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Where does the rights hatred of unions come from?????????[W:536]

Thrilla said:
.. the vast majority of which are non-union :)
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Yes thats my point, their has been a massive increase in production and profit. None has gone to the worker in 30 years. If you can't see that this is bad for the country , your not thinking straight.
 
faithful_servant said:
It's not a matter of supporting corporations over workers, it's matter of not supporting corrupt organizations that artificially inflate wages, making us less competitive in the int'l market and driving jobs overseas. It's hating the fact that unions buy and sell politicians every day of the week. It's hating the extortion that gets used to inflate wages that has destroyed businesses. It's hating the unions support of mediocrity.

It has NOTHING to do with ANYTHING in your post. You didn't get one single point right as it relates to why we don't like unions. What you posted was simply projection and trying to create an argument that you thought that you could win by setting the parameters of the discussion so that you didn't have to think. An honest attempt at what you were trying (and failing miserably to do) would have been to ask the simple question "Why don't conservatives like unions?" and avoid all the projection.
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the thread OP is a massive straw man and assumes facts not in evidence along with a silly vitriol of anyone and anything that is not to the left of Trotskyite ideology.
 
beerftw said:
On the bolded my grandfather married a teacher who was part of the teachers union. they told here to vote for john kerry or she would be fired and barred from ever working a teacher job. She supported kerry but voted for bush just to spite them, told them about it, and no one did anything because she had the conversation recorded.

Some unions are good, but too many run like the mafia to protect their interests rather than the interests of those they are supposed to represent.
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Ridiculous and of course it means nothing , your trying to gain in the debate with trivia, business many times have done the same but forcing their workers to vote conservative, its happening all over the country right now. the threat is if they don't they will fire them.
 
jbander said:
Yes thats my point, their has been a massive increase in production and profit. None has gone to the worker in 30 years. If you can't see that this is bad for the country , your not thinking straight.
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well if the workers are willing to work for the wages they work for, what is your damage? labor is a commodity. Why in GOd's name would any well run corporation pay more for a commodity than the going market rate
 
OrphanSlug said:
I'm mainly referring to the adversarial relationship between trade agreements driving labor rates down, and applicable unions who have opposing goals. Think the UAW vs. NAFTA, Mexico and the trade agreement for the most part won that battle.

That realization renders the executive pay rate debate as mute, the US labor market overall is not operating in a vacuum.
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There are reasons for trade agreements and we are in a world market and there is no going back. It changes nothing , income disparity is done in many ways one being through taxes, another way is not complying with the anti trust laws and the way that has really hurt the poor and middle class is they are getting the same pay as 30 years ago but their debt has increase by large amounts over 30 years back. Literally the poorer you are the more chance that your debt will be credit card debt. Also much of the debt for the poor is for feeding their family, going into debt to educate their children and needed to pay the rent for a roof over their head.
 
jbander said:
Yes thats my point, their has been a massive increase in production and profit. None has gone to the worker in 30 years. If you can't see that this is bad for the country , your not thinking straight.
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Massive increase? What about the recession and this piss poor recovery? And the regulations eat at the profits, along with taxes on just about anything a business does.
 
coldjoint said:
Massive increase? What about the recession and this piss poor recovery? And the regulations eat at the profits, along with taxes on just about anything a business does.
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My friend your lost in FOX and Rush world. Yes there has been a massive increase in profits , the Bush recession was caused by the right and deregulation of industries that were then the cause of the collapse . Banks , Wall street and financials.The recovery is on par and in some cases better then our only comparable recession, which was the depression. Without regulation industry would eat our kids , how do I know that because when there was none or very little regulation industry did eat our children. The one I love the most of the Foxies is this Idea that there is massive taxes on anything with the fed. There isn't. in the early 50's business paid for over 33% of the total taxes, now it is under 9%. Personal taxes are the lowest they have been since the same early 50's.
 
jbander said:
Hive mentality is that like the wealthy living in gated communities.
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You're comparing apples to Buicks.

The Idea that I can't be a individual because of union member ship while a business man can be, being in a business membership. Doesn't make sense does it.
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What the hell is a "business membership?"

jbander said:
Love the little shot at the end, just one problem we have the most productive worker in the world.
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Spoken like a true member of collectivist thinking.
 
jbander said:
My friend your lost in FOX and Rush world. Yes there has been a massive increase in profits , the Bush recession was caused by the right and deregulation of industries that were then the cause of the collapse . Banks , Wall street and financials.The recovery is on par and in some cases better then our only comparable recession, which was the depression. Without regulation industry would eat our kids , how do I know that because when there was none or very little regulation industry did eat our children. The one I love the most of the Foxies is this Idea that there is massive taxes on anything with the fed. There isn't. in the early 50's business paid for over 33% of the total taxes, now it is under 9%. Personal taxes are the lowest they have been since the same early 50's.
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.You are not very liberal with your links are you. I would like to see how the recovery did better and at what.

And what is this crap about eating children? If you are referring to child labor laws, they have 0 to do with this.
 
jbander said:
It's Interesting the dislike of unions. I support them simply because your choosing between the worker or the business owners and executives. Can you come up with any reason you support corporations over their workers. You do know that the wages of the workers haven't gone up on average for 30 years with production increase of over 80% in that time period . The fact is that it has showed up in corporate profits and not in wages. The corporate heads have seen massive increase in their wages and wealth in that same time period. And the discrepancy in wealth in this country has only one other time that compares to know and that is right before the great depression. If your dislike of unions is because of their evils , you have no case because business history puts unions on the back burner compared to the evils of business historically. What I'm most amazed about is how so many on the right are voting against their best interest.
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Its not just "the right", Americans have always hated unions, even at its height in the 1950's, labor unions only made up around 33% of workers (only 10% today), compared to countries like sweden and denmark where union membership is currently over 95%. You could blame it on neoconfederates, neoliberals, mccarthyism, COINTEL, the cold war, or the influence of wall st, etc etc but generally, theres never been much support for unions in america
 
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Velvet Elvis said:
You're comparing apples to Buicks.


What the hell is a "business membership?"


Spoken like a true member of collectivist thinking.
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Oh woopy , degraded down to nonsense, collectivist thinking. Ya you bet. Is it you just don't like the workers in this country and think that all the increase wealth of this wealthy country should only be allowed to go into the hands of minute few ? Unless somehow you can come up with something that denies this, because my premise is supported by everyone that thinks. Even many conservative people and business. Because it's simple the disparity is massive and all the wealth has gone into the hands of just a few in our population, is this your Idea on how our economy and tax structure should be. This makes sense to you even. How in the hell can it be good for the country.
 
dimensionallava said:
Its not just "the right", Americans have always hated unions, even at its height in the 1950's, labor unions only made up around 33% of workers (only 10% today), compared to countries like sweden and denmark where union membership is currently over 95%. You could blame it on neoconfederates, neliberals, mccarythyism, COINTEL, the cold war, or the influence of wall st, etc etc but generally, theres never been much support for unions in america
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33% in my eyes is massive support and 10% isn't even close to enough to help the disparity that is poison to our country values and dreams.
 
Mr Person said:
1. "Artificially inflate wages"? It's called using the freedom of association to raise the bargaining power of workers until it's more on par with large employers' bargaining power. Otherwise, they're stuck with the minimum wage or whatever their employers deign to grant them.

2. Less competitive against whom in terms of worker wages? Europe? China? India? Sure, we could get rid of unions and the minimum wage, but it will be a miserable race to the bottom.

3. Buy and sell politicians? You mean unlike the rich people whose taxes you constantly want to slash? Unlike the employers who have to bargain with unions?






I see nothing wrong with private sector unions as a general proposition. Maybe talk about specific ones if you want to highlight wrongdoing.

Public sector unions is a different story, but that's because the taxpayer pays their wages, but they're bargaining with appointed/hired officials not directly accountable to the taxpayer.
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It's not freedom of association that gets the wage increases, it's extortion by threat of strike.
"Race to the bottom"?? How about providing living wage jobs?? Oh wait, that argument only applies when it can buy votes...
Just because someone else is corrupt does not excuse the corruption in the unions.
 
jbander said:
You are kidding I hope , all those things you say goes 10 times more for business. If you own a business and want it all , then minimum wage seems Ok to you, but if your a worker. Your wage is set by unions whether your in one or not. Were in the hell do you think this massive increase in profit should go to. You do know the average executive in this country makes 17 million a year. The average single worker in this country makes less the $25,000.00 a year , that's the average including billionaire wages also. that means the average executive makes 700 times more then their workers. I mean seriously do you really think you have a case.
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If you own a business, you understand that there is a balance between wages, quality workers and profits. All three have to work together in order for a business to thrive. You want to ignore that fact and try to make it sound like there is no benefit to paying what the market demands for quality help.
 
jbander said:
33% in my eyes is massive support and 10% isn't even close to enough to help the disparity that is poison to our country values and dreams.
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compared to other countries 33% is nothing, and the drop was largely political, in the 70' and 80's when union membership fell 50% in the states other countries saw little too no decrease in union membership. Meaning people basically voted against the idea having unions. the only countries that saw a similair decrease in unions during that time were the UK, Italy, and of course West germany, and even they only saw decreases of around 10%, and all still have union membership over 30%, in fact the UK still has over 50% union membership
 
faithful_servant said:
If you own a business, you understand that there is a balance between wages, quality workers and profits. All three have to work together in order for a business to thrive. You want to ignore that fact and try to make it sound like there is no benefit to paying what the market demands for quality help.
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i dont think the biggest problem with slavery was that people never fed their slaves, farmers have always fed their horses and other beasts of burden.
 
dimensionallava said:
i dont think the biggest problem with slavery was that people never fed their slaves, farmers have always fed their horses and other beasts of burden.
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Oh look a lame attempt at drawing a comparison that has nothing to do with anything that has been said. Just a sorry attempt at painting people who dislike unions as being supportive of slavery. It's this kind o flowbrow crap that drags down threads... Time to step it up and engage in honest discussion, dl.
 
faithful_servant said:
Oh look a lame attempt at drawing a comparison that has nothing to do with anything that has been said. Just a sorry attempt at painting people who dislike unions as being supportive of slavery. It's this kind o flowbrow crap that drags down threads... Time to step it up and engage in honest discussion, dl.
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why is bringing up forced labor in a discussion about labor unions not relevant? is that just because you say so?
 
jbander said:
You are kidding I hope , all those things you say goes 10 times more for business. If you own a business and want it all , then minimum wage seems Ok to you, but if your a worker. Your wage is set by unions whether your in one or not. Were in the hell do you think this massive increase in profit should go to. You do know the average executive in this country makes 17 million a year. The average single worker in this country makes less the $25,000.00 a year , that's the average including billionaire wages also. that means the average executive makes 700 times more then their workers. I mean seriously do you really think you have a case.
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The average executive does not make 17 million a year. The average CEO might, but not a run of the mill executive.
 
jbander said:
You are kidding I hope , all those things you say goes 10 times more for business. If you own a business and want it all , then minimum wage seems Ok to you, but if your a worker. Your wage is set by unions whether your in one or not. Were in the hell do you think this massive increase in profit should go to. You do know the average executive in this country makes 17 million a year. The average single worker in this country makes less the $25,000.00 a year , that's the average including billionaire wages also. that means the average executive makes 700 times more then their workers. I mean seriously do you really think you have a case.
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As long as the price is being negotiated between two free persons, one is willing to pay the other for a service he wants done, the other is willing to do the job? I don't see any reason to allow the government to meddle. If you don't want to work for $ 25.000 find something to do that is of enough valuable to others and don't ask government to pay you money taken from people that do do things others want them to do.
 
jbander said:
It's Interesting the dislike of unions. I support them simply because your choosing between the worker or the business owners and executives. Can you come up with any reason you support corporations over their workers. You do know that the wages of the workers haven't gone up on average for 30 years with production increase of over 80% in that time period . The fact is that it has showed up in corporate profits and not in wages. The corporate heads have seen massive increase in their wages and wealth in that same time period. And the discrepancy in wealth in this country has only one other time that compares to know and that is right before the great depression. If your dislike of unions is because of their evils , you have no case because business history puts unions on the back burner compared to the evils of business historically. What I'm most amazed about is how so many on the right are voting against their best interest.
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It's simple... My problem is with public sector unions. They simply should not exist period.

The beefs I have with private sector unions are few, and revolve around the subject of union dues.

.



.
 
jbander said:
Ridiculous and of course it means nothing , your trying to gain in the debate with trivia, business many times have done the same but forcing their workers to vote conservative, its happening all over the country right now. the threat is if they don't they will fire them.
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Because they have the authority to follow all of their workers into the voting booths and know how their workers vote?
 
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