alternative globalization protests, hurricane relief after the Katrina and super storm Sandy disasters, formation of the Occupy movement and so on. Historically, they were involved in the labor (where they played an energetic role in winning the 8 hour workday, feminists and anti-nuke movements. Areas such as the Exarchia district in Athens have a strong anarchist presence today, while whole territories such as Chiapas and purportedly Rojava are supposedly partially influenced by anarchist ideas.

Marina Sitrin, in her recent article "The Anarchist Spirit" even notes that many of today's social movements (like the Recuperdad in Argentina) around the world have included horizontal or anarchist-like organizational principles on their own.

https://www.dissentmagazine.org/article/anarchist-spirit-horizontalism

"The Anarchists were still in virtual control of Catalonia and the revolution was still in full swing. To anyone who had been there since the beginning it probably seemed even in December or January that the revolutionary period was ending; but when one came straight from England the aspect of Barcelona was something startling and overwhelming. It was the first time that I had ever been in a town where the working class was in the saddle." George Orwell - Homage to Catalonia

Click to expand...


The science is inconclusive, but it looks as though there could be a sheer endless number of other worlds.
 
Henrin said:
Not even the point. Government didn't spring up by consent. They sprung up in the beginning from groups conquering each other. Most people have this idea in their head that you avoid warlords by supporting the state, but that position only exposes how little they know of history.
Click to expand...

And I had thought that community organization had started as an attempt to stop people stealing each other's women. ;)
 
Helix said:
i suppose that we could return to hunter - gathering tribes, but i'm sort of partial to agriculture / roads / the internet and stuff. and you have to take into account that those tribes sometimes tended to be fairly violent when they ran into each other. so, when given the choice between a state that i'm not exactly doing cartwheels over but still have a vote in or an anarchist pipe dream that could easily end up looking more like The Purge than utopia, yeah, i'll pick the state. so will most others, especially if we're talking about a first world democracy / representative republic.
Click to expand...

Every society will have wars. It's not as if the existence of states have somehow eliminated wars or somehow made them shorter or less bloody.
 
Henrin said:
Every society will have wars. It's not as if the existence of states have somehow eliminated wars or somehow made them shorter or less bloody.
Click to expand...

Another war is inevitable.
 
Henrin said:
Every society will have wars. It's not as if the existence of states have somehow eliminated wars or somehow made them shorter or less bloody.
Click to expand...

i'd rather that the war not happen because i met an opposing tribe while picking berries.
 
TGN said:
The new world in the shell of the old.
Click to expand...

Anarchism is Retarded

Anarchism is a nonsensical and immature political philosophy. To even call it a philosophy is probably being far too generous. In order to mitigate the inevitable bleating of “No True Scotsman” from various unwashed packs of self-styled “anarchist” rabble across the internets, allow me to define my term. When I say “anarchism” here I am talking about the utopian and fantastical ideology promoted by leftist intellectuals such as Noam Chomsky and described in the Anarchist FAQ. So yes, I am talking about your kind of anarchist Mr. Scotsman.

Theory
The theory (if you can call it that) behind anarchism is based on two interlocking principles. The first and most important is that hierarchy is a form of oppression (hint: oppression is bad, mmmkay). The second is that private property is a form of hierarchy. Private property in the anarchist view is the absolute worst form of oppression. It is the social institution that the envious soul of the anarchist rages against most fiercely. Private property is bad because it creates hierarchy in terms of relationships to specific resources. If one person owns something, then another person is necessarily deprived of it. Exclusion of anyone from anything is intolerable.

Property ownership is hierarchical, anti-egalitarian and exploitative (exploitation is also bad, mmmkay). Property owners exploit non-owners by threatening them with starvation if they do not work to make the owners even richer. Hence the familiar blather about wage slavery. The state is set up to forcefully protect the property of this exploiting class. Without the state the institution of property could not be maintained.

To solve the grave social and moral problems of private property and hierarchy anarchists advocate a totally unique and original system of collective property ownership and democratic control of the means of production. It is difficult to see how this differs from classical Marxism, yet anarchists will cry foul if you point this out. They claim that their form of communism is different because it will occur naturally and spontaneously when capitalism falls, and capitalism will necessarily fall when the state collapses. Classical Marxists at least acknowledge that the state is necessary to force people to abide by communist property arrangements on a wide scale.
Click to expand...

The rest of the read is even better.
 
TGN said:
How is this "utopian and fantastical"?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUig0lFHDDw

"If I had understood the situation a bit better I should probably have joined the Anarchists." George Orwell - Collected Essays; Vol 1
Click to expand...

Did it last, is there any example in history of a thriving prosperous example of this form of existence on any real scale?
WHAT??? There isn't?
Gee you'd think human nature might not work with it.. that would... make it a Utopian fantasy land material!!
 
Renae said:
Did it last, is there any example in history of a thriving prosperous example of this form of existence on any real scale?
WHAT??? There isn't?
Gee you'd think human nature might not work with it.. that would... make it a Utopian fantasy land material!!
Click to expand...

In Spain it all started in 1868, long before the Spanish Civil War of 1936-1939. Then there were the cultural underpinnings that preceded that for generations. And if you had bothered to read the second link in the OP you'd know that there are examples of self-management and horizontal organizing globally.

Renae - you said:
is there any example in history of a thriving prosperous example of this form of existence on any real scale?
WHAT??? There isn't?
Click to expand...

Purportedly this has been going on, and still going on, in Rojava:
"Rojava, in northern Syria, a Kurdish region straddling the southern Turkish border, is now a remarkable experiment of Bookchin inspired autonomous democratic confederalism. In the area's major urban areas-Aleppo, Kobane and Qamishli-popular assemblies and secular grassroots councils call the shots.....Put into practice, Kurdish self-government today has three central planks: the establishment of communes, the assurance of equal participation in all areas of decision-making for all faith and ethnic groups, and the strengthening of the position of women. Communes sort out everyday administration, provide electricity provision and infrastructure, advise on nutrition and liaise around ecological concerns. There are communal cooperatives, too, like bakeries and sewing workshops, like agricultural projects. Delegates from village and neighborhood communes form the basis of bigger city councils, and city councils are made up of representatives from all communes. There aren't any law courts either, but 'peace and consensus committees,' which try to resolve legal issues in novel, consensus-finding ways." Out of Shadows by Andy Merrifield

How does that not debunk your notion right there?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom