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The Left's Problem With Jews[W:59]

Re: The Left's Problem With Jews

Andalublue said:
Of course they're aware of that fact, it's just that he's the wrong kind of Jew, like Kauffman quoted earlier, and Chomsky, and Finkelstein, and just about any anti-Zionist Jew who pokes his/her head above the parapet.
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Do you realize that Sanders, Chomsky and Finkelstein are all atheists and not adherents of the Jewish religion? Why would Jews and/or Israelis want NONBELIEVERS speaking for them and their religion?
 
Re: The Left's Problem With Jews

Lord Tammerlain said:
Anti Semitism, I doubt is growing among the left as American Jews tend to be left leaning towards domestic politics.
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I'll clarify: antisemitism is not a universal Liberal trait, because as you correctly observe American Jews are predominantly left leaning. However, the growing antisemitism that is observed, especially as it tends to revolve around the issue of Israel, is growing in the left side of the political spectrum.

Lord Tammerlain said:
Criticism of Israel, definitely is higher among the American left then the right. Especially in US post secondary schools, I strongly doubt those student groups are anti Semitic as they are most likely the groups protesting against racism, sexism, and so on. Now I expect some will say why are they not protesting against countries like Saudi Arabia, Pakistan or Russia, I am sure many do. But like protests against South Africa, they might be targeting a foreign government that perhaps could be changed from western public opinion
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The government of Israel is not exclusively focused on. It's the Jewish citizens that are bearing the onus as well. Again, you can focus exclusively on Israel if you want, but you must be prepared to accept massive double standards. You must be prepared to acknowledge where you would never apply the same standard to any other sovereign country, or acknowledge why the practices of countries a thousand times worse than Israel are accepted as shrugworthy at worst. Such double standards are glaring and irrational, and such irrationality is the arena of bigotry.
 
Re: The Left's Problem With Jews

Cavendish said:
Do you realize that Sanders, Chomsky and Finkelstein are all atheists and not adherents of the Jewish religion? Why would Jews and/or Israelis want NONBELIEVERS speaking for them and their religion?
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Even Orthodox Jews don't especially raise a fuss about the practicing status of other Jews, let alone non-orthodox Jews.
 
Re: The Left's Problem With Jews

Cavendish said:
Do you realize that Sanders, Chomsky and Finkelstein are all atheists and not adherents of the Jewish religion? Why would Jews and/or Israelis want NONBELIEVERS speaking for them and their religion?
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You seem to assume that being Jewish is all about the religion. The state of Israel was not established as a religious state, quite the opposite. In their Declaration of Independence they specified that the new nation:

will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations.
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Plenty of Jews are non-religious, anti-Zionist and of the left politically. Not all of them are trying to explain away their conversion to neo-conservatism and neo-imperialism by raising the spectre of anti-semitism. I've no doubt that there are anti-semites on the left, but no more, and probably considerably less so that on the right of the spectrum.
 
Re: The Left's Problem With Jews

Cavendish said:
Do you realize that Sanders, Chomsky and Finkelstein are all atheists and not adherents of the Jewish religion? Why would Jews and/or Israelis want NONBELIEVERS speaking for them and their religion?
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You don't know much about Jews, do you?

U.S. Jews see being Jewish as more a matter of ancestry, culture and values than of religious observance. Six-in-ten say, for example, that being Jewish is mainly a matter of culture or ancestry, compared with 15% who say it is mainly a matter of religion. Roughly seven-in-ten say remembering the Holocaust and leading an ethical life are essential to what it means to them to be Jewish, while far fewer say observing Jewish law is a central component of their Jewish identity. And two-thirds of Jews say that a person can be Jewish even if he or she does not believe in God.

Pew Research Center
Chapter 3: Jewish Identity | Pew Research Center
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... and that sentiment is not unique to American Judaism.
 
Re: The Left's Problem With Jews

There's a lot of enmity between jews and blacks - and the lefts embracing of racial spoils and identity politics have created enmity between jews and the left.
 
Re: The Left's Problem With Jews

LowDown said:
There is no light between the anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism of the left. It has never been about giving up "occupied" territories. It's about whether Israel should exist at all, whether Jews should have a place to live at all.

Deny a people the right to defend themselves and their homes and you deny them the right to live at all.

The left's problem with Jews has a long and miserable history - FT.com
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How does BS square that circle?
 
Re: The Left's Problem With Jews

Captain Adverse said:
There is no "problem with the Jews."

The only issue is whether or not guilt over our political naivete and intentional blindness which allowed the social pogroms and ultimately the Nazi Final Solution pre-1950 is sufficient to keep us offering blind support for the Nation of Israel.

Personally, I think they are perfectly capable of handling their own affairs without the support or interference of the U.S. government. We should stop intervening in the Middle East either for Oil or the sake of Israel. IMO it is time they stood on their own two feet.
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Though, I quite see your point, I also see a push into the area by an autocratic regime that recalls 1930s Europe.
 
Re: The Left's Problem With Jews

LowDown said:
There is no light between the anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism of the left. It has never been about giving up "occupied" territories. It's about whether Israel should exist at all, whether Jews should have a place to live at all.

Deny a people the right to defend themselves and their homes and you deny them the right to live at all.

The left's problem with Jews has a long and miserable history - FT.com
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I'm curious. Do you ever post ANYTHING that is not ridiculous right wing propaganda and/or overgeneralizations?
 
Re: The Left's Problem With Jews

X Factor said:
Let's be real here. Not a single person on the left here is going to acknowledge that any flaw, much less this one, is even possible.
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REALLY? You KNOW I'm not going to let this one go. There are some on the left who absolutely see any attack on Obama as racist. We see some of them right here at DP. We also see some on the left who, in a subtle way, do attack Jews by attacking Israel. We also see some on the right who attack Obama because he is black. And we see some on the right who attack Israel because the majority are Jewish.

Now, instead of constantly bitching about what those on the left do or don't do, how about just acknowledging that there are jerks on both sides, but that most on both sides don't fall into any of the categories I mentioned above. I'd bet that things would go much better for you when you argue a position.
 
Re: The Left's Problem With Jews

LowDown said:
There is no light between the anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism of the left. It has never been about giving up "occupied" territories. It's about whether Israel should exist at all, whether Jews should have a place to live at all.

Deny a people the right to defend themselves and their homes and you deny them the right to live at all.

The left's problem with Jews has a long and miserable history - FT.com
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It's all about fashion for PC Nazis. They like to pat themselves on the back for being so 'progressive n stuff', never mind how shallow and narcissistic it actually is, and baseless. This article explains a lot of it, in an historical context.

Being Leftist and Anti-Semitic in Germany - Susanne Urban

America's faux 'peace left' thought Euros were just wonderful sophisticates and all they fell right in line with the fashion trends there. Bo Bos are like that, herd animals.
 
Re: The Left's Problem With Jews

Oberon said:
It's all about fashion for PC Nazis. They like to pat themselves on the back for being so 'progressive n stuff', never mind how shallow and narcissistic it actually is, and baseless. This article explains a lot of it, in an historical context.

Being Leftist and Anti-Semitic in Germany - Susanne Urban

America's faux 'peace left' thought Euros were just wonderful sophisticates and all they fell right in line with the fashion trends there. Bo Bos are like that, herd animals.
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Great link, thanks.

How anyone can actually boast about sympathising with genocide bombers and still expect to be seen as a decent human being I do not understand.
 
Re: The Left's Problem With Jews

Sweden said:
Great link, thanks.

How anyone can actually boast about sympathising with genocide bombers and still expect to be seen as a decent human being I do not understand.
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the article focuses on Germany but imo Great Britain is more anti-semitic on both the 'left' and 'right wings than Germany is, at least as far as their press is concerned, but then that's probably because I read more English press than German. The far right anti-semites don't usually get elected to offices in Europe, but the faux 'leftists' do, so they are the biggest menace in real life, and the more dangerous idiots.
 
Re: The Left's Problem With Jews

CaptainCourtesy said:
REALLY? You KNOW I'm not going to let this one go. There are some on the left who absolutely see any attack on Obama as racist. We see some of them right here at DP. We also see some on the left who, in a subtle way, do attack Jews by attacking Israel. We also see some on the right who attack Obama because he is black. And we see some on the right who attack Israel because the majority are Jewish.

Now, instead of constantly bitching about what those on the left do or don't do, how about just acknowledging that there are jerks on both sides, but that most on both sides don't fall into any of the categories I mentioned above. I'd bet that things would go much better for you when you argue a position.
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I think my tactic is not so much to persuade, it's to be annoying enough that I inspire folks to want to prove me wrong. :D
 
Re: The Left's Problem With Jews

Extreme outliers aside, I rarely see many anti-Semitic remarks on these forums or anywhere really (though there are some forums I don't visit). What I DO see increasingly is opposition to blind loyalty to Israel and it is a topic which is quite political. Since Republicans tend to be unwaveringly in favor of ever increasing support for Israel, Democrats, apparently, have to take the opposite side.

The problem I have with the unwavering support of Israel is twofold. First, the idea an ally, no matter how close, can never do wrong is absurd. Regardless of our affiliation with someone, we should have the ability to objectively critique their actions. Second of all, and this is more politically based, we hear from Republicans all the time about "out of control spending" and that we can't spend money on social programs because we don't have the money, yet when it comes to spending our money on foreign citizens, there seemingly cannot be a limit to the amount we give to them. Why can we spend so much on another country's citizens, but not our own? I have a serious problem with that.
X Factor said:
I think my tactic is...to be annoying
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Congratulations, you're doing a fabulous job. ;)
 
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Re: The Left's Problem With Jews

Slyfox696 said:
Extreme outliers aside, I rarely see many anti-Semitic remarks on these forums or anywhere really (though there are some forums I don't visit). What I DO see increasingly is opposition to blind loyalty to Israel and it is a topic which is quite political. Since Republicans tend to be unwaveringly in favor of ever increasing support for Israel, Democrats, apparently, have to take the opposite side.

The problem I have with the unwavering support of Israel is twofold. First, the idea an ally, no matter how close, can never do wrong is absurd. Regardless of our affiliation with someone, we should have the ability to objectively critique their actions. Second of all, and this is more politically based, we hear from Republicans all the time about "out of control spending" and that we can't spend money on social programs because we don't have the money, yet when it comes to spending our money on foreign citizens, there seemingly cannot be a limit to the amount we give to them. Why can we spend so much on another country's citizens, but not our own? I have a serious problem with that.
Congratulations, you're doing a fabulous job. ;)
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It's a gift.
 
Re: The Left's Problem With Jews

LowDown said:
There is no light between the anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism of the left. It has never been about giving up "occupied" territories. It's about whether Israel should exist at all, whether Jews should have a place to live at all.

Deny a people the right to defend themselves and their homes and you deny them the right to live at all.

The left's problem with Jews has a long and miserable history - FT.com
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I'll ignore the typical rantings about "the left" and simply note: American Jews overwhelmingly vote Democrat because they put their country over Israel issues and overwhelmingly support the Democrats stance as compared to Republicans. They may have big problems with the way the Democrats behave on Israel, but have bigger problems with the way Republicans behave on all the other domestic issues.

It's quite *odd* to say that there is a "problem with the Jews" because you think "the Jews" should be beholden to vote for whichever party seems to favor Israel more strongly at the moment.




**I'm being charitable.
 
Re: The Left's Problem With Jews

Captain Adverse said:
Personally, I think they are perfectly capable of handling their own affairs without the support or interference of the U.S. government. We should stop intervening in the Middle East either for Oil or the sake of Israel. IMO it is time they stood on their own two feet.
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Given the amounts we're willing to spend on a jet that the Pentagon says it doesn't even want, I don't think a few billion a year is too much to pay to have a solid ally in the Middle East.

We should probably also stop intervening in the Middle East, but some instances seem rather necessary even if palatable. For example, if a particular country is letting terrorists operate out of it to the extent that they can inflict thousands of casualties on US soil...
 
Re: The Left's Problem With Jews

X Factor said:
Why not? Criticism of Obama equates to racism according to some on the left.
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I've heard that said many times since 2008, but I honesty cannot remember anyone ever identifying someone "on the left" claiming that any criticism of Obama is "racism". With half of America on the left, it really shouldn't be hard to find an example of "some" saying something that broad.




However, if we get into questions of why 40% of GOPers polled said Obama was not born in the United States and another 20% weren't sure.....

...with similar numbers questioning his religion....

....it does seem rather suspicious that the only sitting President ever to endure such suspicions just so happens to be black.






X Factor said:
Let's be real here. Not a single person on the left here is going to acknowledge that any flaw, much less this one, is even possible.
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You're claiming that "some" on the left say that any criticism of Obama is racism, and your explanation for why you cannot provide any examples of anyone on the left saying that is that not a single person......would say it?

Let's be real here.

"Criticism of Obama equates to racism according to some on the left" is a false claim made by persons on the right when they want to criticize Obama without using facts or argument...
 
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Re: The Left's Problem With Jews

Lord Tammerlain said:
Re Your last sentence

Is that not what Israel is doing to the Palestinians?
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You mean when Israel shuts down rocket attacks and terror tunnels? Is that the sort of Palestinian "self defense" you are talking about?

If the Palestinians stopped attacking Israel there would be peace in the Levant.
 
Re: The Left's Problem With Jews

Mr Person said:
I'll ignore the typical rantings about "the left" and simply note: American Jews overwhelmingly vote Democrat because they put their country over Israel issues and overwhelmingly support the Democrats stance as compared to Republicans.
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They say that is changing to some extent.

They may have big problems with the way the Democrats behave on Israel, but have bigger problems with the way Republicans behave on all the other domestic issues.
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American Jews vote left because most of them don't care about Israel or Judaism. They are the least religious group in the USA. They care about secular leftism, which is their "religion". If they are switching sides it's probably because they realize that they are as much targets of the anti-Semitism of the left as any Jew. They are perhaps increasingly alarmed at anti-Semitic rhetoric coming from the Universities and such.

It's quite *odd* to say that there is a "problem with the Jews" because you think "the Jews" should be beholden to vote for whichever party seems to favor Israel more strongly at the moment.
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The issue is the anti-Semitism of the left, which is quite obvious. It's the left's problem with Jews that is under discussion. People who care about Judaism, who are religious, tend care about Israel.
 
Re: The Left's Problem With Jews

LowDown said:
You mean when Israel shuts down rocket attacks and terror tunnels? Is that the sort of Palestinian "self defense" you are talking about?

If the Palestinians stopped attacking Israel there would be peace in the Levant.
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And only if they don't try to defend their homes and accept the theft of their land
 
Re: The Left's Problem With Jews

LowDown said:
There is no light between the anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism of the left. It has never been about giving up "occupied" territories. It's about whether Israel should exist at all, whether Jews should have a place to live at all.

Deny a people the right to defend themselves and their homes and you deny them the right to live at all.

The left's problem with Jews has a long and miserable history - FT.com
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It's hardly a Jewish thing. It's just the left consistent issue with fruitcake authoritarian religious conservatives of any faith.
 
Re: The Left's Problem With Jews

LowDown said:
There is no light between the anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism of the left. It has never been about giving up "occupied" territories. It's about whether Israel should exist at all, whether Jews should have a place to live at all.

Deny a people the right to defend themselves and their homes and you deny them the right to live at all.

The left's problem with Jews has a long and miserable history - FT.com
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I agree with you 100 percent wonder full quote [qoute]Deny a people the right to defend themselves and their homes and you deny them the right to live at all. [/quote]. We should give Palestinians their own country. Just wondering Why US is the only country in the world which keeps vetoing the Palestinians right to own and have a sovereign and recognized nation? Any thoughts on that?

Also just and FYI...I am guessing you haven't lived in Israel or Jerusalem... I have, and I can tell you...there is at least 30 to 40% of Jews that live in Israel who despise the zionism of their country.

I personally don't have problem with israel. Regardless of the past they are here, have done much with better with the country and land than previous residents. So they deserve all the rights to that land!

Diving Mullah
 
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