Banner from Gay Pride Day Yesterday [W: 86]

Josie said:

What side of the issue am I on? What do I believe pertaining to homosexuals?

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I am judging you based on what you have said in this thread. You believe homosexuals are blaming the recent shooting on you, or at least on your ideology. You also think it's hate motivating people to boycott and not spend money at anti-gay business establishments. You feel slighted by some group in society. You feel "hate" and unfairly blamed, otherwise known as persecution.

SheWolf said:

I am judging you based on what you have said in this thread. You believe homosexuals are blaming the recent shooting on you, or at least on your ideology. You also think it's hate motivating people to boycott and not spend money at anti-gay business establishments. You feel slighted by some group in society. You feel "hate" and unfairly blamed, otherwise known as persecution.

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I'm a libertarian when it comes to gay rights, SheWolf. People who destroy small business owners simply because of their beliefs are hateful, yes.

Josie said:

I'm a libertarian when it comes to gay rights, SheWolf. People who destroy small business owners simply because of their beliefs are hateful, yes.

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I actually support gay rights, especially same sex marriage. But, I still agree that we should not destroy the livlihood of people who feel differently than I do.

I do not believe people should be fired for posting anti gay or trans stuff on their Facebook page, nor should their business be fined if they refuse to serve them cake. I do, however, agree that they can be boycotted, picketed and verbally attacked on someone else's Facebook page.

Free speech and freedom of association is a cherished right. We should not treat it lightly.

joG said:

To be honest, I doubt Trump cares much about immigrants and homosexuals. He's a populist. But do you really think his platform is really xenophobic and homophobic? In the stuff I have watched I didn't see him say anything even close to things the more right politicians in Holland, France or Germany might say, though, homosexuals aren't as interesting here. And looking at what the liberals write or say about pro gun freedom advocates or prolifers and persons that don't think the baker should be ruined makes one wonder, if the right guys could out do it.

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I already stated Trump is not a homphobe. Nor does he try channeling the hate from those people who are, at least not yet. That was Ted Cruz's crowd and schtick. Trump just attacks Muslims and Mexicans and Chinese...and, here lately, Jews. It seems.

Josie said:

I'm a libertarian when it comes to gay rights, SheWolf. People who destroy small business owners simply because of their beliefs are hateful, yes.

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We can't force these businesses to serve gay weddings if they don't want to, and if they don't want to, they may lose business. That's the way capitalism works, and it's also the way the constitution works. Under the first amendment, we have the right to protest and boycott.

Is boycotting PP and wanting to shut down PP hateful?

Was the it hateful when American colonies boycotted the British East Indian Company and destroyed their supplies during the Boston Tea Party? Was it hate when Americans boycotted British Companies during the Revolutionary War?

Was the Montgomery Bus Boycott hate? Was any Civil Rights boycott or sit in an act of hate?

Was the whole "freedom fry" situation a hateful act against the French?

Boycotting is not black and white. The world is not that black and white. In general, boycotting is not an act of hate... even if that boycott's ultimate goal is to dismantle an empire. Can some boycotts be about hate, yes... such as the Nazis boycotting Jewish owned stores, but the hate did not simply end at boycotting as evidence by Kristhallnacht and Holocaust. Hate is a lot more complex than boycotting and protesting.

calamity said:

You have never heard a Republican utter an anti-gay or anti-Muslim word? Seriously?

Ted Cruz's Top 10 Anti-Gay Statements - The New Civil Rights Movement

Donald Trump's horrifying words about Muslims (Opinion) - CNN.com

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Sure I have just as I have heard Democrats and Libertarians and Independents say negative things about gays and Muslims and blacks and Christians and Jews etc. etc. etc. Somebody identified as Democrat or Libertarian or Independent or Republican is not all of their respective groups. Most likely they are a tiny portion of it.

Further, I don't accept as valid comments by ANYBODY taken out of their full context and shown as if they were never modified or explained. That goes for Hillary, Obama, Lynch, and Trump and anybody else.

Now tell me how that banner in the OP is not hate speech?

AlbqOwl said:

Sure I have just as I have heard Democrats and Libertarians and Independents say negative things about gays and Muslims and blacks and Christians and Jews etc. etc. etc. Somebody identified as Democrat or Libertarian or Independent or Republican is not all of their respective groups. Most likely they are a tiny portion of it.

Further, I don't accept as valid comments by ANYBODY taken out of their full context and shown as if they were never modified or explained. That goes for Hillary, Obama, Lynch, and Trump and anybody else.

Now tell me how that banner in the OP is not hate speech?

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I think the banner is stupid, but not exactly hate speech.

calamity said:

I think the banner is stupid, but not exactly hate speech.

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Would you think it hate speech if the banner read Gay Hate Speech Kills? Or Muslim Hate Speech Kills? Or Black Lives Matter Hate Speech Kills?

AlbqOwl said:

Would you think it hate speech if the banner read Gay Hate Speech Kills? Or Muslim Hate Speech Kills? Or Black Lives Matter Hate Speech Kills?

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I already stated that the banner should have read "Islamic Hate Kills."

And, no. That would not have been hate speech. It would, however, have been factual speech. The current banner is just stupid speech.

calamity said:

I already stated that the banner should have read "Islamic Hate Kills."

And, no. That would not have been hate speech. It would, however, have been factual speech. The current banner is just stupid speech.

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The point is that any time any group is demonized in hateful terms and imagery, whether it is targeting Republicans or Democrats/liberals or gays or any religious or ethnic/racial group, or Tea Party, special interest group, etc., it introduces not only a huge lie but hate speech into the public discourse. It is hate speech when an entire group is so characterized. Unfortunately, in our bizarre and selective politically correct environment these days, only certain groups are accused of 'hate speech' while everybody else are only excercising their First Amendment rights.

Until we start condemning this kind of hatefulness on the party of EVERYBODY, and not just those deemed politically incorrect, there is no hope of civil discourse or understanding to be had. It feed the 'we are good and you are bad' divisions and exacerbates problems rather than looking for win-win solutions for all.

The gay community should be ashamed and chagrined and be speaking out against that banner en masse. Otherwise they risk setting themselves apart as petty, narrow minded, hateful people. Or the question could be, why should I be sympathetic to their cause when they hold such a low opinion of me?

AlbqOwl said:

The point is that any time any group is demonized in hateful terms and imagery, whether it is targeting Republicans or Democrats/liberals or gays or any religious or ethnic/racial group, or Tea Party, special interest group, etc., it introduces not only a huge lie but hate speech into the public discourse. It is hate speech when an entire group is so characterized. Unfortunately, in our bizarre and selective politically correct environment these days, only certain groups are accused of 'hate speech' while everybody else are only excercising their First Amendment rights.

Until we start condemning this kind of hatefulness on the party of EVERYBODY, and not just those deemed politically incorrect, there is no hope of civil discourse or understanding to be had. It feed the 'we are good and you are bad' divisions and exacerbates problems rather than looking for win-win solutions for all.

The gay community should be ashamed and chagrined and be speaking out against that banner en masse. Otherwise they risk setting themselves apart as petty, narrow minded, hateful people. Or the question could be, why should I be sympathetic to their cause when they hold such a low opinion of me?

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I get what you are saying. But, I still think a banner reading "Islamic Hate Kills" would be correct, while the one reading "Republican Hate Kills" is just stupid. Neither one is hate speech. It just accurately describes the fact that hate kills.

The problem is Republican hate has not killed anyone, at least not lately. But, Islamic hate kills often. And, it was Islamic hate that killed those young men and women at the gay club last week, not Republican hate.

calamity said:

I get what you are saying. But, I still think a banner reading "Islamic Hate Kills" would be correct, while the one reading "Republican Hate Kills" is just stupid. Neither one is hate speech. It just accurately describes the fact that hate kills.

The problem is Republican hate has not killed anyone, at least not lately. But, Islamic hate kills often. And, it was Islamic hate that killed those young men and women at the gay club last week, not Republican hate.

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But even Islamic hate doesn't kill. It doesn't hurt anybody but those who hate. It is people ACTING on the hate who kill.

AlbqOwl said:

But even Islamic hate doesn't kill. It doesn't hurt anybody but those who hate. It is people ACTING on the hate who kill.

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Of course. That's why hate is not a crime, by itself. It can, however, be a aggravating factor.

calamity said:

Of course. That's why hate is not a crime, by itself. It can, however, be a aggravating factor.

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But while I believe hate is a destructive attribute for anybody, I do believe we have an unalienable and Constitutional right to hate. But let's call it what it is. That banner is hate speech. It singles out a specific group of people in a very destructive way. It might give the mentally disturbed a rationale to target Republicans for violence, if we believe that calling Islamic extremists what they are targets Muslims for violence or objecting to Mexicans illegally crossing our border makes Mexicans a target for violence. If we use that kind of thinking, nobody can be criticized for anything. But criticism of the sort in that banner does divide us and stirs up the immature and dishonest and ignorant no matter what group is printed on it.

And yes hate certainly is a factor when people do violence to other people and the mentally disturbed might use it as a catalyst to do violence. But so does envy, perceived injustice, motives of vengeance, resentment, frustration, disappointment, anger, conditioning to insensitivity and glamorizing violence in violent video games, television, movies, etc.

All people should teach their children to have courage and be kind. That should be the mantra of every group, both those in power and those wanting power. I would like to restore a sense of working out problems instead of trying to bludgeon those we disapprove of with words or additional laws, etc.

AlbqOwl said:

But while I believe hate is a destructive attribute for anybody, I do believe we have an unalienable and Constitutional right to hate. But let's call it what it is. That banner is hate speech. It singles out a specific group of people in a very destructive way. It might give the mentally disturbed a rationale to target Republicans for violence, if we believe that calling Islamic extremists what they are targets Muslims for violence or objecting to Mexicans illegally crossing our border makes Mexicans a target for violence. If we use that kind of thinking, nobody can be criticized for anything. But criticism of the sort in that banner does divide us and stirs up the immature and dishonest and ignorant no matter what group is printed on it.

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Sure. If someone argues that we cannot call out Islamic Hate because it's hate speech, then they should also decry this banner as hate speech. No argument on that.

And yes hate certainly is a factor when people do violence to other people and the mentally disturbed might use it as a catalyst to do violence. But so does envy, perceived injustice, motives of vengeance, resentment, frustration, disappointment, anger, conditioning to insensitivity and glamorizing violence in violent video games, television, movies, etc.

All people should teach their children to have courage and be kind. That should be the mantra of every group, both those in power and those wanting power.

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My thinking on hate crimes is as follows. If someone commits a crime due to their hatred for the group assailed, it's an aggravating circumstance which should be punished more harshly than crimes against people for other reasons. I guess, I feel that way about any and all ideologically motivated attacks. Mostly because I believe that kind of motivator is less correctable and more likely to result in the same person committing additional crimes of a similar nature in the future.

Zealots who break the law in effort to promote their zealotry need to be slapped down. Hard.

calamity said:

Sure. If someone argues that we cannot call out Islamic Hate because it's hate speech, then they should also decry this banner as hate speech. No argument on that.

My thinking on hate crimes is as follows. If someone commits a crime due to their hatred for the group assailed, it's an aggravating circumstance which should be punished more harshly than crimes against people for other reasons. I guess, I feel that way about any and all ideologically motivated attacks. Mostly because I believe that kind of motivator is less correctable and more likely to result in the same person committing additional crimes of a similar nature in the future.

Zealots who break the law in effort to promote their zealotry need to be slapped down. Hard.

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I can appreciate your take on that, but I don't subscribe to the concept that hate crime is somehow worse than any other crime. The heinous act of some sociopath who just likes to kill and doesn't give a flip who he hurts in the process is just as bad as the guy motivated to hate somebody for whatever reason. And the victim is just as dead and/or just as violated and/or harmed despite the person's motive. And the concept of hate crime is so subjective as to what is and is not motivated by hate, I do not believe any judge or jury has powers to look into another's heart to see what is truly there. I don't see an assault on or a murder of a person of THAT race or ethnic group or special interest group as any worse or worthy of being classified as a hate crime as is the assault on or murder of somebody who isn't in a protected class. One life should not be counted as more or less valuable than any other life.

So I am all for designating proper consequences for the commission of a crime regardless of who the crime is committed against or who committed the crime.

AlbqOwl said:

I can appreciate your take on that, but I don't subscribe to the concept that hate crime is somehow worse than any other crime. The heinous act of some sociopath who just likes to kill and doesn't give a flip who he hurts in the process is just as bad as the guy motivated to hate somebody for whatever reason. And the victim is just as dead and/or just as violated and/or harmed despite the person's motive. And the concept of hate crime is so subjective as to what is and is not motivated by hate, I do not believe any judge or jury has powers to look into another's heart to see what is truly there. I don't see an assault on or a murder of a person of THAT race or ethnic group or special interest group as any worse or worthy of being classified as a hate crime as is the assault on or murder of somebody who isn't in a protected class. One life should not be counted as more or less valuable than any other life.

So I am all for designating proper consequences for the commission of a crime regardless of who the crime is committed against or who committed the crime.

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Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm quite alright with putting sociopathic serial killers to death. Rapists who kidnap and use sadistic violence on their victims too, IMO.

But, ideologically motivated crimes run the risk of breaking down society. Would not a religious or political zealot who plants a bomb in Central Park be more dangerous to society than some dumb ass, nut who plants a booby trapped M-80? At the very least, the former may develop a following or be part of one. Whereas the latter is just a nut being a dumb ass.

VanceMack said:

Nah...I'm 'obsessed' with helping you and others realize just how stupid you are if you believe Republicans hate gays and no democrats were are and always will be opposed to gay marriage. Nothing more. I guess I should rephrase that. I'm not obsessed with helping you see that. Hell...you know it. I'm not even obsessed with making you admit it. Point of fact, this is playing out like every other gay rights thread. 5 or 6 of you feel the need to line up and press the same stupid ****ing argument even though its been answered to the 5-6 of you previously. You SEE other people making the same stupid argument you want to make but its not enough to see that exchange going on...you have to jump in and take YOUR ridiculous swing at the plate and make the same stupid ****ing argument. I wont be surprised if after this has finally gotten boring enough for it to die someone else will come along and once again make the same stupid arguments you and others have made.

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Well, other than exercise your keyboard a little, you accomplished nothing with that post. You're not clear about which argument you think is so over used. Furthermore you didn't address any part of my post or answer to any of my points, you just declared it to be the same argument that always gets used. Are you actually claiming here that the platform of the republican party, if it actively desires to mitigate the newly won marriage rights for gay people, is not hateful? Who cares what other republicans you've spoken to have not said about gay people. If you're hanging out with morons and the book of moron tells you that gay people are an affront to your god, what is there to say? God hath spoken, right?


You seem upset that you can't blame liberals for changing. You're so locked in to conservative thinking that you imagine it's bad to change your mind and you won't admit it's not. If not for liberal people bravely changing their minds about traditional hatred, our nation would still be burning witches. We would still have slavery. This is not a tired argument I'm making here, I'm reminding you of the truth. No wonder it gets repeated so much. Now, why are you in denial about it?

calamity said:

Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm quite alright with putting sociopathic serial killers to death. Rapists who kidnap and use sadistic violence on their victims too, IMO.

But, ideologically motivated crimes run the risk of breaking down society. Would not a religious or political zealot who plants a bomb in Central Park be more dangerous to society than some dumb ass, nut who plants a booby trapped M-80? At the very least, the former may develop a following or be part of one. Whereas the latter is just a nut being a dumb ass.

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Many things run the risk of breaking down society. But ultimately, if the person who kills me does so because of who or what I am or he was just looking for somebody to kill that day, the net result is the same. There is still a dangerous killer out there and I am just as dead. Hate crimes, IMO, are a politically correctness motivated tool to punish certain groups and favor others. But all crime is hate crime. All who commit crime disregard the worth and feelings and well being of those they commit crimes against. And we should not put prosecutors and judges and juries in the position of having to make a psychological determination of whether a crime was committed out of the kind of hate that justifies a 'hate crime'.

AlbqOwl said:

Many things run the risk of breaking down society. But ultimately, if the person who kills me does so because of who or what I am or he was just looking for somebody to kill that day, the net result is the same. There is still a dangerous killer out there and I am just as dead. Hate crimes, IMO, are a politically correctness motivated tool to punish certain groups and favor others. But all crime is hate crime. All who commit crime disregard the worth and feelings and well being of those they commit crimes against. And we should not put prosecutors and judges and juries in the position of having to make a psychological determination of whether a crime was committed out of the kind of hate that justifies a 'hate crime'.

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From what I read, hate crimes are like a contagion. If not nipped in the bud, they can spread like a wildfire. I'm OK with clamping down hard on ideologically motivated crimes.

D_NATURED said:

Well, other than exercise your keyboard a little, you accomplished nothing with that post. You're not clear about which argument you think is so over used. Furthermore you didn't address any part of my post or answer to any of my points, you just declared it to be the same argument that always gets used. Are you actually claiming here that the platform of the republican party, if it actively desires to mitigate the newly won marriage rights for gay people, is not hateful? Who cares what other republicans you've spoken to have not said about gay people. If you're hanging out with morons and the book of moron tells you that gay people are an affront to your god, what is there to say? God hath spoken, right?


You seem upset that you can't blame liberals for changing. You're so locked in to conservative thinking that you imagine it's bad to change your mind and you won't admit it's not. If not for liberal people bravely changing their minds about traditional hatred, our nation would still be burning witches. We would still have slavery. This is not a tired argument I'm making here, I'm reminding you of the truth. No wonder it gets repeated so much. Now, why are you in denial about it?

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Why are you in denial that many democrats were and are still opposed to gay marriage? Do you support the intent of the banner?

calamity said:

From what I read, hate crimes are like a contagion. If not nipped in the bud, they can spread like a wildfire. I'm OK with clamping down hard on ideologically motivated crimes.

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Well we can amicably agree to disagree on that one. As we've gone through this discussion I think we probably agree on more points than we disagree.

AlbqOwl said:

Well we can amicably agree to disagree on that one. As we've gone through this discussion I think we probably agree on more points than we disagree.

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Sure. That's common here. People agree on the bigger picture, squabble over a few details. It kind of helps a person think...refine one's thoughts a bit.

As I defended my position to prosecute ideological crimes, I ran into an obvious obstacle. Where do we draw the line? And, maybe more importantly, how do we keep it consistent? As we already see, some hate crimes are prosecuted more vigorously than others.