Here Are 6 Valid Arguments For & Against Trump

Mark Davis: Here are 6 arguments for and against Trump. All are valid. | Dallas Morning News

Three pro-Donald Trump statements:

1. The secret of Donald Trump’s appeal lies beyond normal politics; he has managed to attract a broad coalition that believes he can actually achieve what generations of do-nothing politicians have not.

2. The panic from his critics proves that he is onto something. The Hitler comparisons, the hand-wringing about the death of conservatism, and other wailing is mostly from establishment types petrified that they no longer run things.

3. Amid claims that he cannot beat Hillary Clinton, the magnitude of his victories and the breadth of his voter base indicate he might in fact be the strongest candidacy against her.


Now, consider the flip side:

1. Trump suffocates his attributes with a nearly daily dose of juvenile speech and behavior that is beneath the presidency.

2. His agenda contains a combination of inconsistent pronouncements and recent epiphanies which invite skepticism.

3. He speaks rarely, if at all, about the two most vital pillars of conservatism — fidelity to the Constitution and commitment to reduce the size of a bloated government.

Now, the payoff: I believe all six.

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Just saw this and found it interesting. the rest of the article is a good read as well. I tend to agree with most/if not all of those six as well.

The panic from his critics proves that he is onto something.

Trump has figured a way to wrestle the media attention toward himself so he doesn't pay for any airtime. He then says very controversial things to keep the attention on himself.

Brilliant.

Those are all reasonable positions, but I think it missed one of the most important reasons to vote against Trump; voting for Trump validates his style of campaigning. Regardless of whether you support his positions or not, his style of campaigning is very harmful to the political process. While it shows a masterful exploitation of modern day technology and politics by Trump, it is a form of lightning in a bottle which can only strike once, but will be emulated many more times if successful.

If Trump wins, then future candidates will take pages out of his playbook. But what is shocking now won't be shocking later...so a candidate will have to be even more shocking the next time. It is a type of campaigning which should not be condoned.

There are many things which attract people to Trump. There are things he has said which even I like, most notably the idea he is independent of big money interests (though, I assure you, it is a very tempered hope). But the way he has campaigned does not deserve a vote, for the slippery slope it would likely take us down.

JoeTrumps said:

Mark Davis: Here are 6 arguments for and against Trump. All are valid. | Dallas Morning News

Just saw this and found it interesting. the rest of the article is a good read as well. I tend to agree with most/if not all of those six as well.

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What's really interesting to me about this is that NONE of the pro's have anything to do with his substance and whether he would be good as president, but ALL of the cons have to do his substance and why he would suck as president.

Basically, what this says is that the sociological response generated by Trump's existence is interesting, but he is a god-awful candidate on every level from positions to political literacy to basic personality.

I agree on both points. And that would be an insanely bad reason for anyone to vote for him.

JoeTrumps said:

Mark Davis: Here are 6 arguments for and against Trump. All are valid. | Dallas Morning News

Mark Davis said:

Three pro-Donald Trump statements:

1. The secret of Donald Trump’s appeal lies beyond normal politics; he has managed to attract a broad coalition that believes he can actually achieve what generations of do-nothing politicians have not.

2. The panic from his critics proves that he is onto something. The Hitler comparisons, the hand-wringing about the death of conservatism, and other wailing is mostly from establishment types petrified that they no longer run things.

3. Amid claims that he cannot beat Hillary Clinton, the magnitude of his victories and the breadth of his voter base indicate he might in fact be the strongest candidacy against her.


Now, consider the flip side:

1. Trump suffocates his attributes with a nearly daily dose of juvenile speech and behavior that is beneath the presidency.

2. His agenda contains a combination of inconsistent pronouncements and recent epiphanies which invite skepticism.

3. He speaks rarely, if at all, about the two most vital pillars of conservatism — fidelity to the Constitution and commitment to reduce the size of a bloated government.

Now, the payoff: I believe all six.

Click to expand...

Just saw this and found it interesting. the rest of the article is a good read as well. I tend to agree with most/if not all of those six as well.

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If Mark Davis believes all six, then that is because Mark Davis is failing to appreciate the data. Let's look at those top three:

1. The secret of Donald Trump’s appeal lies beyond normal politics; he has managed to attract a broad coalition that believes he can actually achieve what generations of do-nothing politicians have not.

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No he hasn't. Donald Trump has managed to attract a consistent ~34% of Republican voters, averaging in the low 30s. He was at ~34% before Super Tuesday, he got ~33% in Super Tuesday, and has gotten ~33% after Super Tuesday. There is little indication to date that he is capable of expanding significantly beyond his current core base, as his overall share of the vote has remained around the same even as the GOP field winnowed. Furthermore, there are strong indications that he can't expand significantly beyond his core base. Mind you, Trump has also not faced a serious negative campaign until very recently - he's had sky-high sums of free media, and no headwinds. That situation is now changing, and will be very different in the General.

2. The panic from his critics proves that he is onto something. The Hitler comparisons, the hand-wringing about the death of conservatism, and other wailing is mostly from establishment types petrified that they no longer run things.

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No it doesn't, and no they don't. For example, I am worried about the fact that increasingly single-parenthood is the norm in our culture. Children raised by single parents suffer from a wide breadth of disadvantages. That doesn't mean that single parenthood is "on to something", or is secretly somehow a great program for society. Furthermore, the Fascist comparisons are because Trump acts like a fascist. He argues for militant nationalism combined with a kind of middle-class socialism, and leverages betrayal narratives featuring weak elites and an unpopular minority. The poli sci name for that belief system is Fascism.

3. Amid claims that he cannot beat Hillary Clinton, the magnitude of his victories and the breadth of his voter base indicate he might in fact be the strongest candidacy against her.

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Trump hasn't won any "magnitude" in his victories, and the data out there pretty much demands the conclusion that, in fact, he is the weakest candidate in the GOP against Hillary. In the process of shoring up support from his slice-of-a-slice of hard core supporters, Trump has managed to deeply alienate the rest of the electorate. In fact, Trump has a higher negative rating than any major party candidate for President that Gallup has polled, ever.

JoeTrumps said:

Mark Davis: Here are 6 arguments for and against Trump. All are valid. | Dallas Morning News




Just saw this and found it interesting. the rest of the article is a good read as well. I tend to agree with most/if not all of those six as well.

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One of the dumbest articles I have read in the DMN in a while and that is saying something.

"The panic from his critics proves that he is onto something"

How exactly is this a valid praise? The panic from his critics come from his overtly racist comments and loud support from white supremacist groups.

Crovax said:

How exactly is this a valid praise? The panic from his critics come from his overtly racist comments and loud support from white supremacist groups.

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Actually (and sadly) not it really isn't. When Trump was still just a novelty, those things didn't really seem to matter to much of the GOP in power. It's only now that Republicans are starting to realize he has the inside track to the nomination that you start to hear the panic.

Trump started his campaign making racist statements. It's only been in the last couple of weeks that the real hand-wringing in the party began (though, in fairness, there were some Republicans who were against Trump from the beginning). I agree it SHOULD be the racism emanating from his campaign which is causing the discontentment with Trump, but it's not accurate to say that it is.

Slyfox696 said:

Actually (and sadly) not it really isn't. When Trump was still just a novelty, those things didn't really seem to matter to much of the GOP in power. It's only now that Republicans are starting to realize he has the inside track to the nomination that you start to hear the panic.

Trump started his campaign making racist statements. It's only been in the last couple of weeks that the real hand-wringing in the party began (though, in fairness, there were some Republicans who were against Trump from the beginning). I agree it SHOULD be the racism emanating from his campaign which is causing the discontentment with Trump, but it's not accurate to say that it is.

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The only reason Trump is on track for the nomination is because there are 4 candidates. After the terrorists attacks Trump's polling numbers went to about 34% they have stayed at that ever since and now we are through 20 primaries/caucuses and Trump has right at 34% of the vote. Even has candidates have dropped out Trump is still only getting 34% of the vote his avg on both super Tues and super Sat. Trump loses in a 2 man race to any of the remaining candidates and the only way he can get to 50% + 1 in a 3 or 4 man race is if he wins both Ohio and Florida and even then it will be close.

Orly? said:

The panic from his critics proves that he is onto something.

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Don't get all bent out of shape but I am sure that could be said about Hitler also, or maybe closer to home Obama. Being a loud mouth with no manners or class that sells promises built on BS does equate to being a good choice to running this Nation. Let's say he managed to somehow get elected do you actually believe ANYONE in The House or Senate would work with him? He would be a lame duck from Day 1.

WCH said:

Trump has figured a way to wrestle the media attention toward himself so he doesn't pay for any airtime. He then says very controversial things to keep the attention on himself.

Brilliant.

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If Obama, Hillary, Bernie or any other presidential candidate spewed half the nonsense that trump does, they would have been disregarded a long time ago. It's actually quite fascinating.

2. The panic from his critics proves that he is onto something. The Hitler comparisons, the hand-wringing about the death of conservatism, and other wailing is mostly from establishment types petrified that they no longer run things.

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Of course, it has nothing to do with his narcissistic/megalomaniac tendencies...

Orly? said:

The panic from his critics proves that he is onto something.

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As a libertarian, how do you feel about his criticism of Apple, his desire to "shut down" the internet, and his abuse of eminent domain laws?

Geoist said:

As a libertarian, how do you feel about his criticism of Apple, his desire to "shut down" the internet, and abuse eminent domain laws?

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I disagree with his stance on apple but I expect that from the NSA. If you wanted to keep your encrypted data safe you would be a fool to trust apple anyway. Anyone with half a braincell on encryption and wanted to implement it properly they would encrypt it themselves, likely multiple times. The NSA only spys on the guys that don't know what they are doing. If they know what they are doing the NSA can't see..

I don't know about this shut down the internet thing, source?
I do not think it is abuse of the eminent domain laws..

Groogrux said:

If Obama, Hillary, Bernie or any other presidential candidate spewed half the nonsense that trump does, they would have been disregarded a long time ago. It's actually quite fascinating.

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our current president was elected on "hope and change". nothing is impossible sweetie!

JoeTrumps said:

our current president was elected on "hope and change". nothing is impossible sweetie!

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That's a positive message. Trump spews hate. Completely different.

Orly? said:

If you wanted to keep your encrypted data safe you would be a fool to trust apple anyway.

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Why is that? They have demonstrated so far that they can be trusted (at least when it comes to encryption). They've refused to play ball with the government on a terrorists' phone.

I don't know about this shut down the internet thing, source?

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Donald Trump wants to 'close up' the Internet - Dec. 8, 2015

I do not think it is abuse of the eminent domain laws..

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For more than 30 years Vera Coking lived in a three-story house just off the Boardwalk in Atlantic City. Donald Trump built his 22-story Trump Plaza next door. In the mid-1990s Trump wanted to build a limousine parking lot for the hotel, so he bought several nearby properties. But three owners, including the by then elderly and widowed Ms Coking, refused to sell.

Trump turned to a government agency – the Casino Reinvestment Development Authority (CRDA) – to take Coking’s property….

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news.../08/19/donald-trumps-abuse-of-eminent-domain/

Geoist said:

For more than 30 years Vera Coking lived in a three-story house just off the Boardwalk in Atlantic City. Donald Trump built his 22-story Trump Plaza next door. In the mid-1990s Trump wanted to build a limousine parking lot for the hotel, so he bought several nearby properties. But three owners, including the by then elderly and widowed Ms Coking, refused to sell.

Trump turned to a government agency – the Casino Reinvestment Development Authority (CRDA) – to take Coking’s property….

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news.../08/19/donald-trumps-abuse-of-eminent-domain/

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Not abuse IMO..

Looking at the "close internet" thing..

Slyfox696 said:

Those are all reasonable positions, but I think it missed one of the most important reasons to vote against Trump; voting for Trump validates his style of campaigning. Regardless of whether you support his positions or not, his style of campaigning is very harmful to the political process. While it shows a masterful exploitation of modern day technology and politics by Trump, it is a form of lightning in a bottle which can only strike once, but will be emulated many more times if successful.

If Trump wins, then future candidates will take pages out of his playbook. But what is shocking now won't be shocking later...so a candidate will have to be even more shocking the next time. It is a type of campaigning which should not be condoned.

There are many things which attract people to Trump. There are things he has said which even I like, most notably the idea he is independent of big money interests (though, I assure you, it is a very tempered hope). But the way he has campaigned does not deserve a vote, for the slippery slope it would likely take us down.

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does voting for Hillary validate

1) lying about numerous things-from sniper fire to the Benghazi screw up

2) that the way for a woman to get ahead in politics is through marriage

3) that its a good idea to be an elitist and treat white house staff members like serfs?

Groogrux said:

That's a positive message. Trump spews hate. Completely different.

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no, it's a simplistic and unrealistic message. exactly like Trump's "make america great again" is.

who exactly does trump hate?! keeping in mind, when Hillary was asked who her biggest enemy was in a debate, she said REPUBLICANS. Trump doesn't say that about dems. he says he will work with them. how is that hateful?

Geoist said:

Donald Trump wants to 'close up' the Internet - Dec. 8, 2015

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I disagree with his stance but then again I expect that from the government. It will just push those internet users to the deep web and create a higher barrier of entry to whatever they are trying to do on the internet that they are closing in on.

JoeTrumps said:

Three pro-Donald Trump statements:

1. The secret of Donald Trump’s appeal lies beyond normal politics; he has managed to attract a broad coalition that believes he can actually achieve what generations of do-nothing politicians have not.

2. The panic from his critics proves that he is onto something. The Hitler comparisons, the hand-wringing about the death of conservatism, and other wailing is mostly from establishment types petrified that they no longer run things.

3. Amid claims that he cannot beat Hillary Clinton, the magnitude of his victories and the breadth of his voter base indicate he might in fact be the strongest candidacy against her.

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These respond to the author of the thing you quoted above, not you personally:



1. The fact that Trump mobilized people that "do-nothing politicians" have not is not inherently positive or negative. Whether it is positive or negative depends on whether a Trump presidency would be positive or negative.

In the next point your mention Hitler. Hitler mobilized all sorts of people. That did not end well.




2. No.

(A) Equating strong criticism with "panic" or "fear" is just a cheap political argument tactic, used increasingly since Obama was elected: if you say that Palin is a dingbat, a Palin supporter will say you are "scared" of her. See also slime term "wailing" in the next part of #2. The equation of all criticism with "fear" is an absurd, slimey, and stupid tactic that seems to have grown up on the right wing over the last several years. It's a nice way to excuse yourself from having to address the criticism on the merits.

(B) Plenty of people who despise the establishment criticize - oh I'm sorry, "wail" because of "panic" - Trump as well. Trump is capitalizing on the people smart enough to despise the establishment but dumb enough to think that any anti-establishment candidate, no matter how awful, is better than an establishment candidate.



3. Is that why he seems to be projected to lose against Clinton in the general by pretty much any source? Since the article quoted by the OP brought up Hitler, I'd say that's fair game: he also had a broad base. Clearly, having a broad base doesn't necessarily mean anything in particular about the quality or wisdom of the candidate's policies.

JoeTrumps said:

no, it's a simplistic and unrealistic message. exactly like Trump's "make america great again" is.

who exactly does trump hate?! keeping in mind, when Hillary was asked who her biggest enemy was in a debate, she said REPUBLICANS. Trump doesn't say that about dems. he says he will work with them. how is that hateful?

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Sunday night Bernie said the white people have no idea what it's like to live in a ghetto and be harassed. Everyone has their balls in an uproar. Trump says Mexicans are rapists and his ratings go up.

Orly? said:

Not abuse IMO..

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How is bribing public officials to take people's property and give it to you not abusive? FFS, even Bernie Sanders said that the Kelo ruling was a disastrous expansion of the power of government.


Or, for that matter, as a libertarian, how do you feel about Donald Trump arguing that, as President, he would have the right to round up and deport millions of American citizens?

As a libertarian, how do you feel about the fact that Trump is a crony-capitalist, who argues that we need things like industry bailouts?

As a libertarian, how do you feel about Trump's repeated embrace of universal health insurance, paid for by "the government"?

As a libertarian, how do you feel about Trump alternately suggesting and demanding religious tests?

As a libertarian, how do you feel about Trump's proposals that we initiate Trade Wars with our major trading partners?

As a libertarian, how do you feel about Trump's claims that the President of the United States should be able to pick winners and losers in the marketplace?

As a libertarian, how do you feel about Trump's claims that the President of the United States should be able to control what department stores say in their spaces, and what coffee companies put on their cups?


I'd love to see you answer these individually. Donald Trump is - with the plausible exception of Hillary Clinton - the least Libertarian candidate running.


As a libertarian, I'd also like to know how you account for the fact that the vast majority of your fellow Trump supporters aren't lovers of freedom, but rather, authoritarians.

cpwill said:

If Mark Davis believes all six, then that is because Mark Davis is failing to appreciate the data. Let's look at those top three:



No he hasn't. Donald Trump has managed to attract a consistent ~34% of Republican voters, averaging in the low 30s. He was at ~34% before Super Tuesday, he got ~33% in Super Tuesday, and has gotten ~33% after Super Tuesday. There is little indication to date that he is capable of expanding significantly beyond his current core base, as his overall share of the vote has remained around the same even as the GOP field winnowed. Furthermore, there are strong indications that he can't expand significantly beyond his core base. Mind you, Trump has also not faced a serious negative campaign until very recently - he's had sky-high sums of free media, and no headwinds. That situation is now changing, and will be very different in the General.



No it doesn't, and no they don't. For example, I am worried about the fact that increasingly single-parenthood is the norm in our culture. Children raised by single parents suffer from a wide breadth of disadvantages. That doesn't mean that single parenthood is "on to something", or is secretly somehow a great program for society. Furthermore, the Fascist comparisons are because Trump acts like a fascist. He argues for militant nationalism combined with a kind of middle-class socialism, and leverages betrayal narratives featuring weak elites and an unpopular minority. The poli sci name for that belief system is Fascism.



Trump hasn't won any "magnitude" in his victories, and the data out there pretty much demands the conclusion that, in fact, he is the weakest candidate in the GOP against Hillary. In the process of shoring up support from his slice-of-a-slice of hard core supporters, Trump has managed to deeply alienate the rest of the electorate. In fact, Trump has a higher negative rating than any major party candidate for President that Gallup has polled, ever.

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Well said. Trump would be both a disaster for the GOP in November and for the nation should he pull off the impossible and actually win the general election.

Your point about his fascistic tendencies is right on the money.