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To hate the Establishment is to Hate having a Majority

That's been covered in several threads. But a quick recap:

Cruz stated that no one who does not start his day on his knees is fit to be President.

Cruz has also stated he will always put the bible ahead of the Constitution.

That's good enough for me.

He's a strict Constitutionalist having defended the Constitution numerous times.

What you described does not a Theocracy make.
 
He has Religious principles but so what ? So you're saying a Christian should never be allowed to be President again ?

Absolutely not. I've voted for religious people from Kennedy through Romney. But I won't vote for anyone who puts those principles ahead of his job as leader of the country.

Cruz has stated he will. He's a Christian first, an American second, a Republican third.
 
He's a strict Constitutionalist having defended the Constitution numerous times.

What you described does not a Theocracy make.

As I said, it's close enough for me.
 
I think a lot of people are tired of government incompetence and corruption. Why does it have to be any more complex than that?

I'm a political scientist at heart - it's a matter of intellectual interest and analysis (perhaps too much).
 
1) For the sake of this argument, I think we can agree that "establishment" should be deemed synonymous with "political experience."

2)If you think about the current political system that is used in the United States, seniority is one of the most important elements to the Senate and the Congress because these individuals are given preferential treatment for their desired committee positions. These appointments, in turn, make it easier for candidates to get re-elected because they are able to tout their positions and the legislation that their seniority allowed them to successfully pass for their respective constituents.

3)As you might expect, the implications for individual candidates is rather undesirable given the fact that holding onto power becomes tougher (instead of easier) with each successful election.
4) And yet, the implications for a political party are even more daunting if that hatred for political experience is not evenly spread between the two political parties (and it is currently does not). If you hate political experience, then a logical extension of that philosophy is that you will hate having your own political party in the majority. The only way that a political party maintains a majority status in our current political system is to have a significant mix of senior politicians along with a minority mix of fresh individuals (who would subsequently become experienced as the older individuals retire)....
5) Now I recognize that if you put these two questions - "Do you want political experience from your candidate?" And "Do you prefer that your political party be in the majority?" - to the voters that dislike political experience, then you are very likely to receive a "No" as a response to the later question.

1) I disagree (as have others) with your definition of "establishment". The establishment, as the word is used currently in politics, refers to the political machine of each party. It is a group of well connected politicians and those who support them blindly in exchange for the favor of said machine. Funded (and directed) by various sectors of Corporate America (depending on the party), their goals are not the peoples goals. Their goals are to increase and maintain their own power, pass and strike down the regulations their donors want (so they remain donors), and to make sure the will of the people doesn't get in the way. The democratic establishment has shown how much better it is at this game this cycle. Like FT pointed out, Bernie is outside the establishment yet very experienced politically. It has to do with sacrificing your principles and supporting the machine blindly in exchange for the success/advancement/money that the machine brings to most of its supporters.

2) This is mostly true. The more experience, the more contacts and connections, the more likely you are to get something done generally speaking. However, for those that are part of the machine, their goals are not beneficial to America, just Corporate America and the Establishment. So this, like a sword, is good or bad depending on who holds it. Its my opinion that most anti-establishment types see things this way. Every crowd has a certain % of dumb ****s though.

3) Not necessarily. I want to say it gets harder to fake the longer your in office, but some really have no problem with it, and some even seem to have a natural talent for it. For a politician of principle though, the people either like you or they don't, time likely won't change that a great deal.

4) A lot of this stems from your definition of "establishment". The hatred isn't evenly spread no, but it has a strong presence in both parties at the moment. The democratic machine is much better at managing this sentiment, and has all those fail safe measures they've set up in case someone like Bernie surges enough and threatens their favorite. If such hatred were blind you would be correct. However, that hatred is not blind, but directed at the Establishment as I defined it. Not all politicians of experience are part of the Establishment.

5) I would say you're technically correct, but the results of such questioning wouldn't represent what you think. If you added a condition like "If you could remove establishment politicians from your party...." and then follow with those questions, the answers would be the opposite. The principle at work in all of this is people want the (entirely separate) machines that have hijacked the 2 major political parties gone, because they're starting to understand that what the people want comes second to what the establishment wants, and if the 2 conflict, the people go without, and always will until something changes.


I'm starting to feel that corporate money and politicians should be separated like church and state.
 
But to be back on topic, I feel the OP is misguided. The Establishment is not the People, much less the majority.
Anti-Establishmentism (omaigawd I think I invented a new political sub-ideology) is merely the dissatisfaction (possibly as extreme as outright fury) at the notion of a tiny elite ruling with disproportionate wealth and power.

Then your definition applies to nearly all government officials - or at least those on the national level. It is extremely difficult to run for and successfully obtain a national position without previously having or actively obtaining during the course of your political career a disproportionate wealth and power.
 
You started this off on a wrong premise. the "establishment" has nothing to do with experience, but of the mindset, actions of the ruling class and it's aims and goals which for years have been divorced from the will of the people who elected them.

You see establishment politicians on both sides cater to large businesses, start wars of choices, give sweetheart deals and bailouts, commit crimes without being held accountable, all at the expense of the American people.

That's the establishment people are sick of.

You claim that establishment has nothing to do with political experience and then you list off a lot of political accomplishments that are almost the natural result of political experience. I fail to see how you can obtain a degree of political experience, for the overwhelming majority of politicians, without doing some mixture or version of "cater[ing] to large businesses, start[ing] wars of choices, giving sweetheart deals and bailouts, and commit crimes without being held accountable."
 
Disagree. What I want from candidates is leadership and management skills, not simply political skills which is a subset of leadership, and some variety of experiences in different fields. Leadership skills are transferrable. It is sad the lack of leadership experience in the current crop, so lacking in executive experience. Sanders was mayor of a moderately sized town for 8 years. Clinton has basically none as it is hard to separate her 4 year at State from Obama's influence. No experience for either outside of law and politics. And the Republicans this time are even worse, arguably. Minimal political experience, no military experience, no experience outside of law and politics except Carson and Trump. Kasich has the most executive political experience of those left but he doesn't seem to be going far.
 
You claim that establishment has nothing to do with political experience and then you list off a lot of political accomplishments that are almost the natural result of political experience. I fail to see how you can obtain a degree of political experience, for the overwhelming majority of politicians, without doing some mixture or version of "cater[ing] to large businesses, start[ing] wars of choices, giving sweetheart deals and bailouts, and commit crimes without being held accountable."



you are meshing two different things that are not the same thing. you are still arguing that the establishment = experience.


this is not true.
 
They're Conservative principles<Ted Cruz's principles>.
I think, here, there is a divergence between conservative principles and Conservative principles. Large C - Conservative principles believe the government should be an 'evangelist' to the rest of the world by establishing, for example, like governments and like religions to the rest of the world. Neocons, for example. Ted Cruz and George W. would be good examples of Conservatives. Ted Cruz wants, in no uncertain terms, for example, to declare his allegiance to Israel because Christianity has roots in Judaism.
Sidenote: Trump wants to treat Jews and Palestinians equally because he is partial to equality. If, for example, it has been found the Palestinians have been 'overbearing' in their relationship with Israel (understand Trump believes in defending boarders), Trump will side with Israel.

Small c - conservatives, for example, believe in liberty, small government and being a literalist when interpreting The Constitution. The Pauls, Pat Buchanan and Barry Goldwater would be good examples of conservatives. Reagan was a so-so conservative while president.
Fenton, you are a Conservative and I am more of a conservative than other classifications. Ted Cruz is Conservative and Donald Trump is more of a conservative than other classifications (Trump does has more of a desire to maintain the integrity of the US than most conservatives).
 
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We don't live in a democracy, we live in a democratic republic. It's been that way for a couple hundred years now.
It does not change what I demonstrated. If anything it concretes what I have said.
The establishment does not want majority rule and, as such, fighting the establishment is not fighting against majority rule which doesn't exist anyway.
There are far more reasons that people rally against the establishment than in an effort to bring down majority (especially since the majority statement isn't exemplified to begin with).
That's where I was going with that.

The 100s of years part is irrelevant. The levies in New Orleans were like that for a hundred years before a hurricane came along and wiped them out.

I am for majority rule when it comes to choosing a leader. I think the majority should get to choose the leader. I am not for majority rule in some obvious areas such as human rights. The establishment holds on to the tradition that says these few politicians are smarter than the average American and should get to usurp their vote should their vote be "dangerous" (whatever that means). This is basically tyranny in the guise of "for your own good". It also treads close to a corruption that allows the Government to ditch a candidate that it feels is "dangerous" to the status quo tradition of its rule (Trump for instance).
Though I don't want Trump as president I do want the people to decide this not the career politicians protecting their own interests.

We've already discussed the stagnation in congress that is probably a driving factor for "fighting the establishment". When you have a group who uses partisan hate as a reason to not get anything done it is time to change things. Time to overhaul the system really though I don't think we are quite there yet.
 
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So you would never vote for a Muslim then either.

Just for the record, most of the people I have ever voted for were Christians, but it was not their religious affiliation that made me vote for them.

I might vote for a muslim. It depends upon circumstances.

Strange reply Reverend, very strange reply. :confused:
 
Just for the record, most of the people I have ever voted for were Christians, but it was not their religious affiliation that made me vote for them.

I might vote for a muslim. It depends upon circumstances.

Strange reply Reverend, very strange reply. :confused:



Point being is people claim they would vote for a Muslim president. however you find me one Muslim who would say the US Constitution comes before the quran. Cruz in an orthodox christian and I agreee, dude that puts his own religion above the laws he is sworn to uphold, bothers me.
 
Point being is people claim they would vote for a Muslim president. however you find me one Muslim who would say the US Constitution comes before the quran. Cruz in an orthodox christian and I agreee, dude that puts his own religion above the laws he is sworn to uphold, bothers me.

Perhaps you should contact the office of Keith Ellison, congressman from I think Michigan. They might be able to tell you if Ellison supports the Koran over the USC. I don't know the answer.
 
Perhaps you should contact the office of Keith Ellison, congressman from I think Michigan. They might be able to tell you if Ellison supports the Koran over the USC. I don't know the answer.


Well, one can probably guess by his dodging the direct question here:

 
How did he dodge the question? He replied that the US Constitution was the bedrock of American law, or words to that effect. How do you want him to answer?

He gave the right answer, considering he was running for office.
 
Then your definition applies to nearly all government officials - or at least those on the national level. It is extremely difficult to run for and successfully obtain a national position without previously having or actively obtaining during the course of your political career a disproportionate wealth and power.

That be the case, then they are all guilty of perversion and disrespect towards the ideals of the Founding Fathers, and should be immediately sanctioned by all Americans.
 
How did he dodge the question? He replied that the US Constitution was the bedrock of American law, or words to that effect. How do you want him to answer?

He gave the right answer, considering he was running for office.



"I believe the constitution which has been ammended 25 times is the um bedrock of american law" leaves open that the USC can be ammended to support sharia law.

He then changes the topic to "banning sharia law"...

at no point does he say "no, I believe the US Constitution is supreme to sharia, or koran based law".
 
"I believe the constitution which has been ammended 25 times is the um bedrock of american law" leaves open that the USC can be ammended to support sharia law.

He then changes the topic to "banning sharia law"...

at no point does he say "no, I believe the US Constitution is supreme to sharia, or koran based law".

OK, I see--he did not word his answer the way you wanted it worded.

Yes Rev, a very substantive objection. :roll: You object to a truthful answer because you don't like it.
 
OK, I see--he did not word his answer the way you wanted it worded.

Yes Rev, a very substantive objection. :roll: You object to a truthful answer because you don't like it.

Meanwhile, trump didn't denounce duke, even though he did multiple times, but that's somehow "different".


he didn't say he's against sharia law. that's my point.
 
So I think it is safe to say that the "establishment" is a bit more amorphous than the fairly simplistic definition that I gave. But you have to admit that it is nearly impossible (there are very few political landscapes that have allowed a true independent like Bernie to survive for so long) to obtain a degree of experience without becoming linked to special interest. After all, the term "special interest" is a fairly amorphous notion that could be attached to the collective opinion of your constituents.

I agree with most of this, hell I agree with all of it. Only I would add the name to Cruz alongside Bernie's... in fact I would love to see them matched up head to head as both seem to be the most true representatives of the two ideological extremes. Extremes being, by definition, more solid in their cores than those who move middlewards.

Cruz, the media says, is hated. Why? He has often in his short time there taken on his own establishment, bottom to top. Probably is hated. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...s-mitch-mcconnell-a-liar-on-the-senate-floor/ That is Cruz calling his own party leader, Mitch old boy, a liar. And its the right thing to say, only if because its true. In one of the worst ways, true.

Pretty gutsy. Have seen him take on hecklers in close quarters and give them a voice... then goes on to explain, without malice, his own considered viewpoint. Know its a bit off topic, but bringing it back to close the circle, the establishment are the folks that have always, at least in political time, been used to running things, getting their man in, getting their way, silencing others in backroom deals little doubt. The Ones that like things just as they are, rules already favoring who they favor.

Watch the money, as is so often true.
 
Meanwhile, trump didn't denounce duke, even though he did multiple times, but that's somehow "different".


he didn't say he's against sharia law. that's my point.

I think the question he was asked was something like "which is superior, US Constitution or sharia"?

He answered that the USC was the bedrock of US law.

I find it sadly amusing that so many americans are so very afraid of "sharia law"
 
,,l,, the establishment, it's an oligarchy at best, and it should be eradicated.

TRUMP 2016

YES WE CAN
 
I think the question he was asked was something like "which is superior, US Constitution or sharia"?

He answered that the USC was the bedrock of US law.

I find it sadly amusing that so many americans are so very afraid of "sharia law"



You said:
Perhaps you should contact the office of Keith Ellison, congressman from I think Michigan. They might be able to tell you if Ellison supports the Koran over the USC. I don't know the answer.



lady: "what should be the law forever the us constitution or sharia law and what should be supreme the sharia law or us constitution?"


Ellison: "I believe the usc that has been amended over 25 times is uhm the bedrock of American law".

Then he proceeds to lament how people want to ban sharia law.



he states a historical fact, not his personal beliefs, then changes the subject.



I'm not afraid of sharia law, which is an oppressive, homophobic, mysoginistic system of islamic law. I am simply pointing out, the guy you used as an example, actually really didn't answer the question.
 
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