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Where does the fear of the "national debt" come from?

Fair enough, but I don't think that really answers the question/objection. If you borrow a trillion dollars in 2017 and that money is sensibly invested in the economy leading to growth which counterbalances any inflationary effect, fair enough; but then if you keep borrowing rather than paying off the debt, it might be many years later before that balance is wholly returned to private creditors. So the initial economic growth is no longer relevant.

Assuming there's always willing creditors, you could keep on taking out new loans indefinitely (which is the problem of points 1 and 2, which are essentially the same objection in hindsight).

Or, to pay off the debt, you've either saddled the country of future decades with a vast burden which they didn't ask for and potentially haven't benefitted from; or else will need to print masses of new money which will cause a lot of inflation. If one or the other is managed so that it's done over a long period of time it might not be a big deal: But obviously the bigger the debt, the harder that will be do to.

You are forgetting that GDP and population growth along with healthy inflation will minimize the bad effects of long term debt. That's why deficits as a % of GDP are far more accurate than the actual numbers. We never paid off the WWII debt and it is not a problem now and even seems minuscule now.
 
Huh? We could double social security anytime we want. That's just a fact. Should we? That's another debate.

It certainly isn't the way i would use the interest now paid on the debt, if there were no debt. Just wanted to remind of one of the drags on optimal allocation the debt means.
 
You are forgetting that GDP and population growth along with healthy inflation will minimize the bad effects of long term debt. That's why deficits as a % of GDP are far more accurate than the actual numbers. We never paid off the WWII debt and it is not a problem now and even seems minuscule now.

If it remains long-term unpaid debt, perhaps. But in the meantime the country is still paying interest on that debt, and the bigger the debt the greater the interest. Absentglare's source suggests that for some unstated reason creditors are currently willing to accept a net loss on loans to the US government - interest rates on one to five year bonds being lower than inflation. That frankly sounds more than a little dubious to me, and since interest rates on ten or twenty year bonds are higher than inflation (assuming I've understood what I'm seeing correctly) my gut feeling would be that US debts incurred/renewed in the past couple of years must have mostly been at those rates. But even if I'm way off base, odds are the lower-than-inflation rates at present will not continue: And based on some very rough estimates in post #23 of interest rates averaging 2-3% higher than inflation in 1990-2007, the net cost of current US debt interest payments (excluding intra-governmental debt) might plausibly be estimated at $260-420 billion dollars per year in the next decade.

How can that not be considered a bad thing? It may be a necessary expense, in circumstances such as following the recession, but surely in the long term reducing the burden of interest payments is a good reason to aim for lower debt in itself?

But the bit you quoted was about the hypothetical scenario in which the debt must be paid: Perhaps the interest rates expected by creditors are too high, or whatever. The total value of US dollars in regular circulation seems to be somewhere in the order of $10 trillion. More than half of the >$13 trillion of public US government debt is owed to domestic investors. So if over a relatively short period of time most of that debt was called in or unable to be re-borrowed, and assuming that it was not covered by tax hikes and spending cuts but instead by simply printing more money, wouldn't having 50+% more US dollars in circulation be followed by 50+% inflation in short order?

So a large debt seems to mean either:
> An annual burden of interest payments, transferring public wealth into the private/foreign sectors, if it's not paid off
> Big tax hikes/spending cuts for the country in whatever unfortunate decade it has to be paid
> Excessive inflation for the country in whatever unfortunate decade it has to be paid

The first may well be the most benign option, but I still can't see how it can be considered a good thing - it'd be a necessary expense at best. But like I say, I'm all but economically illiterate, so perhaps I've missed something here.
 
Would you have your own printing press too like the US,. Govt. has? Because if you did the walls couldn't come down.

Right.

That's why the price of everything is unchanged from the price paid in 1965.

Like the Ford Mustang for instance. Just under $2500 base price in 1965 and in 2015, just under $25,000. Well, I suppose only a 10 fold increase is not a big deal. That Printing Press is a boon to Americans.

If the USA was only spending as much today as it spent in 2008, the Federal Receipts would have produced a surplus in 2014.

I'm not an expert on how to run a country.

I wish that the people who claim to have this expertise actually had it.

Comparing the price of the 2015 Ford Mustang and the 1965 edition - Fortune
 
Right.

That's why the price of everything is unchanged from the price paid in 1965.

Like the Ford Mustang for instance. Just under $2500 base price in 1965 and in 2015, just under $25,000. Well, I suppose only a 10 fold increase is not a big deal. That Printing Press is a boon to Americans.

If the USA was only spending as much today as it spent in 2008, the Federal Receipts would have produced a surplus in 2014.

I'm not an expert on how to run a country.

I wish that the people who claim to have this expertise actually had it.

Comparing the price of the 2015 Ford Mustang and the 1965 edition - Fortune

Inflation is a good thing because it encourages spending and investment not to mention reducing the impact of long term debt. As long as wages keep pace there is nothing bad about moderate inflation.
 
If it remains long-term unpaid debt, perhaps. But in the meantime the country is still paying interest on that debt, and the bigger the debt the greater the interest. Absentglare's source suggests that for some unstated reason creditors are currently willing to accept a net loss on loans to the US government - interest rates on one to five year bonds being lower than inflation. That frankly sounds more than a little dubious to me, and since interest rates on ten or twenty year bonds are higher than inflation (assuming I've understood what I'm seeing correctly) my gut feeling would be that US debts incurred/renewed in the past couple of years must have mostly been at those rates. But even if I'm way off base, odds are the lower-than-inflation rates at present will not continue: And based on some very rough estimates in post #23 of interest rates averaging 2-3% higher than inflation in 1990-2007, the net cost of current US debt interest payments (excluding intra-governmental debt) might plausibly be estimated at $260-420 billion dollars per year in the next decade.

How can that not be considered a bad thing? It may be a necessary expense, in circumstances such as following the recession, but surely in the long term reducing the burden of interest payments is a good reason to aim for lower debt in itself?

But the bit you quoted was about the hypothetical scenario in which the debt must be paid: Perhaps the interest rates expected by creditors are too high, or whatever. The total value of US dollars in regular circulation seems to be somewhere in the order of $10 trillion. More than half of the >$13 trillion of public US government debt is owed to domestic investors. So if over a relatively short period of time most of that debt was called in or unable to be re-borrowed, and assuming that it was not covered by tax hikes and spending cuts but instead by simply printing more money, wouldn't having 50+% more US dollars in circulation be followed by 50+% inflation in short order?

So a large debt seems to mean either:
> An annual burden of interest payments, transferring public wealth into the private/foreign sectors, if it's not paid off
> Big tax hikes/spending cuts for the country in whatever unfortunate decade it has to be paid
> Excessive inflation for the country in whatever unfortunate decade it has to be paid

The first may well be the most benign option, but I still can't see how it can be considered a good thing - it'd be a necessary expense at best. But like I say, I'm all but economically illiterate, so perhaps I've missed something here.

There is no reason to think we will ever pay off our debt but if you insist it be done. The only way would be a wealth tax and that is not likely to happen. Luckily we don't ever need to pay it off. The U.S has virtually never been debt free.

There's only one thing you need to know about the government. It's not a household. The government, unlike us, doesn't need to pay back its debts before it dies, because it doesn't die (barring secession or a sneak attack from across the world's longest unprotected border -- a most unworthwhile initiative). In other words, the government can just roll over its debts in perpetuity. That's the point Michael Kinsley misses when he says we "can't borrow forever," in an otherwise fine column trying to convince unemployment and deficit hawks that they actually agree on a "barbell" approach -- stimulus now, austerity later -- to fiscal policy. We can, and in fact have, borrowed forever. And that doesn't mean our debt burden will go up forever either. As you can see in the chart below, the government dramatically decreased its debt-to-GDP ratio in the three decades following World War II, despite mostly running deficits during the time.
NeverPayBackDebt2-thumb-615x408-112471.png


Why the U.S. Government Never, Ever Has to Pay Back All Its Debt - The Atlantic
 
Inflation is a good thing because it encourages spending and investment not to mention reducing the impact of long term debt. As long as wages keep pace there is nothing bad about moderate inflation.

Well, it's more a measure of the value of currency and, as such is just a thing, neither good nor bad.

Moderate inflation is what it is. Deflation seems to present its own set of issues as well.

Is there a recognized "sweet spot" for the right amount of inflation?
 
Well, it's more a measure of the value of currency and, as such is just a thing, neither good nor bad.

Moderate inflation is what it is. Deflation seems to present its own set of issues as well.

Is there a recognized "sweet spot" for the right amount of inflation?

The Feds target inflation rate is 2%. It is too close to deflation if less then that. Deflation is a disaster for an economy.
 
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