Islamic Misogyny Shows It's Face Again

DA60 said:

It's little to do with religion.

110 years ago, it was legal in Canada for men to beat their wives...just don't seriously injure her. That was nothing to do with religion.

It's called evolution.

Pakistan is evolving slower then the West...probably due to poverty, colonialism, massive governmental corruption and a few other reasons.

Religion reflects a society, it does not form a society. It is the excuse, not the cause.


Personally, I think all major religions are a complete and total waste of time.

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So, "The Council of Islamic Ideology" has little to do with religion? :roll:

VanceMack said:

Its rather comical watching liberals rush in to defend Muslims. They cant help themselves. Its moral imperitive in response not to Muslims but to conservative opposition to Muslim extremism. Meamnwhile...in a CNN poll of MAINSTREAM Muslims...
London (CNN)
More than half of British Muslims (52%) think homosexuality should not be legal, and nearly half (47%) think it is not appropriate for gay people to teach in schools.

The findings come from face-to-face interviews with 1,081 British Muslims by the polling agency ICM for a television program, "What British Muslims Really Think." The program is scheduled to air Wednesday on Britain's Channel 4.

The survey also found British Muslims more likely than the general population to sympathize with terrorism "as a form of political protest," although support was very low -- 4% of Muslims said they sympathized, compared with 1% of the general public.
The Muslims interviewed were also more likely to support the ISIS objective of creating an Islamic state, regardless of the methods involved, with 7% expressing support, compared with 2% of the general public.

Muslims were also much more likely to say Jewish people had too much power in Britain (35% agreed, compared with 9% of the general population
A significant percentage believe it was acceptable for Muslim men to have more than one wife (31% of Muslims agreed versus 9% of the public); and that a woman should always obey her husband (39% of Muslims agreed, compared with 5% of the public).

Still.......

Must...defend...Islam....

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Very predictable. I knew exactly which direction this thread was headed even before I posted it.

Chomsky said:

Your point about the three major Abraham religions is a good one.

I would also argue that Islam has had less time to evolve, and therefore is behind it's Judaic & Christian siblings. And as pointed-out in posts above, it's developing in societies less evolved in terms of women's rights as well.

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No matter how many times I hear the evolution argument, I'm still compelled to discard it. Neither Judaism nor Christianity evolved; they're simply not practiced as widely as Islam. The core creed of both religions remains unchanged, and it can be observed in communities that practice it.

Gaztopian said:

I can't possibly comprehend why a Muslim would want to immigrate to a country that harbors such a virulent animus towards his demographic. At this rate I'll start to feel not sympathy, but contempt towards American Muslims.

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They can pray to anyone they want, but they need to leave their misogyny, homophobia and sympathy for terrorists behind. In fact, I'll even agree that they can believe whatever the hell they want about the inferiority of women, the sins of homos, and their love for suicide bombers, but they can't practice any of it.

So, no beating women or forcing them to have genital mutilation, no beating your kid if he happens to be gay and no writing checks to your favorite ISIS support group. In short, assimilate or get the **** out.

calamity said:

They can pray to anyone they want, but they need to leave their misogyny, homophobia and sympathy for terrorists behind. In fact, I'll even agree that they can believe whatever the hell they want about the inferiority of women, the sins of homos, and their love for suicide bombers, but they can't practice any of it.

So, no beating women or forcing them to have genital mutilation, no beating your kid if he happens to be gay and no writing checks to your favorite ISIS support group.

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And you've seen Muslim Americans doing these things?

Most importantly, I thank you for making my case in the other post in this topic. Judging from your posts in Sex and Sexuality, you're anything but a pro-homosexuality kind of guy, yet here you are, maligning Muslims for their homophobia. Infinitely amusing indeed.

Gaztopian said:

Awww this is cute. The topic quickly devolved into how superior and refined Christianity is compared to Islam. I hate to burst your bubble guys, but the three Abrahamic religions - Judaism, Christianity, and Islam - share so much in common. The only difference here is that of the three religions, Christianity is the least practiced, though that's quickly changing with the conservative/evangelical counterrevolution in the U.S and, to a lesser degree, in Europe. I urge concerned Americans who seem too aghast by what Pakistanis supposedly do to check the Haredi community in Brooklyn, or the Quiverfull movement in various parts of the U.S or any other evangelical community in the country for that matter.

Whoever instilled this obsession with Islam and Muslims in the minds of Americans did the country the greatest disservice since its inception. The country has more than its share of social and cultural woes, yet it's too preoccupied to deal with them - how could it when it's fixated on Muslims.

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Ah, the old stalwart, "Christians and Jews do it too" argument. Gotta love it when that comes up.

Have Christians flown any airplanes into buildings lately? How about Jews, any of them strapping bombs to themselves and blowing up a market?

Gaztopian said:

No matter how many times I hear the evolution argument, I'm still compelled to discard it. Neither Judaism nor Christianity evolved; they're simply not practiced as widely as Islam. The core creed of both religions remains unchanged, and it can be observed in communities that practice it.

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Actually, I believe both evolution & core principles come to bear.

But if we need to see clear examples of the evolution of Christianity:

"When was the last time you've heard of a good Church led crusade, or a modern day Catholic Spanish Inquisition?"

Gaztopian said:

And you've seen Muslim Americans doing these things?

Most importantly, I thank you for making my case in the other post in this topic. Judging from your posts in Sex and Sexuality, you're anything but a pro-homosexuality kind of guy, yet here you are, maligning Muslims for their homophobia. Infinitely amusing indeed.

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I have nothing against gays being gay. I oppose the gay agenda and its attempt to brainwash everyone into accepting it as normal. There's a difference.

One involves people being free to have sex with and love whomever they choose. That I support. The other involves forcing the rest of the population to ignore the realities of that lifestyle and brush aside all the pitfalls. It's a little different but not diametrically opposite to hating the KKK but understanding that they have a right to have a parade without being assaulted.

Chomsky said:

I was not aware of this, and I'm not going to research it.

But your 'evolution' point is a good one, considering during that time in the U.S. women could not vote, children were a legal labor source, and many alive then had been formerly legally kept slaves!

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To be fair, I only heard that on a respected, Canadian documentary some years ago.

But there seems to be much literature stating that beating wives was legal until about 100 years ago.

'Well actually, until recently in history, women were considered the property of man. They belonged to their fathers until marriage, and then became the property of their husbands. Man had the right to treat his property as he wished.

In British common law, husbands were authorized to "chastise" their wives with "any reasonable instrument". Later the law was modified so that men could beat their wives so long as the weapon was no thicker than a man's thumb which is how the phrase "rule of thumb", came into use.'

A Crime

calamity said:

Ah, the old stalwart, "Christians and Jews do it too" argument. Gotta love it when that comes up.

Have Christians flown any airplanes into buildings lately? How about Jews, any of them strapping bombs to themselves and blowing up a market?

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I was actually responding to a trend that already took hold of the topic.

No, Christians haven't flown airplanes into building lately, but they did invade a country and reduced it to rubble just to precipitate the end of time and the Second Coming. As for Jews, they're too busy carpet-bombing civilians and brutalizing an entire people because promised land.

I can see you're upset the topic hasn't borne its intended fruits; too bad, so sad.

calamity said:

So, "The Council of Islamic Ideology" has little to do with religion? :roll:

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No (you missed my point)...the fact that Pakistan is so backwards is not due to religion but lack of evolution.

Religion is just the outlet/excuse many use to carry out their 'de-evolved ways'.

calamity said:

I have nothing against gays being gay. I oppose the gay agenda and its attempt to brainwash everyone into accepting it as normal. There's a difference.

One involves people being free to have sex with and love whomever they choose. That I support. The other involves forcing the rest of the population to ignore the realities of that lifestyle and brush aside all the pitfalls.

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That's just a euphemism for "I don't have the balls to come forward and avow my repudiation of homosexuality". If you think there's nothing wrong with being gay, you shouldn't have a problem with the "gay agenda". In fact, your use of the term speaks volumes about your actual views on the subject.

Chomsky said:

Actually, I believe both evolution & core principles come to bear.

But if we need to see clear examples of the evolution of Christianity:

"When was the last time you've heard of a good Church led crusade, or a modern day Catholic Spanish Inquisition?"

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A truly evolved society would have no religion. But we are at least a century away from that.

Chomsky said:

Actually, I believe both evolution & core principles come to bear.

But if we need to see clear examples of the evolution of Christianity:

"When was the last time you've heard of a good Church led crusade, or a modern day Catholic Spanish Inquisition?"

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It's been a while, but it's only been a few years since a Jesus-loving president declared the war on terror a crusade and invaded a country and reduced it to rubble in the name of precipitating the end of time and the Second Coming.

I'm actually surprised you'd go that way, as American politics, all the way to the highest levels, is laden with theology.

Chomsky said:

"The U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops said in 2002, "As pastors of the Catholic Church in the United States, we state as clearly and strongly as we can that violence against women, inside or outside the home, is never justified."[2]"

Wikipedia; Christianity and Domestic Violence

Would you please be good enough to post your evidence to the contrary, as well?

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Is it your interpretation of that document that it condemns the lawful practice of a father corporally punishing his daughters?

I am making a negative claim and thus you have the burden of proof.

Gaztopian said:

That's just a euphemism for "I don't have the balls to come forward and avow my repudiation of homosexuality". If you think there's nothing wrong with being gay, you shouldn't have a problem with the "gay agenda". In fact, your use of the term speaks volumes about your actual views on the subject.

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I guess your brain can't handle the idea of someone accepting gays for who they are while also insisting they not interfere with our laws and education system. It's like how I, as an atheist, can despise religious intrusion in our society's laws and schools but have no problem with people talking to their hands and going to church on Sundays.

What people do amongst themselves and what they demand others do are separate issues. If a guy wants to dress as a girl, more power to him. If he demands that women to let him into their bathroom, not so much.

Liberals, specially, seem to have a hard time with this stuff. They love forcing their views on others. In that, they have much in common wit Islam. No wonder they are sewn together at the hip.

calamity said:

I guess your brain can't handle the difference between accepting gays for who they are while insisting they not interfere with our laws and education system. It's like how I, as an atheist, can despise religious intrusion in our society's laws and schools but have no problem with people talking to their hands and going to church on Sundays.

What people do amongst themselves and what they demand others do are separate issues. If a guy wants to dress as a girl, more power to him. If he demands that women to let him into their bathroom, not so much.

Liberals much have a hard time with this stuff.

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If you accept gays for who they are, why would you be opposed to them spreading their views?

Gaztopian said:

If you accept gays for who they are, why would you be opposed to them spreading their views?

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Same reason I don't like Christians "spreading their views." It's not that I would try to stop them from speaking or selling their BS, but I certainly will stop listening and will refuse to buy what they are selling.

Paleocon said:

Is it your interpretation of that document that it condemns the lawful practice of a father corporally punishing his daughters?

I am making a negative claim and thus you have the burden of proof.

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You provide no evidence, nor do you accept other's proof of evidence, nor do you supply anything of substance upon your behalf, accept your wild-arsed assertions (and circular logic).

Virtually any debate we have turns into you digressing into logical & philosophical circles, due to your inability to present evidence on your own behalf.

This is the second time in a month where you've made outlandish claims lacking in evidence, then not accepted my evidence while demanding it is I that must produce even more evidence! To support your claim! :doh

So unless you've got some proof to back-up your claims, I call it B.S., and you can do with that whatever you see fit. You're not worth the effort, and I see nothing to gain here.

Chomsky said:

You provide no evidence, nor do you accept other's proof of evidence, nor do you supply anything of substance upon your behalf, accept your wild-arsed assertions (and circular logic).

Virtually any debate we have turns into you digressing into logical & philosophical circles, due to your inability to present evidence on your own behalf.

This is the second time in a month where you've made outlandish claims lacking in evidence, then not accepted my evidence while demanding it is I that must produce even more evidence! To support your claim! :doh

So unless you've got some proof to back-up your claims, I call it B.S., and you can do with that whatever you see fit. You're not worth the effort, and I see nothing to gain here.

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It was a very simple question. Yes or no?

calamity said:

A truly evolved society would have no religion. But we are at least a century away from that.

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I believe that's a matter of opinion, and I'll respect yours.

I do think I can see where you're coming from with this.

I do think the U.S. Constitution got it reasonably close enough:

"Respect for the right to practice any and all religions equally, but support for none".

Gaztopian said:

It's been a while, but it's only been a few years since a Jesus-loving president declared the war on terror a crusade and invaded a country and reduced it to rubble in the name of precipitating the end of time and the Second Coming.

I'm actually surprised you'd go that way, as American politics, all the way to the highest levels, is laden with theology.

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I see you're attempting to couch the Iraq Wars as a crusades, but it's a state action, and it's Christian influence is negligible. There was no call to war from the Pope nor from Jewish quarters either. Nor was their an attempt to establish Christianity as a state religion. In short, it was no crusade, and there even was the participation of Islamic nations.

DA60 said:

It's little to do with religion.

110 years ago, it was legal in Canada for men to beat their wives...just don't seriously injure her. That was nothing to do with religion.

It's called evolution.

Pakistan is evolving slower then the West...probably due to poverty, colonialism, massive governmental corruption and a few other reasons.

Religion reflects a society, it does not form a society. It is the excuse, not the cause.


Personally, I think all major religions are a complete and total waste of time.

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Oh cmon, this is complete and utter bull****. Religion plays a huge role in the lives of people in Pakistan. Religion rules much of their way of thinking. Religion is what is keeping them from evolving more quickly into a modern society.

Paleocon said:

I'm not skewing anything. What I originally asserted is that the Church does not condemn such.

If you have proof to the contrary, post it.

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If you state something is right because the bible didn't specifically state it, then with parallel logic anything can be right if it is explicitly not stated in The Bible.

Chomsky said:

I see you're attempting to couch the Iraq Wars as a crusades, but it's a state action, and it's Christian influence is negligible. There was no call to war from the Pope nor from Jewish quarters either. Nor was their an attempt to establish Christianity as a state religion. In short, it was no crusade, and there even was the participation of Islamic nations.

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Geopolitical calculations - or more aptly miscalculations, corporate interest, and theological reasoning were behind the Iraq war. That they meshed well together shouldn't bewitch us and blur their unique contributions. A large portion of republicans and conservatives believe that mass killing or displacement of Muslims in the Middle East will pave the way for a greater Israel and expedite the Second Coming, an ideology the influence of which can be seen in the billions of military aid the U.S bestows unconditionally upon Israel annually, the obsession the country has with Judaism and Israeli supremacy, and the millions upon millions of tax-exempt funding that Americans funnel to Israel to finance belligerence and land theft in contravention not only of international law, but of human decency. The Bush administrations dressed the war on terror and the Iraq war as an epical and final theological contest, and they were laden with theological proclamations that went all the way to Bush, the president; Cheney, the VP; Colin Paul, the secretary of state; and Robert Mueller, the director of the FBI. Bush also invited Netenyahu, the head of a foreign government, to sell congress on the Iraq war.

Ignoring something or turning a blind eye to it doesn't make it go away; it only gives it the space to fester and metastasize. For the past two decades, Americans had the misfortune of being taught to readily feel good about themselves by patronizing others and highlighting their imperfections. In the meantime, the country's own imperfections proliferated - no wonder the country remains consternated by Trump and the hounds he unleashed. Unless the U.S comes to term with home-bred terrorism and right-wing extremism, it'll find itself in a dark, dark place sooner than anybody thinks.