• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Army to commission first 22 female officers into ground combat units

Mithrae said:
If opening combat roles to applications by females is inevitable - which it probably is - then the #1 dumbest thing any concerned person could do is to keep screaming "Women can't do this, women can't do this." 100% guaranteed to make thousands of people determined to ensure that women DO do it, qualified or not.

Much smarter to pull in favour of equal rights and non-discrimination; to demand the same standard of outcome for female applicants. Then if the masculininazis are correct, none will get through and everyone's happy.
Click to expand...

Spoken like someone that hasn't had to drag a sobbing Tech sergeant blowing snot bubbles out of a live fire exercise because she couldn't open an equipment box.

I think you missed the the point of the comment cited. No one was 'telling' them they can't do it. They put it on display.
 
VanceMack said:
Spoken like someone that hasn't had to drag a sobbing Tech sergeant blowing snot bubbles out of a live fire exercise because she couldn't open an equipment box.

I think you missed the the point of the comment cited. No one was 'telling' them they can't do it. They put it on display.
Click to expand...

Funnily enough no, I haven't had to do that. I suppose you're going to claim that you have? :lol: Have you also had a mission and your squad's lives jeopardized by a big macho idiot charging headfirst into danger? There are just as many useless men as there are women. That's why training exists, and that's why a smart person would push in favour of equally high outcomes required for any person capable of doing the job.
 
Mithrae said:
Funnily enough no, I haven't had to do that. I suppose you're going to claim that you have? :lol: Have you also had a mission and your squad's lives jeopardized by a big macho idiot charging headfirst into danger? There are just as many useless men as there are women. That's why training exists, and that's why a smart person would push in favour of equally high outcomes required for any person capable of doing the job.
Click to expand...
I absolutely did that very thing. But see...I was in the Air Force. We didnt rush headlong into many combat ground fire missions. Thats why I specifically stated "EXERCISES". But I guess you are too bent on trying to prove how really equal women are that you missed that fact, just like you missed the fact that the marines proved similar experiences with mission dropoff in integrated units. However, those real world exercises during times of peace told us all we needed to know about who could be relied on in real world environments, which is why during the 7 times I deployed in real world combat zones we didnt very often take women with us and when we did they tended to work in the tool crib or basops.
 
VanceMack said:
I absolutely did that very thing. But see...I was in the Air Force. We didnt rush headlong into many combat ground fire missions. Thats why I specifically stated "EXERCISES". But I guess you are too bent on trying to prove how really equal women are that you missed that fact, just like you missed the fact that the marines proved similar experiences with mission dropoff in integrated units. However, those real world exercises during times of peace told us all we needed to know about who could be relied on in real world environments, which is why during the 7 times I deployed in real world combat zones we didnt very often take women with us and when we did they tended to work in the tool crib or basops.
Click to expand...

As far as I recall, no-one in this thread ever said that women are on average mens' equal in physical strength. C'mon mate, try to see past your own machismo and personal anecdotes and grasp the issue here: Combat roles will be (and in many cases already are) open to applications by women. It is all but inevitable, as you said yourself.

And some women are very much up to the challenge. Y'all keep pointing to that USMC report, but perpetually fail to grasp some of the most basic statistical information provided: Some 9% of the female soldiers involved were above the average for the male soldiers in terms of aerobic capacity, anaerobic capacity and anaerobic strength. That tells us that A) the overall results are skewed by the inclusion of some ~80% women who were well below average, but also that B) there certainly are more than a couple of women who are up to the challenge. And even with the inclusion of a large number of sub-par female soldiers, the mixed groups equalled or exceeded the male groups in 31% of the tasks (where 45-55% would be expected for 'identical' groups).

So if those roles are going to be open to women, is it wisest for masculinazis keep bitching and whining that they can't do it (contrary to the available evidence), and thus guarantee that your opposite numbers will feel compelled to prove you wrong, and push for similar ratios of men and women?

If you want to degrade your combat units' effecitiveness, that's one of the best damn ways to go about it that I can think of, because it'll mean lowering standards to get the right quota of women in.


Or you could put on your big boy pants, get over the macho angst about women taking your jobs, and start pulling in favour of equal opportunity and non-discrimination: Demanding equal standards will get a lot more respect from virtually everyone, men, women and garden variety feminists than pushing for an arbitrary quota of women will.

Quotas are a dumb idea whether you want zero women or more than that.
 
Last edited:
Mithrae said:
As far as I recall, no-one in this thread ever said that women are on average mens' equal in physical strength. C'mon mate, try to see past your own machismo and personal anecdotes and grasp the issue here: Combat roles will be (and in many cases already are) open to applications by women. It is all but inevitable, as you said yourself.

And some women are very much up to the challenge. Y'all keep pointing to that USMC report, but perpetually fail to grasp some of the most basic statistical information provided: Some 9% of the female soldiers involved were above the average for the male soldiers in terms of aerobic capacity, anaerobic capacity and anaerobic strength. That tells us that A) the overall results are skewed by the inclusion of some ~80% women who were well below average, but also that B) there certainly are more than a couple of women who are up to the challenge. And even with the inclusion of a large number of sub-par female soldiers, the mixed groups equalled or exceeded the male groups in 31% of the tasks (where 45-55% would be expected for 'identical' groups).

So if those roles are going to be open to women, is it wisest for masculinazis keep bitching and whining that they can't do it (contrary to the available evidence), and thus guarantee that your opposite numbers will feel compelled to prove you wrong, and push for similar ratios of men and women?

If you want to degrade your combat units' effecitiveness, that's one of the best damn ways to go about it that I can think of, because it'll mean lowering standards to get the right quota of women in.


Or you could put on your big boy pants, get over the macho angst about women taking your jobs, and start pulling in favour of equal opportunity and non-discrimination: Demanding equal standards will get a lot more respect from virtually everyone, men, women and garden variety feminists than pushing for an arbitrary quota of women will.

Quotas are a dumb idea whether you want zero women or more than that.
Click to expand...

I don't have to worry about it. I've done my time. I worry about the future generations of soldiers that will have to deal with battle buddies with lowered physical standards and abilities.

Which branch of the service were you with?
 
VanceMack said:
I don't have to worry about it. I've done my time. I worry about the future generations of soldiers that will have to deal with battle buddies with lowered physical standards and abilities.
Click to expand...

So why not pull in favour of high standards and equality, rather than making it a big issue over people's genitals?

Everyone pushing for a quota based on genitals is making it so much more likely that a quota will remain, and just get raised higher: And that will mean lower physical standards.

VanceMack said:
Which branch of the service were you with?
Click to expand...

None; I applied to the Australian Army and was unsuccessful.
 
A woman who actually wants to go into ground combat with the American Infantry?!! Now THAT would truly be a "special" sort of woman. Hahahahahah.
 
Last edited:
braindrain said:
How exactly did an 11B end up working on missiles, aircraft and com and radar gear.
For that matter how do you have a CIV with oak leafs.
Click to expand...

Re-enlisted, into Pershing Missiles, went to a school at Redstone Arsenal for over a year to earn that MOS, maybe you have heard of it, people do it all the time. I wrote technical manuals when I got out. Served in two different combat zones, I would have thought you would know that is how they are earned, and by the way it is a CIB, not a CIV.
 
Ray410 said:
A woman who actually wants to go into ground combat with the American Infantry?!! Now THAT would truly be a "special" sort of woman. Hahahahahah.
Click to expand...
You have not been keeping up with current events, read more laugh less.
 
Casper said:
Re-enlisted, into Pershing Missiles, went to a school at Redstone Arsenal for over a year to earn that MOS, maybe you have heard of it, people do it all the time. I wrote technical manuals when I got out. Served in two different combat zones, I would have thought you would know that is how they are earned, and by the way it is a CIB, not a CIV.
Click to expand...
Thats quite a bit of stuff to do all in 8 years and you never mentioned reclassing so I was just curious is all.

As for the CIB yea I already mentioned the typo. A follow up on that though. You dont get a CIB for simply being in in a different combat zone. What combat action did you see in Korea that took place after Vietnam. Dont know to many folks who earned one for watching the DMZ.
 
braindrain said:
Thats quite a bit of stuff to do all in 8 years and you never mentioned reclassing so I was just curious is all.

As for the CIB yea I already mentioned the typo. A follow up on that though. You dont get a CIB for simply being in in a different combat zone. What combat action did you see in Korea that took place after Vietnam. Dont know to many folks who earned one for watching the DMZ.
Click to expand...

We ran patrols, set up ambushes, manned the South Fence and manned the two GP's overlooking Panmunjom, and yes we did get into fire fights on occasion, luckly while I was there no one was killed but a few were wounded in them. That is how you get your combat pay and CIB The DMZ was and still is one of the most dangerous borders in the world and most still know nothing about it They stopped giving combat pay after I left but it did not stop the NK's from beating a couple of officers to death with axe handles in broad daylight for trying to cut down a tree.
 
Casper said:
We ran patrols, set up ambushes, manned the South Fence and manned the two GP's overlooking Panmunjom, and yes we did get into fire fights on occasion, luckly while I was there no one was killed but a few were wounded in them. That is how you get your combat pay and CIB The DMZ was and still is one of the most dangerous borders in the world and most still know nothing about it They stopped giving combat pay after I left but it did not stop the NK's from beating a couple of officers to death with axe handles in broad daylight for trying to cut down a tree.
Click to expand...

Yes I know exactly how a CIB is earned. Have one myself from several combat zones. Simply know very few people, actually now that I think about it I know no one, that gets a CIB from Korea after the ceasefire because as I said simply being in a combat zone and conducting operations does not earn you one.
I learned about the killing of those officers over the tree deal while I was at the DMZ myself.
 
braindrain said:
Yes I know exactly how a CIB is earned. Have one myself from several combat zones. Simply know very few people, actually now that I think about it I know no one, that gets a CIB from Korea after the ceasefire because as I said simply being in a combat zone and conducting operations does not earn you one.
I learned about the killing of those officers over the tree deal while I was at the DMZ myself.
Click to expand...

Good then I should not have had to explain it. Had you been stationed on the actual DMZ you would have probably known that combat pay designation for the DMZ was cut out years before you were there. The supposed reason was that people were coming north, over the Bridge and after 21 trips they were able to claim they were serving in a combat zone running missions, so the 2nd ID in Casey put a stop to it completely. What unit were you with, as you can see by my Avatar was with the 1st/31st Inf Reg but I know there were later unit transitions with other units that rotated up there long after my time was done there. Have you been up to the two GP's there, lovely place, eh? Have only met one other person that has actually been to the place, I do know there is a web page for former members of the DMZ "Club", would have to look up the address. Personally I really liked Korea, the People were nice, the food was good, the only major down side was the weather, one learns to truly hate the COLD after experiencing the type Korea has to offer, but not to worry the Hot Humid Mosquito season will make you forget all about the cold.
 
Ray410 said:
Of course I have. I know exactly what I'm talking about. If you have something of substance to add to me, skip the nonsense and let's hear it.
Click to expand...

No, you have not, your statement proved it, clue: Ranger School.

I will leave it at that, it seems that "someone" is a bit sensitive today.

Have Fun:2wave:
 
Casper said:
No, you have not, your statement proved it, clue: Ranger School.

I will leave it at that, it seems that "someone" is a bit sensitive today.

Have Fun:2wave:
Click to expand...

I get the impression from your posts that you truly should let wiser, more experienced heads prevail in this regard. Prattling on about "schools" is just silly.

It's probably best that you've decided to withdraw.
 
Ray410 said:
I get the impression from your posts that you truly should let wiser, more experienced heads prevail in this regard. Prattling on about "schools" is just silly.
Click to expand...

That would not be You.

Good Day, Sir.
 
Casper said:
Good then I should not have had to explain it. Had you been stationed on the actual DMZ you would have probably known that combat pay designation for the DMZ was cut out years before you were there. The supposed reason was that people were coming north, over the Bridge and after 21 trips they were able to claim they were serving in a combat zone running missions, so the 2nd ID in Casey put a stop to it completely. What unit were you with, as you can see by my Avatar was with the 1st/31st Inf Reg but I know there were later unit transitions with other units that rotated up there long after my time was done there. Have you been up to the two GP's there, lovely place, eh? Have only met one other person that has actually been to the place, I do know there is a web page for former members of the DMZ "Club", would have to look up the address. Personally I really liked Korea, the People were nice, the food was good, the only major down side was the weather, one learns to truly hate the COLD after experiencing the type Korea has to offer, but not to worry the Hot Humid Mosquito season will make you forget all about the cold.
Click to expand...

The combat pay has nothing to do with earning a CIB so not really sure what that matters. Although I have no doubt there were plenty of folks trying to scam the system to get more money.

I am with 1st Special Forces Group and that's who I made the trip up there with. We were doing some work up there but I was never stationed there. I have actually been to Korea multiple times but only once to the DMZ.
And while yes it is pretty in Korea I have to say it is probably one of my least favorite places to go in Asia. It always seems to me the Korean people just aren't as nice as those in lots of other Asian countries and the only Korean food I really like is Korean BBQbut I will say that stuff is amazing. This has nothing to do with the Koreans but I also don't like going there because it has such s large American military footprint there. That just creates so many more hoops to jump through not to mention there is always some commander wanting a dog and pony show. Just is not as good a place to work as say Thailand or Maylasia.
 
braindrain said:
The combat pay has nothing to do with earning a CIB so not really sure what that matters. Although I have no doubt there were plenty of folks trying to scam the system to get more money.

I am with 1st Special Forces Group and that's who I made the trip up there with. We were doing some work up there but I was never stationed there. I have actually been to Korea multiple times but only once to the DMZ.
And while yes it is pretty in Korea I have to say it is probably one of my least favorite places to go in Asia. It always seems to me the Korean people just aren't as nice as those in lots of other Asian countries and the only Korean food I really like is Korean BBQbut I will say that stuff is amazing. This has nothing to do with the Koreans but I also don't like going there because it has such s large American military footprint there. That just creates so many more hoops to jump through not to mention there is always some commander wanting a dog and pony show. Just is not as good a place to work as say Thailand or Maylasia.
Click to expand...

Good grief, I never said they did, I said we got both, when you are being shot at and shooting at each other on a fairly regular basis and the area is considered a combat zone then yes you do get the award. Heck, I saw more actual action on the DMZ than I did in Vietnam, which was near the very end and we were leaving it to the ARVN's, as if they could deal with it, lies, lies, and more lies. Anyway, they gave them to us and I sure as heck was not going to turn it down, I earned it in my book.

Yes, the food is great there, liked how with some meals they had a small brazier on the table and you got to cook your own meat and use whatever sauces you wanted, lots of fun. Was invited a couple of times to Korean homes for dinner, they can really cook good eats, just watch out for the makgeoll, tasted like eggnog and could sneak up on ya hard. Loved the country and would have stayed another tour except for issues back in The World. Never got to Malaysia but did get to visit Thailand as a tourist, took an "in-country" vacation, went to Japan, Thailand, and Hong Kong in a two week tour, liked Hong Kong, Japan was too crowded for me, Thailand had the best food, HOT, and OMG they had the cutest women I had ever seen anywhere. Memories, fun to think back every now and then.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom